How Does One Put A Pre-Trib Rapture Before “The Last Day”?

[oikonomia]

Oh ok. Sorry about that. Apparently I thought I was responding to another of David's posts to me and didn't notice it was you. I needed more coffee I guess, lol. Gimme a few and I'll give you a proper response. Or go ahead and ask your questions.

It happens. I've done it. Take your time.

 

[David Kent]

Actually it is not.

Jesus and the angels are coming to the earth for the final harvest. Matthew 13

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

Jesus is literally on the earth redeeming lost souls. The church has already been removed. Jesus gave you the interpretation of the parable. Jesus also claimed in Matthew 25, that He would be sitting on a throne in Jerusalem, and the angels would be gathering people out of all nations to stand in judgment. The Second Coming brings Jesus and the angels to the earth, while removing the church from the earth.

That is the reason why the church is not here on earth during the final harvest.

Matthew 13 actually tells us just the opposite. The weeds are removed first.
Matthew 13: 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

 

[DavidPT]

Actually it is not.

Jesus and the angels are coming to the earth for the final harvest. Matthew 13

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

Jesus is literally on the earth redeeming lost souls. The church has already been removed. Jesus gave you the interpretation of the parable. Jesus also claimed in Matthew 25, that He would be sitting on a throne in Jerusalem, and the angels would be gathering people out of all nations to stand in judgment. The Second Coming brings Jesus and the angels to the earth, while removing the church from the earth.

That is the reason why the church is not here on earth during the final harvest.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If you have this event happening first, can you not see that the text indicates so shall we ever be with the Lord? Yet, you have the church physically one place and have Christ physically another place, which then contradicts--- and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Not to mention, what happens if we factor the following in as well?


John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


How does what you are proposing equal this---that where I am, there ye may be also?

 

[David Kent]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If you have this event happening first, can you not see that the text indicates so shall we ever be with the Lord? Yet, you have the church physically one place and have Christ physically another place, which then contradicts--- and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Not to mention, what happens if we factor the following in as well?


John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


How does what you are proposing equal this---that where I am, there ye may be also?

Just posted what the word says.

 

[Divide]

That point of interest was that Peter's mention of the day of the Lord coming as a thief (2 Pet. 3:10) is not referring to
the time 1260 days mentioned in Revelation 12:6.

Peter's application of the day of the Lord coming as a thief is 1260 days + 1,000 years + "a little while" (Rev. 20:3, 7) afterwards His parousia spoken in the other verses I mentioned about "a thief " or "a thief in the night."

I think it's easy to confuse the two events (Rapture/2nd Coming) as one event. But they are two events. The Parousia is the 2nd Coming and the Rapture is not, He comes for His bride alone. 2nd Coming = Jesus returns to the earth...Rapture = He comes in the air and we meet Him there.

First tell me if you do not agree that 2 Pet. 3:10 pertains not to the end of the twelve hundred and sixty days mentioned in Rev. 12:6.

2 Peter 3:10-14
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

(Footnote (2nd Peter

1. 3:10 Other manuscripts read will be burned up; one early manuscript reads will be found destroyed.)

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless....KJV

Now I'm no Rabbi but this is something I have studied quite a bit about the rapture because of so much disagreement about it. I admit that I have not studied Revelation near as much as the rest of the scriptures but I'll take a whack at it.

If you keep on reading past verse 10 you will see in v12 it mentions the day of God, not the same phrasing as v10. Why would that be? (He just might be refrencing something else?!) The chapter sounds like instructions to live in peace, without spot or blemish and blameless Which in other scriptures is how the bride will be, without spot or blemish. (She has mad e herself ready and washed her clothes and is withut spot or blemish. (This qualifies her to be raptured.)

Geez, in v16 it says:

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction..../KJV

Yep, that's us Humans, lol! Slow learners. I think He wrote it like this hard to be understood, was His way of ensuring our diligence and berean attitude about searching out the answers with the help of the Holy Spirit.

So I incline towrds disagreeing that the 1260 days is talking about the bride in Revelation 12:6. In v1 of that chapter it tells you who it is talking about. It does sound like there is some symbolism going on but I think it is clear that it's not talking about, her, the Bride. Many of God's people will be left behind in the raoture because they are not ready yet and need more refining and learning. I think that is a refrence to those remaing christians upon the earth after the rapture who are caught up in the 1260 days of the great tribulation.

Starting to get long, I'll stop here but I have a lot more to say, lol.

 

[Divide]

That aside then since I'm not actually promoting soul sleep as of yet, just pondering it's possibility for now, assuming you read my other posts in this thread, what are your thoughts involving what I posted per post #75 and post #80? As to post #75, do you still think Pretribbers are making better sense out of the Jewish wedding customs than Post-tribbers are? Apparently, you do. Therefore, you maybe need to explain why you do, despite that the author of that article pointed out, Pretribbers are making havoc of the Jewish wedding customs per their interpretations.

As to post #80, do Pretribbers take the Pretrib rapture to be meaning the last trump involving 1 Corinthians 15:51-57? Because, like I pointed out, unless Pretribbers take it to involve the last trump, no one can put on bodily immortality in the meantime. This obviously presents a major problem for Pretrib if the Pretrib rapture is not meaning this same last trump in question. It would mean the church is being translated to heaven in mortal bodies rather than immortal bodies, as if that is reasonable or something. No it's not reasonable, because even Christ Himself, when He ascended into heaven, He did not do that in a mortal body, He did that in an immortal body.

Let me see here, I have my notes. It's not just 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. It's the entire chater actually. Refrences to both events (Rapture/Parousia) are made and if you pay close attention you can see the clues that He went somewhere else in his talk from one event to the other. Like for instance,

1 Corinthians 15:
20 But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died.

21 So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man. 22 Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life. 23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death.../NLT



He's talking about the resurection. We know that the dead in Christ get raised at the rapture, right? Christ was the first, His Bride the Church is second. Then in v24 he says very plainly, "After that"...after the resurection of Christians at the raoture. After the rapture (will come Great Tribulation!) and Jesus (and us!) return to the earth for the Parousia, the 2nd coming. Then He puts His enimies beneath His feet and rules on earth for 1000 years.

It's two events. One event He comes for His Bride. That is all, and we meet Him in tha air (Because it is not the Parousia) and He "takes us to a place that He has prepared for us...). Probably 99% do not know Greek or many if any of it's facets of their culture and the little things in their speech that affect meaning. So in scripture the way the wrote and talked back then can easily be misleading to us westerners.

I have a list of what I believe are Rapture scriptures, and the Prousia or 2nd coming scriptures in my notes here.

Rapture / 2nd Coming
John 14:1-3 / Daniel 2:44-45
1 Corinthiians 15:1-53 / Daniel 7:9-14
1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 / Daniel 12: 1-3
Romans 8:19 / Zechariah 14:1-15
1 Corinthians 1: 7-8; 15: 21-23 / Matthew 13:41
Phillippians 3:20-21 / Matthew 24:15-31
Colossians 3:4 / Matthew 26: 64
1 Thessalonians 1:10 / Mark 13:14-27
1 Thessalonians 2:19 / Mark 14:62
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 23 / Luke 21:25-28
2 Thessalonians 2:1,3 / Acts 1:9-11
1 Timothy 6:14 / Acts 3:19-21
Hebews 9:28 / 1 Thessalonians 3:13
James 5:7-9 / 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10; 2:8
1 Peter 1:7, 13 / 2 Peter 3:1-14
1 John 2:28; 3:2 / Jude 14, 15
Jude 21 / Revelation 1:7
Revelation 2:25 / Revelation 19:11; 20:6
Revelation 3:10 / Revelation 22:7, 12, 20

That list looks nicer in my notes. I hope it's not confusing how I typed it. Each line has 2 scriptures (or more) on it. Left side of the slash marks are all Rapture scriptures and to the right side of each slash mark are all 2nd Coming scriptures. It's a fairly complete list I think. At any rate it is a good study.

 

[Divide]

TWO EVENTS
Rapture / 2nd Coming
Translation of Believers / No Translation involved
The Saints go to Heaven / The Saints return to the earth with Jesus
The earth is not judged / The earth is judged
Imminent / Not Imminent
Affects Believers only / Affects all men on earth
Before the day of wrath / Concludes the day of wrath
No refrence to Satan / Satan is bound
He comes in the Air / He comes to the earth
He comes for His Bride / He comes WITH His Bride
Only the Saints see Him / Every eye will see Him
The Tribulation begins / The Millenium begins

We've all seen the scriptures that refrence these things and we know them, just not clear on how it all fits together. But if you compare the two lists (left of the slashes are Rapture refrences, on the right side of slashes are 2nd Coming scriptures) Peruse that list and ponder these things. COmparing events will make the scriptures pop up in your head. (I gave you the scriptures too, above!) Spend some time on it and compare, read and meditate on it, perhaps even pray about it.

It doesnt make sense anymore that we get raptured and go up in the air to meet Him and then come right back down to earth to watch Him fight. It just dont compute. Jesus loves His bride more than that. So much so that He died for us while we were still sinners. That's no fairy tale, lol. He would NOT make His Bride to experience God's wrath. That is for the unbelieving and sinners. Catch up my friends! This is a real relationship and He really does love YOU that much.

And me, Praise The Lord!

Would you make plans to take your FIANCE to a gang fight on the way to the wedding?! Of course not! How much more so, God?!!

 

[oikonomia]

I think it's easy to confuse the two events (Rapture/2nd Coming) as one event. But they are two events. The Parousia is the 2nd Coming and the Rapture is not, He comes for His bride alone. 2nd Coming = Jesus returns to the earth...Rapture = He comes in the air and we meet Him there.

The Parousia begins with the secretive rapture of those who are ready, watching, and vigilantly abiding in His presence pre-great tribulation time. The Parousia begins with Jesus rapturing them suddenly as a minority and remnant not to the but to the thirds heavens.

Then the Parousia continues as this minority of resurrected and then living remnant accompany Christ down from the third heavens
to hover over the earth, near the earth in a cloudy pavillion. The majority of saints who were not taken pre-tribulation who are living
will pass through the great-tribulation to be taken "to the air" visibly at the end of the three and one half year time.

Therefore the Parousia extends from the first pre-tribulation secretive rapture through the great tribulation until the open rapture
at the end of the great tribulation. So there is not one taking up in rapture. There is more than one. This is what most students of
the Bible miss. Some who have seen this have been referred to as being of the school of Selective Rapture.

Your now talking with a dear brother who is of this persuasion and can heartily defend and demonstrate it in Scripture.

2 Peter 3:10-14
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

(Footnote (2nd Peter

1. 3:10 Other manuscripts read will be burned up; one early manuscript reads will be found destroyed.)

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Thankyou. But this event Peter speaks of is at least one thousand years plus whatever "little while" Satan is loosed from his thousand year
prison, after the pre-tribulation rapture of secrecy and the end tribulation rapture of great public manifestation. This event is the closing of
the age of the old creation entirely forever as God ushers in the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth.

The Lord said: Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away. (Matt. 24:35)
The universe will pass away and be renewed but Christ's faithful word will outlast this rolling up of heaven and earth
and continue into the next age. That is how trustworthy His word is. And 2 Peter 3:10-14 describes that future time
of the dissolving and burning up of the old universe.

You see the regenerated believers enter into that new universe FIRST in their innermost being. The outward physical environment
must catch up. But before the universe catches up to what the Christians are foretasting, the entire Body of Christ as well as the entire
beings (spirit and soul and body) come into this newness. This is transformation, conformation, full sanctification and glorification of the
entire Body of Christ.

Only when there is complete righteousness within and without of all the saved in Christ, the early, the late, the stragglers, will
God then cause the old creation (including the partially restored millennial earth) to be completely done away and replaced.
Then there will be the age of the eternal new heaven and new earth in which righteousness alone makes its home.

Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away? But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 3:12,13)

In which righteousness dwells means all transformation of His people has been completed. The early overcomers have been sancified wholly, the late remedial defeated have been disciplined and sanctified. Any others have been wholly sanctified. The entire Body of Christ which is now the entire New Jerusalem city has been glorified. So the outward environment of creation God now catches up to their totally renewed state. So He rolls it up, burns it completely with all its works, dissolved it entirely, and renews it into a new universe- a new heaven and a new earth.

And He who sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said, Write, for these words are faithful and true. (Rev. 21:5)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

You see the New Jerusalem is not a place we are going. She is a entity we are becomming. That is the comsummate mingling of divinity and humanity. In Revelation the SIGN of the city descending is a SIGN of the organic total mingling of God and man. Through His
salvation we are BECOMMING in life and nature the New Jerusalem.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless....KJV

Now I'm no Rabbi but this is something I have studied quite a bit about the rapture because of so much disagreement about it. I admit that I have not studied Revelation near as much as the rest of the scriptures but I'll take a whack at it.

You have many joyful days ahead of you thento thoroughly dive into all the details of what Revelation reveals.

Let me say this astounding fact about 2 Peter 3:14 - Therefore, beloved, since you expect these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace without spot and without blemish;

Peter describes another Person who is without blemish and without spot - Jesus our Savior.

you were redeemed . . . with precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ; (See 1 Pet. 1;18,19)

So you can see God's eternal purpose is to make us like Christ. He builds up all the sons and daughters of God who have become
"without spot and without blemish" to a city bride for His Son who originally came for them "without blemish and without spot" to redeemed them with His blood.

Our destiny is to be conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; (Rom. 8:28,29)

We can only come to a state of "without blemish and without spot" through diligent cooperation with His all-sufficient grace to conform us. But we will all eventually come because we all cannot avoid to eventually give Him full cooperation.

It is an exhortation involving our diligent cooperation with His operation within us.
Therefore, beloved, since you expect these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace without spot and without blemish; (2 Pet. 3:14)

If you keep on reading past verse 10 you will see in v12 it mentions the day of God, not the same phrasing as v10. Why would that be? (He just might be refrencing something else?!) The chapter sounds like instructions to live in peace, without spot or blemish and blameless Which in other scriptures is how the bride will be, without spot or blemish. (She has mad e herself ready and washed her clothes and is withut spot or blemish. (This qualifies her to be raptured.)

Geez, in v16 it says:

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction..../KJV

I did read your comments here. I reserve response now. Maybe latter.

So I incline towrds disagreeing that the 1260 days is talking about the bride in Revelation 12:6. In v1 of that chapter it tells you who it is talking about. It does sound like there is some symbolism going on but I think it is clear that it's not talking about, her, the Bride. Many of God's people will be left behind in the raoture because they are not ready yet and need more refining and learning. I think that is a refrence to those remaing christians upon the earth after the rapture who are caught up in the 1260 days of the great tribulation.

Starting to get long, I'll stop here but I have a lot more to say, lol.

Thankyou for your fellowship and thoughts on these verses. Yes, for one post this length is enough.

 

[Divide]

Then the Parousia continues as this minority of resurrected and then living remnant accompany Christ down from the third heavens
to hover over the earth, near the earth in a cloudy pavillion. The majority of saints who were not taken pre-tribulation who are living
will pass through the great-tribulation to be taken "to the air" visibly at the end of the three and one half year time.

Therefore the Parousia extends from the first pre-tribulation secretive rapture through the great tribulation until the open rapture
at the end of the great tribulation. So there is not one taking up in rapture. There is more than one. This is what most students of
the Bible miss. Some who have seen this have been referred to as being of the school of Selective Rapture.

I agree with most of your post except this here. I don't how you got here from which scriptures. SO I'ma chew on this for a bit.

 

[oikonomia]

I agree with most of your post except this here. I don't how you got here from which scriptures. SO I'ma chew on this for a bit.

I get to a secretive pre great tribulation rapture easily.
I get to a public post tribulation rapture with logic applied to other verses.

But here is a little corner study of the matter. In Revelation 14 the total crop of God is divided into
Firstfruits and Harvest. Read the chapter today and notice how it is arranged.

Verses 1 - 5 is about fruits that mature and ripen EARLY and first - Firstfruits.
They are seen having been raptured to Heaven before the following events of the great tribulation.

Verses 6-7 is about the angel in the sky supernaturally announcing an eternal gospel to fear God the Creator.
This is during the great tribulation as Antichrist proclaims that he is god.
This eternal gospel warns all on earth that only God the Creator of the heavens and earth is the God to be worshipped.
And the resulting calamities in the cosmos are warnings that His judgement upon the world is coming.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters. (vs. 6,7)

Verse 8 is about God indirectly using by His sovereignty to destruction of apostate Christiandom. In other words Antichrist's
hatred for the apostate Christiandom, particularly the Roman Catholic Church and all her Reformation "daughters" who came out of her.
This destruction of apostate Christiandom occurs at the beginning of the great tribulation when Antichrist exalts himself that he alone
is God and attacks to destroy any other object of worship.

And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great, who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the fury of her fornication!

Verses 9-12 is the warning to those who are left on earth not to succumb to the threats of Antichrist.
Though many will die under his persecution, they faithfully rather be maytred than take his mark or number.

Verses 14-16 is reaping of Christ of the Harvest of believers who passed THROUGH this great tribulation and ripened through it.
This is the public rapture of the majority which most are familiar with. But the key to understanding is that they all are
the crop of Jesus - Firstfruits who were ready to rapture early and Harvest who were made ready for rapture by the time
of the end of the great tribulation. Firstfruits and Harvest are about the growth and development of Christ's life
within people.

Verses 17-20 are about the final battle where Christ vanquishes the grapes of wrath at Armageddon.

So in this chapter 14 we have an overview of the last days as corner study or window.
Basically - and early rapture BEFORE the great tribulation.
This followed by the major events of the great tribulation.
This followed by a rapture of the remaining crop at the end of the great tribulation (plus the battle at Armageddon).

Firstfruits are raptured as before the great tribulation starts as early matured ones. These are a remnant and minority.
Harvest is the rapture of those who ripened under the heat of the great tribulation. These are the rest and majority.

 

[Divide]

I get to a secretive pre great tribulation rapture easily.
I get to a public post tribulation rapture with logic applied to other verses.

But here is a little corner study of the matter. In Revelation 14 the total crop of God is divided into
Firstfruits and Harvest. Read the chapter today and notice how it is arranged.

Verses 1 - 5 is about fruits that mature and ripen EARLY and first - Firstfruits.
They are seen having been raptured to Heaven before the following events of the great tribulation.

Verses 6-7 is about the angel in the sky supernaturally announcing an eternal gospel to fear God the Creator.
This is during the great tribulation as Antichrist proclaims that he is god.
This eternal gospel warns all on earth that only God the Creator of the heavens and earth is the God to be worshipped.
And the resulting calamities in the cosmos are warnings that His judgement upon the world is coming.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters. (vs. 6,7)

Verse 8 is about God indirectly using by His sovereignty to destruction of apostate Christiandom. In other words Antichrist's
hatred for the apostate Christiandom, particularly the Roman Catholic Church and all her Reformation "daughters" who came out of her.
This destruction of apostate Christiandom occurs at the beginning of the great tribulation when Antichrist exalts himself that he alone
is God and attacks to destroy any other object of worship.

And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great, who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the fury of her fornication!

Verses 9-12 is the warning to those who are left on earth not to succumb to the threats of Antichrist.
Though many will die under his persecution, they faithfully rather be maytred than take his mark or number.

Verses 14-16 is reaping of Christ of the Harvest of believers who passed THROUGH this great tribulation and ripened through it.
This is the public rapture of the majority which most are familiar with. But the key to understanding is that they all are
the crop of Jesus - Firstfruits who were ready to rapture early and Harvest who were made ready for rapture by the time
of the end of the great tribulation. Firstfruits and Harvest are about the growth and development of Christ's life
within people.

Verses 17-20 are about the final battle where Christ vanquishes the grapes of wrath at Armageddon.

So in this chapter 14 we have an overview of the last days as corner study or window.
Basically - and early rapture BEFORE the great tribulation.
This followed by the major events of the great tribulation.
This followed by a rapture of the remaining crop at the end of the great tribulation (plus the battle at Armageddon).

Firstfruits are raptured as before the great tribulation starts as early matured ones. These are a remnant and minority.
Harvest is the rapture of those who ripened under the heat of the great tribulation. These are the rest and majority.

Apparently I have not been giving close enough attention to the details in your posts because I had the ipression that you believe in a post tribulation rapture (notwithstanding those who do come through the great tribulation!) You are saying that the Rapture is before the great trib! I got it that time, though!

So it sounds like we are on the same page and sometimes you lose me some so maybe you're on the next page from where I am, lol. Or two pages ahead.

I'm just not used to hearing about the souls who did make it through the great trib to be raptured. Are these the same souls who are beneath God's throne? They must be I think.

Good post!

 

[David Kent]

The Parousia begins with the secretive rapture of those who are ready, watching, and vigilantly abiding in His presence pre-great tribulation time. The Parousia begins with Jesus rapturing them suddenly as a minority and remnant not to the but to the thirds heavens.

Hardly secret. 1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[oikonomia]

Hardly secret. 1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

That is not the same event. That is at the end of the great tribulation at the last trumpet.

Jesus promised that those who overcome would be taken out of the hour of world wide trial.

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

To be taken out of the hour of the trial is to be taken out of the earth before the start of the great tribulation.
Since it is conditional upon something, some meet the condition and some do not.

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, is not "because you are born again".
Neither is it "because you have been forgiven of your sins."
Neither is it "because you have been justified by faith."
Neither is it "because you are a member of the church universal."
Neither is it "because you are a member of the local church."

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

It is a promise of rapture to those who have learned to keep the word of His endurance through daily trials.
Because they have been faithful WITHOUT the great tribulation time they are already matured.
There is no need for them to pass through the GT because they have practiced to endure in His grace in daily life.

So there is a selection of a remnant of living and deceased saints who will be raptured before the GT.
What you point me to in 1 Thess. 4:16 is not pre-tribulation but end-tribulation rapture of the rest.

So if we want to participate in a pre-great tribulation secret taking away from the earth rapture we
need to be like these overcomers. We need to learn His endurance and keep His word through our daily trials whatever they may be.

 

[oikonomia]

One of the important things we need to do when reading God`s word, or the newspaper etc is to find out `who is talking to whom. ` All your John scriptures reveal that Jesus was talking to the Jews regarding their resurrection - the last day.

So you are saying when Jesus says "all in the tombs" He really meant some in the tombs?

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice
And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life;
and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28,29)

 

[Divide]

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

It is a promise of rapture to those who have learned to keep the word of His endurance through daily trials.

endurance actually translates as patience in the original language. And we know what the word is, His Logos, the written word. It sounds like He is almost calling it the word of His patience to us...

Might that be a better translation of it? He is very patient and longsuffering so all we have to do is obey! Obey everything in the word.

 

[oikonomia]

endurance actually translates as patience in the original language. And we know what the word is, His Logos, the written word. It sounds like He is almost calling it the word of His patience to us...

Might that be a better translation of it? He is very patient and longsuffering so all we have to do is obey! Obey everything in the word.

Not being a Greek to English translator I will reserve that recommendation to those better qualified.

However, one principle we need to grasp and grasp well.
The Lord would rather we mature under normal day to day preasures.
If this is not adaquate special circumstances inevitably will come at the end of the age.

I do NOT mean that some Christians are not [edited] now under extremely difficult circumstances.
The greater majority are just Christians passing through the hum-drum of daily life.
And in this average surrounding His grace is suffciant also that we progress in growth.
That is if hold fast His truth in moment to moment, day be day patience and endurance.

to present you holy and without blemish and without reproach before Him;
If indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast
and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you heard, (See Col. 1:21,22)

How very many exhortations are there in the NT to holdon, endure, keeping on keeping on until the end.

Now let is see in more detail the reward of a pre-great tribublation rapture.

I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left.
There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:34-36).

The two we must decide from these possiblities:

1.) "Two" could mean, two non-Christians. This is not likely.

2.) "Two" could mean a Christian and a non-Christian. This is unlikely His meaning because
the warning is to disciples.

3.) "Two" could mean two Christians who are both redeemed, saved, with the gift of eternal life.

Interpretation #3 is the best. He will make a distinction in that day or that night that
one brother has developed habit of living in the Spirit even in the mundane legitimate responsiblities of life.
He is taken in rapture.

Or He makes distinction according to His authority that two Christian sisters are not the same.
One in the hum-drum of daily life in more in herself.
And another sister in the same circumstances has through patience learned to do things
yet remain in the enjoyment of His presence.

Both are eternally saved.
But one is taken in early rapture and one is left.
The one left will be taken after the heat of the preasure of the empending great tribulation.

Otherwise why would the Lord speak in the tone of warning?
It is not likely that the Lord is warning unregenerated unbelievers of His coming sudden rapture.
It is more likely that to His believers He warns -

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.
But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming,
he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (Matt. 24:42-44)

Do you agree?
Should I present more convincing passages of this better interpretation?
I would be happy to.

 

[truthpls]

We know from 1 Thess. that the rapture takes place almost simultaneously when Jesus raises His physically dead believers up out of their graves. All those who are in their graves are actually caught up first, then those who are still alive in their physical bodies at that time, and on that day get caught up right after them.

So we can clearly see that the rapture takes place on the day of the resurrection of all His saints who have died(as far as their physical existence is concerned) in Him.

All believers in Jesus, dead or alive at the time.

So when did Jesus tell us several times that He is going to “raise the dead”?

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


Wow, this must be too simple for a lot of people to understand?

Not sure what your problem is? If the Rapture happens at the last day and that is before the last seven years how is that a problem? That does not mean there are no more days after that. It means that is called the last day. That is not the only time people will be raised up I would think. If Jesus returned down TO the earth after the seven years was over, there would be untold millions of new believers that would need to join us who were taken up before that time. Then at the end of the 1000 years, after that, more saints need rescuing before the whole world is burned up and a new earth created for us. Then even after the millennial saints are rescued, everyone else that ever lived are raised to stand before God

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Hi William,

One of the important things we need to do when reading God`s word, or the newspaper etc is to find out `who is talking to whom. ` All your John scriptures reveal that Jesus was talking to the Jews regarding their resurrection - the last day.

This is absolutely false. Jesus was not just talking about the resurrection of the Jews in John 6, but rather all of those who believe in Him whether Jew or Gentile.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Where did Jesus indicate here that He would only be raising up Jewish believers on the last day? Nowhere. Instead, He referenced EVERYONE who believes in Him as being raised up on the last day.

How do you interpret this passage:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus indicated that an hour is coming when all of the dead are raised. So, one resurrection event that will include all "that have done good" being resurrected "unto the resurrection of life". How do you come up with separate resurrection events for believers from passages like these? It's impossible. Scripture very clearly teaches that all dead believers will be resurrected at the same time. Both Jesus and Paul taught that.

Jesus taught that it will happen on the last day and Paul taught that it will happen at Christ's second coming. Which makes the last day the day of His second coming.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Who are "they they are Christ's"? Jew and Gentile believers. They will all be resurrected at the same time.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not "on" the last day, but "at" the last day. We currently are "at" the last day, right before the millennium starts.

If we're currently "at" the last day then does that mean you think that the dead are already being resurrected since Jesus said He will resurrect the dead who believed in Him at the last day (John 6:40)?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

All believers in Jesus, dead or alive at the time.

Not sure what your problem is? If the Rapture happens at the last day and that is before the last seven years how is that a problem? That does not mean there are no more days after that. It means that is called the last day.

In what sense would "the last day" actually be the last day in that scenario? In other words, why would it be called "the last day" if there are many days after that?

That is not the only time people will be raised up I would think.

You would think? Should you go by what you think or by what scripture teaches? What did Jesus say about this?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus said there is one hour or time when all of the dead would be raised. So, what basis is there for thinking there will be more than one time when the dead will be raised?

If Jesus returned down TO the earth after the seven years was over, there would be untold millions of new believers that would need to join us who were taken up before that time. Then at the end of the 1000 years, after that, more saints need rescuing before the whole world is burned up and a new earth created for us. Then even after the millennial saints are rescued, everyone else that ever lived are raised to stand before God