Hamas-Israel News Thread

[Ana the Ist]

Because Israeli spokespeople and certain media outlets repeat the "human shields" narrative incessantly doesn't make it more true.

It's not merely Israeli "spokespeople". This is a common terrorist tactic used by many groups in the middle east and worldwide.


Even Hamas has admitted to using this tactic.

Hamas admits using civilians as human shields - All Arab News

Israel accuses Hamas of double war crimes for such fighting – firing at Israeli civilians from within civilian population centers

allarab.news

During the first and second intifada...the suicide bomb was used frequently and in situations that would result in the most deaths, like aboard public transportation.

UN admits Palestinians fired rockets from UNRWA schools - UN Watch

The UN finally investigated the Palestinian storing of rockets in UNRWA schools and their use of the schools to launch rockets against Israel, all of which constitute grave violations of the Geneva Conventions and international humanitarian law. Key findings gleaned from the UN report: Hamas...

unwatch.org

You certainly don't have to believe that these terrorists use human shields....but it does beg the question, what exactly do you attribute the success of these terrorist groups that have had success against traditional armies to?

The actual evidence for this is scanty and also ignores the reality of Hamas in Gaza.

There's more examples than I can count.

Again, you don't have to believe it. It's not really a matter of contention though. Believing Hamas and other similar terrorist organizations don't regularly violate humanitarian rights and commit war crimes is akin to believing the Earth is flat or the Holocaust didn't happen.

You're entitled to believe whatever you want....but it's not really something that anyone familiar with the evidence disagrees on. Even Hamas knows they commit war crimes by using human shields.

Hamas doesn't live in recognizable separate barracks because they don't have such things.

That's not really relevant to whether or not they deliberately target civilians or deliberately use them as human shields.

They live and sleep in their homes which are spread over a wide area of Gaza (those that are still standing that is). Also this idea that Hamas is a fixed subset of the people of Gaza is wrong.

Fixed subset?

That doesn't mean all adult Palestinians in Gaza are in Hamas or support Hamas. The Israeli avowed intent to "destroy Hamas" is not feasible and I believe they know this to be the case.

It's entirely feasible. I outlined one of the ways it's feasible to do to the Taliban in Afghanistan. It's far easier to do to Hamas in Palestine.

Netanyahu will do or say anything to cling on to power including killing very many Palestinian civilians, old people and children - to be seen to be doing something.

I'm not sure what killing the elderly or children does for his support at the polls. If that were the case, he wouldn't be telling people to evacuate parts of Gaza nor would he warn buildings filled with civilians before bombing them.

Quite a few of the Hamas leadership are in Qatar and possibly in Iran as well (and Lebanon).

That may be true...but without any forces to fight under their leadership they're effectively neutered. There are African warlords who were wanted internationally for war crimes and committed atrocities in several places in Africa....but now barely lead a few hundreds soldiers and aren't considered a major threat anymore because they live in exile from their homelands.

Hamas leadership in Iran isn't much of a problem for Israel. It's more of a problem for Iran. They won't want these terrorists giving Israelis a valid reason to infiltrate Iran.

Is Israel going to send special forces into every country where parts of Hamas are and kill them?

They have in the past. Israelis sent spies and special forces to hunt down and murder ex-nazis for decades after WW2. They sent more spies and assassins to kill Palestinian terrorists and leaders after the Munich terrorist attacks.

They've got a solid reputation for doing exactly that and are quite good at it.

This article from 2014 is well worth reading on this. It's remarkable how little has changed. A key line on the Israeli claims about human shields is: "These claims have not been backed up by independent reporting from international journalists covering the war from Gaza."
from In Gaza, Hamas fighters are among civilians. There is nowhere else for them to go

I quoted Hamas leadership and UN reports above. Who exactly do you need to hear it from before you believe it? How about everyday Palestinian citizens?

Israel has publicly warned Palestinian civilians to flee northern Gaza....because they don't want innocent people killed.

Hamas has told Palestinian civilians to stay....because if they fled, Hamas terrorists wouldn't be able to use them as shields and they would die.

It's not very complicated.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do your screenshots really need to be this big?

It's from your link...I assumed you missed it somehow and didn't want you to miss it again.

Killing 449 Israeli forces and 881 Israeli civilians is not avoiding military targets.

If Hamas wanted to target Israeli military forces....there's a literal wall of them....all along the Gaza/Israel border.

They could attack only Israeli military forces if they wanted to. Israel doesn't hide behind its citizens. Instead, Hamas launches rockets over the wall at civilians. That's just reality....it's pretty obvious to everyone.

Not all Israeli soldiers are standing just in front of the wall so what is the point of this huge picture. Do you think making it so large strengthens your point? It doesn't

It's a picture. I didn't take it. If you're upset....be upset at the photographer.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

We should bomb Iran’s power grid and let them be busy with that for a few years.

Leaving aside the question as to whether the US needs a war with Iran, no small endeavor, Washington is going to do that after all of their hand-wringing about the strikes against the Ukrainian power grid?

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said the “narrowly-tailored strikes” were a response to a series of assaults beginning Oct. 17, which he said had resulted in minor injuries to 21 U.S. service members. An American contractor died after suffering cardiac arrest during one incident.

“The United States does not seek conflict and has no intention nor desire to engage in further hostilities, but these Iranian-backed attacks against U.S. forces are unacceptable and must stop,” Austin said in a statement. “If attacks by Iran’s proxies against U.S. forces continue, we will not hesitate to take further necessary measures to protect our people.”

The strikes come days after President Biden, facing increasing pressure to retaliate for the attacks, issued a warning to Iran’s supreme leader that the United States would act if further provoked.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/26/us-strikes-iran-syria/

Those US forces are present in Syria in violation of international law. These US attacks are nothing but pure aggression.

 

[BPPLEE]

Leaving aside the question as to whether the US needs a war with Iran, no small endeavor, Washington is going to do that after all of their hand-wringing about the strikes against the Ukrainian power grid?


Those US forces are present in Syria in violation of international law. These US attacks are nothing but pure aggression.

The attacks are in response to drone atracks on US Forces but if you want to say that Biden is in the wrong I won‘t argue with you

 

[Vanellus]

And that's my point. It's not impossible to destroy a terrorist organization or reduce it to such a low state it cannot effectively threaten anyone.

The Taliban have not been destroyed or reduced to such a low state.

 

[Vanellus]

It's not merely Israeli "spokespeople". This is a common terrorist tactic used by many groups in the middle east and worldwide.

Assertion is not evidence

Even Hamas has admitted to using this tactic.

Hamas admits using civilians as human shields - All Arab News

Israel accuses Hamas of double war crimes for such fighting – firing at Israeli civilians from within civilian population centers

allarab.news

The Hamas spokesman said they had moved their "military HQ" out of the civilian areas. But these aren't going to be huge complexes like the Pentagon. In the article I linked it stated "Hamas and other militants are embedded in the population. Their fighters are not quartered in military barracks, but sleep at night in their family homes." So what is your contention here. This is the reality of living in a place as densely populated as Hong Kong

During the first and second intifada...the suicide bomb was used frequently and in situations that would result in the most deaths, like aboard public transportation.

Suicide bombs and human shields are different.

UN admits Palestinians fired rockets from UNRWA schools - UN Watch

The UN finally investigated the Palestinian storing of rockets in UNRWA schools and their use of the schools to launch rockets against Israel, all of which constitute grave violations of the Geneva Conventions and international humanitarian law. Key findings gleaned from the UN report: Hamas...

unwatch.org

I didn't write that there was no evidence.

Fixed subset?

People may be joining Hamas at this time.

It's entirely feasible. I outlined one of the ways it's feasible to do to the Taliban in Afghanistan. It's far easier to do to Hamas in Palestine.

Yet no convincing example has been given. I've pointed out Hamas is not confined to Gaza.

I'm not sure what killing the elderly or children does for his support at the polls. If that were the case, he wouldn't be telling people to evacuate parts of Gaza nor would he warn buildings filled with civilians before bombing them.

Gazans were told to move to the south where many were bombed and killed.

That may be true...but without any forces to fight under their leadership they're effectively neutered.

There might be many Arabs who want to join Hamas.

Hamas leadership in Iran isn't much of a problem for Israel. It's more of a problem for Iran. They won't want these terrorists giving Israelis a valid reason to infiltrate Iran.

The Iranian government support Hamas. Hamas isn't fighting against Iran

They have in the past. Israelis sent spies and special forces to hunt down and murder ex-nazis for decades after WW2. They sent more spies and assassins to kill Palestinian terrorists and leaders after the Munich terrorist attacks.

They've got a solid reputation for doing exactly that and are quite good at it.

Yes but what would be the consequences for peace in the Middle East?

 

[Vanellus]

It's from your link...I assumed you missed it somehow and didn't want you to miss it again.



If Hamas wanted to target Israeli military forces....there's a literal wall of them....all along the Gaza/Israel border.

They could attack only Israeli military forces if they wanted to. Israel doesn't hide behind its citizens. Instead, Hamas launches rockets over the wall at civilians. That's just reality....it's pretty obvious to everyone.




It's a picture. I didn't take it. If you're upset....be upset at the photographer.

It was the unnecessary large size I commented on, not the content of the picture. Hamas would know that attacking the kibbutzim would mean engaging with the IDF. I recall 1500 Hamas were killed during the Oct 7 attack. I hadn't "missed it".
1,500 Hamas Fighters Found Dead in Israel

 

[essentialsaltes]

FWIW, an independent WaPo analysis supports the conclusion that it was an errant Palestinian rocket hit the hospital grounds.

A barrage and a midair explosion: What visual evidence shows about the Gaza hospital blast​

Videos analyzed by The Post reveal that rockets were launched from Gaza in the direction of the hospital 44 seconds before an explosion there​

 

[rjs330]

It's not.

In war, the idea is to achieve a situation where you have achieved your objectives, while denying you enemy the ability to achieve theirs.

War MAY include killing more of the enemy than die on your side, but it also may not. See, for instance, Russia in WW2, Vietnam in the 1950s through 1970s, or the multi-party melee of the Chinese civil war in the 1940s. In all these conflicts, the victors suffered substantially more casualties than their opponents, but they were still able to achieve their conditions of victory.

Yes you are correct. But I think he shares something of himself and the difference between good people and bad ones. He's a good person who cares about the people I involved and has a hard time thinking in the evil way which says we don't care about the body count. And this is clear in what is happening in Gaza. The Israeli's are trying to hd down the death of its people while Hamas cold care less. This should tell us something about who has the higher moral authority in the region.

 

[rjs330]

If no one will let them in, where do they go ..... this must be Egypt's fault now?

Not just Egypts but all the Arab countries in the area.

 

[rjs330]

I think it's reasonable to assume life in Gaza is extremely difficult and Palestinians who live elsewhere have it much better. I've seen enough Palestinian college students protesting lately to understand how much better it is to be a Palestinian anywhere but Palestine.

Because....

1.. Israel is controlling the imports and exports into Palestine for national security.

And...

2. A significant percentage of the Palestinian population intends to use violence against Israel forever.

I have been of the opinion that the dissolution of Palestine and evacuation of all Palestinians is the best solution for future generations of Israelis and Palestinians. It may sound harsh....but the truth isn't always something that gives people a warm fuzzy.

There's a few ways of achieving this....

1. Peaceful agreement. Clearly many Palestinians would prefer to stay and fight it out, but if a peaceful exodus is an option that enough Palestinians tske....the few hardliners would probably find their position untenable at some point.

2. Slow territorial takeover. We can generally describe the current Israeli strategy as this.

3. A negotiated takeover. An agreement along the lines of "for every rocket, mortar, or munitions fired into Israeli territory....an acre of Palestinian land can be legally annexed. For every murder of an Israeli citizen....10 acres of land can be annexed. In trade for the good faith agreement to this treaty...Palestine regains full control of its borders.

4. Military force. After an October 7th style attack on Israel...they simply decide they've had enough and pursue a full military takeover of Palestinian territory and force Palestinian refugees onto whomever will take them.

I actually like #3. It provides an incentive for Palestinians to hold onto their land and not attack Israel. Perhaps. I don't know that it would work cause the players have never shown themselves to be able to control themselves. I mean the consequences of these attacks have always been hanging over their head and it hasn't stopped them yet. But at least it would be an agreement that the rest of the world could acknowledge exists. Not that it would stop anyone from criticizing Israel if they took land after being shot at.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

Not just Egypts but all the Arab countries in the area.

All of who for the most part have the same goal as Hamas, the destruction of Israel. None of the other Countries care that Hamas is using the deaths (the more the better) of Palestinian's to try and make Israel look like the aggressor.

 

[Red Gold]

I’ve heard conflicting accounts, where’d you get your information?

nearly ALL the news agree on that point now ….

 

[Red Gold]

HERE (CNN) Or HERE (Politico).

true!

 

[BPPLEE]

true!

Yeah. They got it wrong to start with but what did they expect when Hamas was their source

 

[essentialsaltes]

Near-total internet and cellular blackout hits Gaza as Israel ramps up strikes​

The largest telecommunications provider in Gaza that was still largely operational, Paltel, said Friday that it had suffered a complete disruption of all services after heavy Israeli bombing earlier in the day destroyed its last remaining infrastructure connecting it to the global internet.

“Today’s incident is the largest single disruption to internet connectivity in Gaza since the beginning of the conflict and will be perceived by many as a total or near-total internet blackout,” Mater said. “The loss of international routes is likely to severely limit residents’ ability to communicate with the outside world.”

The Palestine Red Crescent Society issued a statement Friday saying ... “We have completely lost contact with the operations room in Gaza Strip and all our teams operating there"

 

[rjs330]

Near-total internet and cellular blackout hits Gaza as Israel ramps up strikes​

The largest telecommunications provider in Gaza that was still largely operational, Paltel, said Friday that it had suffered a complete disruption of all services after heavy Israeli bombing earlier in the day destroyed its last remaining infrastructure connecting it to the global internet.

“Today’s incident is the largest single disruption to internet connectivity in Gaza since the beginning of the conflict and will be perceived by many as a total or near-total internet blackout,” Mater said. “The loss of international routes is likely to severely limit residents’ ability to communicate with the outside world.”

The Palestine Red Crescent Society issued a statement Friday saying ... “We have completely lost contact with the operations room in Gaza Strip and all our teams operating there"

That's good. That probably helps keep Hamas from communicating properly. Communication disruption is a part of combat.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The Taliban have not been destroyed or reduced to such a low state.

Right...because we fight according to "just war" theory.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It was the unnecessary large size I commented on, not the content of the picture.

I guess you'll have to just deal with it.

Hamas would know that attacking the kibbutzim would mean engaging with the IDF.

Which they don't want to do.

I recall 1500 Hamas were killed during the Oct 7 attack. I hadn't "missed it".
1,500 Hamas Fighters Found Dead in Israel

Good.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Assertion is not evidence

What are you contesting? The fact that terrorists use human shields?

The Hamas spokesman said they had moved their "military HQ" out of the civilian areas.

Right....

In a speech to the head of the Hamas political bureau in Gaza after the end of the war between Hamas and Israel last month, Yahya Sinwar admitted that his organization has several military headquarters embedded in residential buildings – something Israel has been accusing the organization of all along.

Hamas has always denied the existence of military and security headquarters among Gaza residents. This contradicts videos published by the Israeli army which indicate that rockets were launched from among the residential areas.

Hamas has long claimed they don't use human shields. Israel claims they do...and that they stockpile weapons and organize headquarters inside residential buildings.

But these aren't going to be huge complexes like the Pentagon.

That doesn't matter.

In the article I linked it stated "Hamas and other militants are embedded in the population. Their fighters are not quartered in military barracks, but sleep at night in their family homes." So what is your contention here. This is the reality of living in a place as densely populated as Hong Kong

My contention is that Hamas uses human shields... which you were denying a post ago.

Suicide bombs and human shields are different.

My point was they're both war crimes.

I didn't write that there was no evidence.

Oh good.

People may be joining Hamas at this time.

Assertion isn't evidence.

Yet no convincing example has been given. I've pointed out Hamas is not confined to Gaza.

I pointed out the Shining Path as an example earlier....but if you want another one...

Joseph Kony - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That's infamous African terrorist Joseph Kony. He leads the Lord's Resistance Army....a terrorist organization once over 60,000 members strong. Now he's suspected of hiding in Darfur....with less than 100 followers.

Whatever dreams you have about terrorist organizations being impossible to defeat are just dreams....not reality.

Gazans were told to move to the south where many were bombed and killed.

Assertions aren't evidence.

There might be many Arabs who want to join Hamas.

Maybe they want to abandon Hamas. I don't see any point in speculation.

The Iranian government support Hamas. Hamas isn't fighting against Iran

Well...they support Hamas in Palestine. I don't know if they'd support Hamas attacking from Iran. They'd certainly risk retaliation from the US and other Israeli allies. They'd also risk nuclear annihilation from Israel.

Yes but what would be the consequences for peace in the Middle East?

There is no peace in Palestine and Israel. Palestine launches hundreds if not thousands of rockets, mortars, and other munitions into Israel every year. I don't see any lasting peace while Palestinians still exist in Gaza and the West Bank.