Hamas-Israel News Thread

[wing2000]

How do you know the story is true?

The article names their sources. But yea, *any* story out of war zone may not be true. What a pointless question. You already stated you don't trust the NYT's . So be it. Move on.

 

[Chesterton]

My response was in the context of the previous posts exchanged between you and I. When I said "That works when fighting standing armies, not terrorist groups," I was referring to the subject we were discussing which was defeating Hamas. Bombing to soften up targets and destroying infrastructure benefits Hamas.

I agree it benefits Hamas in one respect: it will give the evil hate-mongers and the useful idiots something to point at and say "Israel bad!" The majority of us who have a shred of moral decency and intelligence will ignore that. Unfortunately, the evil and stupid have some prominent positions in media, and governments, and the United Nations. But if the bombing is a militarily useful step in destroying Hamas, then it must be done regardless.

My question was sincere. You failed to include Palestinians in your post and that's why I asked if you value the lives of Israeli soldiers over theirs. In my response to you, all lives have same value. I wasn't trying to twist anything and I apologize if it came across that way.

This is a long thread now, and I don't blame you for not seeing every post of mine. I haven't seen every post of yours. But previously in this thread I mentioned that I have Palestinian friends from church because my church is Antiochian. One family I know is from Bethlehem, West Bank, the other I don't remember where from exactly because my memory is bad and also because it doesn't matter to me. People are people. Yes I value all lives.

Having said that, I am cognizant of the fact that the people of Gaza elected the Hamas party, as the people of Germany elected the Nazi party. As Barack Obama once said "elections have consequences". And as they say on the internet "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes".

 

[JosephZ]

I am cognizant of the fact that the people of Gaza elected the Hamas party, as the people of Germany elected the Nazi party. As Barack Obama once said "elections have consequences". And as they say on the internet "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes".

Yes, elections do have consequences, but it's important to remember that the last election in Gaza was held a little over 17 years ago, in 2006. 70% of the population in Gaza is under the age of 30. This means more than 70% of Palestinians in Gaza today were either not born yet or were too young to vote when the 2006 election was held. When Hamas did win in 2006, it won with just 44% of the vote. This leaves only a tiny percentage (Less than 15% ?) of Palestinians alive today who voted Hamas into power. The overwhelming majority had nothing to do with it.

 

[Valletta]

Yes, elections do have consequences, but it's important to remember that the last election in Gaza was held a little over 17 years ago, in 2006. 70% of the population in Gaza is under the age of 30. This means more than 70% of Palestinians in Gaza today were either not born yet or were too young to vote when the 2006 election was held. When Hamas did win in 2006, it won with just 44% of the vote. This leaves only a tiny percentage (Less than 15% ?) of Palestinians alive today who voted Hamas into power. The overwhelming majority had nothing to do with it.

Fatah just barely lost and they too had a violent military wing. Unfortunately the people in Gaza have very much cooperated with Hamas and have failed to protest the numerous killings of Israelis over the years. It looked like a lot of people under 30 who did the butchering of babies, and every human being should be sickened by what Hamas did. Where are all of those under 30 who will stand up to Hamas, or at least protest what Hamas has done?

 

[rjs330]

Yes, elections do have consequences, but it's important to remember that the last election in Gaza was held a little over 17 years ago, in 2006. 70% of the population in Gaza is under the age of 30. This means more than 70% of Palestinians in Gaza today were either not born yet or were too young to vote when the 2006 election was held. When Hamas did win in 2006, it won with just 44% of the vote. This leaves only a tiny percentage (Less than 15% ?) of Palestinians alive today who voted Hamas into power. The overwhelming majority had nothing to do with it.

I don't see them protesting and trying to overthrow Hamas. Are you aware that the educational system there teaches the children to hate Jews and kill them? Their chidrens shows are filled with Jew hatred and the killing of Jews. The kids play kill the Jews games. So these 30 year olds have all grown up learning to hate and kill Jews.

These people do not think like us. And they do not behave like us. They are linked to death. They love death. That's why they suicide bomb. That's why they put their children and families in harms way. That's why they indiscriminately fire rockets into civilian areas.

They chose Hamas and they have not gotten rid of Hamas despite all those less than 30 year olds who have been educated to hate and kill Jews.

 

[rjs330]

Your opinion is noted.

Israeli families have suffered.
Palistinian families have suffered.

My question was specific to the Palistinian family looking for a safe place.

I don't know why you feel the eed to reframe the quesiton.

French families suffered German families suffered.

English families suffered German families suffered.

As if there is moral equivalence between the two. If there was France would still be under German control, there would be no Jews in Europe.

The same could be said for the Pacific Theater.

It makes things so much easier if we just totally ignore the state that seeks to protect their own people and an area that actively seeks and is committed to the extermination of the other people and who are willing to put their own people in harms way and sacrifice their own people in achieving that goal. It's easy to stand in the middle and claim moral equivalence between the two.

I don't know if you are trying to do that or not, but there are those that are.

 

[rjs330]

The moral equivalency is a bit much. The accusations against the Israeli's isz well for one of it comes from any Palestinian source it cannot be believed. But equating what Hamas has done and what Israel has done is patently absurd.

You can't equate deliberate shooting a baby in the head with aiming at an enemy rocket that is stationed behind an apartment building a citizens happen to get killed. On top of that noting that the citizens are there because enemy put them there. Not even close to moral equivalence.

And this whole thing of Palestinians vs Israelis in Gaza it might be interesting to note that Israelis have been the only ones expelled from Gaza in the last 20 years. 8000 of them in 2005.

And the refugees? Who is accepting the refugees form Palestine? Which Arab country is taking them in?

Meanwhile it's the Jews around the world who are in danger. Instead of the Palestinian areas being in danger after they massacred innocent people including babies, all the protests are pro Palestinian. All the violent protests are pro Palestinian. Jewish mosques have been attacked. You don't see the huge protests and violent protests in support of the Jews.

The Jew hatred/anti-Semetism is clear.

 

[Gene2memE]

In war the idea is to kill more of the enemy than die on your side.

It's not.

In war, the idea is to achieve a situation where you have achieved your objectives, while denying you enemy the ability to achieve theirs.

War MAY include killing more of the enemy than die on your side, but it also may not. See, for instance, Russia in WW2, Vietnam in the 1950s through 1970s, or the multi-party melee of the Chinese civil war in the 1940s. In all these conflicts, the victors suffered substantially more casualties than their opponents, but they were still able to achieve their conditions of victory.

This reminds me of the Japanese, a fanatical civilian population very much supportive of their military. As in Japan, the people of Gaza are not protesting the cowardly acts of Hamas. The Japanese could be brutal and sadistic, and they did kill babies at times, but even for them I think the targeting of babies would have hit them at some level of conscience.

I'd like to think that we've come some distance in our theory concerning the legality and prosecution of warfare since 1945.

Consider the US response to Japanese fanaticism - a mass bombing campaign that ended up deliberately targeting civilian population areas (copying the UK's "dehousing" campaign against Germany) with saturation attacks, and ultimately saw the use of two weapons of mass destruction on cities of only marginal military value.

These would be considered war crimes today, and rightly so.

So tragically, when you have such fanatical civilians who themselves are willing to kill Israelis and sacrifice their own children the "count" of lives sadly cannot be a matter of concern. They have targeted babies and other innocents, something Israel and the rest of the civilized world will not do, and there should be no quest to even out the numbers until the next attack by the jihadists.

Hamas is fanatical, and there is more than an echo of a death cult about its membership. Yes, Hamas has targeted "babies and other innocents" deliberately, as a matter of policy and as an integral prosecution of its war effort. It's a terrorist organisation that murdered its way into government, and continues to operate as such.

But, let's not pretend that the IDF's prosecution of its war against Hamas, both in the current conflict and in the recent past, has not seen them also deliberately and indiscriminately targeting civilians. You don't bomb a refugee camp by accident, particularly not when you come back 12 hours later and bomb the people undertaking rescue efforts. And then bomb it again the next day.

There's no following the laws of war there, which require distinction, precaution and proportionality. Those are principles that Israel is ostensibly committed to, and has a legal obligation to follow.

I'd love to see Hamas eliminated. It's done very little but bring misery to the Palestinian people for the last 20 or so years. But, I also dont think you can use Hamas' war crimes to excuse the war crimes of the IDF. "They did it first" is playground levels of reasoning.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

Per the IDF that was just interviewed on TBN, this is a battle between Evil and Light and ......... there will be peace only once the war is over.

I keep praying for all the hostages ...... the whole thing is just horrific

 

[wing2000]

French families suffered German families suffered.

English families suffered German families suffered.

As if there is moral equivalence between the two. If there was France would still be under German control, there would be no Jews in Europe.

The same could be said for the Pacific Theater.

It makes things so much easier if we just totally ignore the state that seeks to protect their own people and an area that actively seeks and is committed to the extermination of the other people and who are willing to put their own people in harms way and sacrifice their own people in achieving that goal. It's easy to stand in the middle and claim moral equivalence between the two.

I don't know if you are trying to do that or not, but there are those that are.

The point was the interviewed Palistinian families had no safe place to go. Whether it's the US, Russia or any other army, a basic rule of war is to provide safe passage for those wish to find safety.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

The point was the interviewed Palistinian families had no safe place to go. Whether it's the US, Russia or any other army, a basic rule of war is to provide safe passage for those wish to find safety.

If no one will let them in, where do they go ..... this must be Egypt's fault now?

 

[BPPLEE]

If no one will let them in, where do they go ..... this must be Egypt's fault now?

No Arab state will take them but somehow this is Israel’s fault

 

[Wings like Eagles]

This whole thing could just erupt into even more of a problem than it already is, I would not be surprised to see Isarel take out Hezbollah and engage Iran.

 

[BPPLEE]

This whole thing could just erupt into even more of a problem than it already is, I would not be surprised to see Isarel take out Hezbollah and engage Iran.

We should bomb Iran’s power grid and let them be busy with that for a few years.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

We should bomb Iran’s power grid and let them be busy with that for a few years.

Their proxies have been spratically attacking US troops in the middle east already, maybe give them somthing else to worry about, like their power grid.

 

[BPPLEE]

Their proxies have been spratically attacking US troops in the middle east already, maybe give them somthing else to worry about, like their power grid.

We just bombed their proxies in Syria

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[Wings like Eagles]

We just bombed their proxies in Syria

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Wow - things are happening fast for sure, this is very much a battle between good and evil, becoming obvious which side everyone is standing with.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, I don't think we can begin to appreciate the threat's Israeli's live with nor what it would be like growing up in Gaza with very limited rights.

I think it's reasonable to assume life in Gaza is extremely difficult and Palestinians who live elsewhere have it much better. I've seen enough Palestinian college students protesting lately to understand how much better it is to be a Palestinian anywhere but Palestine.

Because....

1.. Israel is controlling the imports and exports into Palestine for national security.

And...

2. A significant percentage of the Palestinian population intends to use violence against Israel forever.

I have been of the opinion that the dissolution of Palestine and evacuation of all Palestinians is the best solution for future generations of Israelis and Palestinians. It may sound harsh....but the truth isn't always something that gives people a warm fuzzy.

There's a few ways of achieving this....

1. Peaceful agreement. Clearly many Palestinians would prefer to stay and fight it out, but if a peaceful exodus is an option that enough Palestinians tske....the few hardliners would probably find their position untenable at some point.

2. Slow territorial takeover. We can generally describe the current Israeli strategy as this.

3. A negotiated takeover. An agreement along the lines of "for every rocket, mortar, or munitions fired into Israeli territory....an acre of Palestinian land can be legally annexed. For every murder of an Israeli citizen....10 acres of land can be annexed. In trade for the good faith agreement to this treaty...Palestine regains full control of its borders.

4. Military force. After an October 7th style attack on Israel...they simply decide they've had enough and pursue a full military takeover of Palestinian territory and force Palestinian refugees onto whomever will take them.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The US was and is a much more powerful military force than Afghanistan.

And that's my point. It's not impossible to destroy a terrorist organization or reduce it to such a low state it cannot effectively threaten anyone.

 

[wing2000]

We just bombed their proxies in Syria

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Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said the “narrowly-tailored strikes” were a response to a series of assaults beginning Oct. 17, which he said had resulted in minor injuries to 21 U.S. service members. An American contractor died after suffering cardiac arrest during one incident.

“The United States does not seek conflict and has no intention nor desire to engage in further hostilities, but these Iranian-backed attacks against U.S. forces are unacceptable and must stop,” Austin said in a statement. “If attacks by Iran’s proxies against U.S. forces continue, we will not hesitate to take further necessary measures to protect our people.”

The strikes come days after President Biden, facing increasing pressure to retaliate for the attacks, issued a warning to Iran’s supreme leader that the United States would act if further provoked.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/26/us-strikes-iran-syria/