CAN A BELIEVER STILL SIN TO DAY ?

[Dan Perez]

1 JOHN 2:1 reads That if any man SIN , we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous .

Then in 1 John 5:18 reads And we know that whosoever is BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT .

They seem to contradict each other ?

How can anyone EXPLAIN why?

The Greek word SIN is HAMARTANO in 1 John 2:1 '

The Greek word in 1 John 5:18 SINNETH is also HAMARTANO

And the Greek following SINNETH is the Greek word NOT is OV and this Greek word OV is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and means that person cannot SIN >

Give it a shot ?
What say you ?

dan p

 

[friend of]

A difference between falling in to sin from time to time, vs. living in sin, i think

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

In 1 John 1 8 it is written this “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”
'We' means John talks about Christians. So here he says that Christians are not without sin. Does he contradict himself in chapter 5, verse 18?

We are all sinners, and we continue to struggle with sin even after we are saved. We will never know a total absence of sin until we are with the Lord in glory: “When Christ appears, we shall be like him” (1 John 3:2).

If John is not referring to sinless perfection, what does he mean that believers do not continue to sin? Very simply, he means that believers will not continue practicing sin as a way of life. There will be a difference between the old life without Christ and the new life in Christ. The thief who was characterized by his theft is a thief no more; he has a different way of life. The adulterer who was characterized by his immorality is an adulterer no more; his behavior patterns have changed. The child of God who was a former thief may still struggle with covetousness, but he no longer lives according to the pattern of stealing. The child of God who was a former adulterer may still struggle with lust, but he has broken free from the old life of immorality. “All who have this hope in [Christ] purify themselves, just as he is pure” (1 John 3:3).

So John in 1 John 5 18 talks about continuous sin, not sinless perfection, otherwise we would all have lost our salvation already, which is not possible.

 

[Dan Perez]

In 1 John 1 8 it is written this “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”
'We' means John talks about Christians. So here he says that Christians are not without sin. Does he contradict himself in chapter 5, verse 18?

We are all sinners, and we continue to struggle with sin even after we are saved. We will never know a total absence of sin until we are with the Lord in glory: “When Christ appears, we shall be like him” (1 John 3:2).

If John is not referring to sinless perfection, what does he mean that believers do not continue to sin? Very simply, he means that believers will not continue practicing sin as a way of life. There will be a difference between the old life without Christ and the new life in Christ. The thief who was characterized by his theft is a thief no more; he has a different way of life. The adulterer who was characterized by his immorality is an adulterer no more; his behavior patterns have changed. The child of God who was a former thief may still struggle with covetousness, but he no longer lives according to the pattern of stealing. The child of God who was a former adulterer may still struggle with lust, but he has broken free from the old life of immorality. “All who have this hope in [Christ] purify themselves, just as he is pure” (1 John 3:3).

So John in 1 John 5 18 talks about continuous sin, not sinless perfection, otherwise we would all have lost our salvation already, which is not possible.

I missed where it talks about CONTINUOS SIN , can you point to where its says that , because I missed where that is in that verse ?

dan p

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I missed where it talks about CONTINUOS SIN , can you point to where its says that , because I missed where that is in that verse ?

dan p

The word in Greek is ἁμαρτάνει and according to Biblehub, it means 'continue to sin'. Which makes a complete sense, because the same apostle also teaches that none of us is without sin and none of us is a perfect Christian. Justification happens the moment a person is born of the Holy Spirit, sanctification is happening until we are with the Lord.

 

[Dan Perez]

The word in Greek is ἁμαρτάνει and according to Biblehub, it means 'continue to sin'. Which makes a complete sense, because the same apostle also teaches that none of us is without sin and none of us is a perfect Christian. Justification happens the moment a person is born of the Holy Spirit, sanctification is happening until we are with the Lord.

IN 1 John 5:18 it says Whosoever is born of God , SINNETH / IS HAMARTANO is in the Greek PERFECT TENSE PASSIVE VOICE , INDICATIVE MOOD and in the SLINGULAR .

And in 1 John 2:1 , , YE SIN / HAMARTANO is and AORIST TENSE , called a PAST TENSE and means action in the Past , Present and in the Future , and in the SUBJUNCATIVE MOOD , which means they won't sin OR will sin and this verb is in the PLURAL .

AND the Greek word NOT / OV means that they CANNOT SIN , and is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and means they CANNOT SIN , EVER and we are not yet speaks about people SAVED BY GRACE

We see the problem that Paul had Rom 7:15--25 , and in verse 19 Paul writes For GOOD which I wish , I do not , BUT Evil which I do not WISH , this I PRACTICE / is the Greek word PRASSO , refers to repeated acts , But what things I hate , this I do .

dan p

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

HAMARTANO

It's not hamartano, it's hamartanei. The text goes like this Οἴδαμεν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ οὐχ ἁμαρτάνει, ἀλλ’ ὁ γεννηθεὶς ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ τηρεῖ αὐτόν, καὶ ὁ πονηρὸς οὐχ ἅπτεται αὐτοῦ. The English translation for ἁμαρτάνει - continue to sin. What this means is that when a Christian falls into sin, he will not continue into it, because the Holy Spirit will accuse him and he will repent. Now of course this is not an excuse to sin, sin is still deadly.

As I said, no Christian perfectly obeys God without ever sinning. The Scripture says so also.

 

[Dan Perez]

It's not hamartano, it's hamartanei. The text goes like this Οἴδαμεν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ οὐχ ἁμαρτάνει, ἀλλ’ ὁ γεννηθεὶς ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ τηρεῖ αὐτόν, καὶ ὁ πονηρὸς οὐχ ἅπτεται αὐτοῦ. The English translation for ἁμαρτάνει - continue to sin. What this means is that when a Christian falls into sin, he will not continue into it, because the Holy Spirit will accuse him and he will repent. Now of course this is not an excuse to sin, sin is still deadly.

As I said, no Christian perfectly obeys God without ever sinning. The Scripture says so also.

I checked the text in 1 John 5:18 and they translated it SIN and SINNETH , in 1 John 2:1 , and 1 Joh 5:18 as HAMARTANO and will stand as I wrote and anyone can check and then believe what they see '

dan p

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

and 1 Joh 5:18 as HAMARTANO and will stand as I wrote and anyone can check and then believe what they see '

Beza Greek New Testament, Stephanus Textus Receptus, Scrivener's textus receptus, Greek Orthodox Church, Greek New Testament 1904, and all other Greek versions of NT, that I could find, have the word ἁμαρτάνει (hamartanei) so I don't know where you getting hamartano from.

Even if it was hamartano, you keep ignoring 1 John 1:8-10 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.' So if John says in the same book that we DO sin, then we must ask ourselves why it seems that 1 John 5 18 is different.

Or are you telling me you live a perfect sinless life? Because not even the biggest men of faith from OT did that, men like Abraham, Moses, king David etc.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

1 JOHN 2:1 reads That if any man SIN , we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous .

Then in 1 John 5:18 reads And we know that whosoever is BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT .

They seem to contradict each other ?

How can anyone EXPLAIN why?

The Greek word SIN is HAMARTANO in 1 John 2:1 '

The Greek word in 1 John 5:18 SINNETH is also HAMARTANO

And the Greek following SINNETH is the Greek word NOT is OV and this Greek word OV is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and means that person cannot SIN >

Give it a shot ?
What say you ?

dan p

As in Chapter three of 1 John, there is more to this than just never sinning.

1 JOHN 2:1 reads That if any man SIN , we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous .

Then in 1 John 5:18 reads And we know that whosoever is BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT .

They seem to contradict each other ?

How can anyone EXPLAIN why?

The Greek word SIN is HAMARTANO in 1 John 2:1 '

The Greek word in 1 John 5:18 SINNETH is also HAMARTANO

And the Greek following SINNETH is the Greek word NOT is OV and this Greek word OV is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and means that person cannot SIN >

Give it a shot ?
What say you ?

dan p

The entire issue is resolved when you realize what part of you was "born again."
Was your body born again? No. You have the same old bod you had before.
Was your soul born again (mind, will, emotions)? No. You have the same mind you had before.
Your spirit was born again. It is a new creation, all the old adamic spirit is gone/
And so the answer is that only your spirit cannot sin. The fullness of this can be seen in chapter three of the same epistle.

1 John 3:9 KJV
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The "seed of God" is not in your body or your mind... it is in your spirit.
The spirit that has been born into us cannot sin because it is born of God. Your body and soul are not born of God, and sin is still possible.
If we follow the inclinations of our reborn spirit, we will never sin! But if we listen to our bodies and unrenewed minds, sin is still there.

I think verse 4 of the same chapter renders the thought much better by using the word "whatsoever" rather than "whosoever.

1 John 5:4 KJV
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world:
and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

When we hear the word "whosoever," we tend to think of the whole man, spirit and soul and body." But the word "whatsoever" depersonalizes the idea, rendering it as only a part of us, or an organ rather than the person.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Yes, we are sinners and we do sin, but we are clothed in Christ's righteousness through faith. This is why the Bible sometimes calls believers sinners and other times holy, but these are not contradictions, rather they deal with the same reality from different angles.

Very simply, think of the Lord's Prayer. This is a prayer that Jesus gives to His people, to all who believe in Him. By this prayer, He teaches us to address God as our own Father, which is to say that we are children of God and co-heirs with Christ! What a gift! God be praised! Yet at the same time, our Lord teaches us to pray for forgiveness of sins daily, for we're instructed to pray: "... Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins ..."

So, if anyone who claims to be a Christian believes that we can graduate from the Lord's Prayer, he is wrong. On the other hand, if anyone teaches that those who are in Christ are not redeemed, they are also wrong. What this means practically, is that we can make a distinction between: (A) Embracing sin, promoting evil as good, and seeing no need for repentance, and (B) struggling against sin, living in daily repentance and faith in Jesus. So, for example, if a person is sexually immoral, if he chases after his lusts with no regard to God's Word, and by his words and actions teaches others that it's not a sin, then he is an unrepentant sinner. On the other hand, if he struggles with sexual immorality, but seeks forgiveness, then he is dead to sin and alive in Christ, holy to God, on account of the person and works of Jesus.

Now, there's a lot we can reflect on here, but my encouragement is simply to consider Jesus' words in the Lord's Prayer, because therein we can see very clearly what it means to be Christian and what that means regarding sin. And we can rejoice in that not only is Christ our Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, who atoned for our sins once and for all upon the cross, but that in His love and grace, God even forgives us every day. It's grace upon grace, for the sake of consoling hearts that are contrite and burdened by sin. So all of this entirely excludes the notion of achieving perfect holiness on one hand, and antinomianism on the other, but instead gives all glory to Christ.

 

[Dan Perez]

Beza Greek New Testament, Stephanus Textus Receptus, Scrivener's textus receptus, Greek Orthodox Church, Greek New Testament 1904, and all other Greek versions of NT, that I could find, have the word ἁμαρτάνει (hamartanei) so I don't know where you getting hamartano from.

Even if it was hamartano, you keep ignoring 1 John 1:8-10 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.' So if John says in the same book that we DO sin, then we must ask ourselves why it seems that 1 John 5 18 is different.

Or are you telling me you live a perfect sinless life? Because not even the biggest men of faith from OT did that, men like Abraham, Moses, king David etc.

I have just checked what I wrote down , and I believe that 1 John epistle was definitely written TO Israel and not to the BODY OF CHRIST .I
I am using the TEXTUS RECEPTUS and the word for SIN is HAMARITA and is a verb .

The word word for SINNER is HAMARTOLOS and means to MISS THE MARK .

The word SINFUL translates as HAMARTOLOS

1 John 5:18 , the word SINNETH uses the Greek word HAMARTANO and is in the AORIST TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , in the INDICATIVE MOOD .

What I am trying to show is that in verse 18 , Jew during the GREAT TRIBULATION are protected by Christ and verse 20 that God has given them understanding ,


And 1 John 2:1 SIN is in the SUBJUCATIVE MOOD Is used to express things WHICH could happen and trying to show that 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 5:18-20 are WAY different because one is in the GREEK present tense and the other is in the SUBUJUNCATIVE MOOD which to me changes the reading of these verses .

I know that many will not understand what I have written , but I understand what I have written , so the best to all that will try to understand and will be hard , sorry .

dan p

 

[Clare73]

I missed where it talks about CONTINUOS SIN , can you point to where its says that , because I missed where that is in that verse ?

In 1 Jn 5:13-21 we have the great Christian certainties/principles, the "we know"
that we have eternal life (v.13)
that he hears us (v.14),
that we have what we ask of him (v.15),
that anyone born of God does not sin (v.18), see 1 Jn 3:6, 9,
that we are children of God (v.19),
that the Son of God has come (v.20)
him who is true (v.21).

1 Jn 2:1 is presenting the Christian life in terms of fellowship with God (1:3-4), where fellowship is not broken by intermittent sin that is confessed (1:9).
1 Jn 3: 6, 9 is presenting the Christian life in terms of divine sonship in Christ, where habitual sin means one has neither seen nor known Christ; i.e., one is not a son of God.

I Jn 5:13-21 is his conclusion, presenting the great Christian certainties, the "we know," where 5:21 refers to the basic principle of righteousness (2:29--purity, 3:1; and lawfulness, 3:4-6) necessary for "we know;" i.e., no habitual sin.

 

[Aviel]

1 JOHN 2:1 reads That if any man SIN , we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous .

Then in 1 John 5:18 reads And we know that whosoever is BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT .

They seem to contradict each other ?

Their is no contradiction.

The issue is, not understanding something, because its not taught anymore.

Let me show you., reader.

"born again"..

What is that?

That is the SPIRIT, in you..........that has become BIRTHED by God's Holy Spirit, into God Himself, as "God is A Spirit".

See that Spiritual = Birth? That is the CHRISTian........ and that is not your body, or your mind or your BEHAVIOR.

Notice.

You are a Spirit, who lives in a body, and you have a soul.

So, the Spirit, is the real you, that is eternal, which was separated from God, by sin.

When God deals with your sin, through the Cross of Christ, He then gives your SPIRIT the "new Birth", and your SPIRIT is born again, as "the new creation IN CHRIST".... not your body or your mind.

Christian, you'll get a NEW Body, and your mind has to be RENEWED....

So, its the born again Spirit = this is the "Son/Daughter of God".. and there is no sin found there.

The problem, is understanding that its your BORN AGAIN Spirit, that is become "in Christ" "one with God'.

And until you understand this, then you will THINK of yourself as "what i did, is who i am= Christian",
"What i do, is who i am = Christian"., and in fact, its your Born Again SPIRIT that is the "Son/Daughter of God"., that is the "new Creation IN Christ."

 

[Dan Perez]

Their is no contradiction.

The issue is, not understanding something, because its not taught anymore.

Let me show you., reader.

"born again"..

What is that?

That is the SPIRIT, in you..........that has become BIRTHED by God's Holy Spirit, into God Himself, as "God is A Spirit".

See that Spiritual = Birth? That is the CHRISTian........ and that is not your body, or your mind or your BEHAVIOR.

Notice.

You are a Spirit, who lives in a body, and you have a soul.

So, the Spirit, is the real you, that is eternal, which was separated from God, by sin.

When God deals with your sin, through the Cross of Christ, He then gives your SPIRIT the "new Birth", and your SPIRIT is born again, as "the new creation IN CHRIST".... not your body or your mind.

Christian, you'll get a NEW Body, and your mind has to be RENEWED....

So, its the born again Spirit = this is the "Son/Daughter of God".. and there is no sin found there.

The problem, is understanding that its your BORN AGAIN Spirit, that is become "in Christ" "one with God'.

And until you understand this, then you will THINK of yourself as "what i did, is who i am= Christian",
"What i do, is who i am = Christian"., and in fact, its your Born Again SPIRIT that is the "Son/Daughter of God"., that is the "new Creation IN Christ."

And you wrote BORN AGAIN , and just who is BORN AGAIN and you are REFERRINGM to John 3:5 and 7 and what is you thoughts as to verse 5 BORN OF WATER ?

And what does verse 7 means Ye MUST BE BORN AGAIN ?

Was Jesus speaking about Israel ?

Or was Jesus speaking to GENTILES that are during Jesus earthly MINISTRY ?

dan p

 

[Dan Perez]

Beza Greek New Testament, Stephanus Textus Receptus, Scrivener's textus receptus, Greek Orthodox Church, Greek New Testament 1904, and all other Greek versions of NT, that I could find, have the word ἁμαρτάνει (hamartanei) so I don't know where you getting hamartano from.

Even if it was hamartano, you keep ignoring 1 John 1:8-10 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.' So if John says in the same book that we DO sin, then we must ask ourselves why it seems that 1 John 5 18 is different.

Or are you telling me you live a perfect sinless life? Because not even the biggest men of faith from OT did that, men like Abraham, Moses, king David etc.

IGNORING , and here is what 1 John 1:8 really means .

WE SAY / EIPON , is a verb , in the SECOND AORIST TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , and in the SUBJUNCATIVE MOOD , Plural and the SUBJUNCATIVE MOOD means that it will happen OR not happen .

WE SAY / ECHO a verb in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , INDICATIVE MOOD , and PLURAL .

NO / OV is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and means that person is LYING .

SIN / HAMARTIA is a noun , is in the ACCUSATIVE CASE , means LIMITED , and SINGULAR .

WE DECEIVE / PLANAO a verb , in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , INDICATIVE MOOD and the indicative mood , means that what John wrote is TRUE , and in the PLURAL .

OURSELFS / HEAUT0U is a REFLEXIVE PRONOUN , in the ACCUSATIVE CASE and in the PLURAL .

TRUTH / ALTHERA a noun in the NOMINATIVE CASE , and is SLINGULAR .

IS NOT / is a DISJUNCATIVE PRTICLE NEGATIVE means they are not telling the truth .

And here I have broken it down for all to see that I do not IGNORE any verse OR at lest not on purpose !

dan p

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

IGNORING , and here is what 1 John 1:8 really means .

WE SAY / EIPON , is a verb , in the SECOND AORIST TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , and in the SUBJUNCATIVE MOOD , Plural and the SUBJUNCATIVE MOOD means that it will happen OR not happen .

WE SAY / ECHO a verb in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , INDICATIVE MOOD , and PLURAL .

NO / OV is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and means that person is LYING .

SIN / HAMARTIA is a noun , is in the ACCUSATIVE CASE , means LIMITED , and SINGULAR .

WE DECEIVE / PLANAO a verb , in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , INDICATIVE MOOD and the indicative mood , means that what John wrote is TRUE , and in the PLURAL .

OURSELFS / HEAUT0U is a REFLEXIVE PRONOUN , in the ACCUSATIVE CASE and in the PLURAL .

TRUTH / ALTHERA a noun in the NOMINATIVE CASE , and is SLINGULAR .

IS NOT / is a DISJUNCATIVE PRTICLE NEGATIVE means they are not telling the truth .

And here I have broken it down for all to see that I do not IGNORE any verse OR at lest not on purpose !

dan p

I did not ask you to break the verse down. I was merely saying that here John says that is we say that we are without sin, we we deceive ourselves.

That means none of us, and I mean Christians, lives a perfect sinless life. So that can only mean one thing, that 1 John 5 18 means living in a continuous sin without repentence.

 

[Dan Perez]

I did not ask you to break the verse down. I was merely saying that here John says that is we say that we are without sin, we we deceive ourselves.

That means none of us, and I mean Christians, lives a perfect sinless life. So that can only mean one thing, that 1 John 5 18 means living in a continuous sin without repentence.

And I see that what I wrote will not understand what I wrote and I understand that , and is what I believe .

As I wrote that Paul also had problems , and we all do , and no one is without sin >

I say the Greek word REPENTANCE / METANOEO which means to perceive afterwards .

META / AFTER

And NOEO , to perceive .

Israel was the ONE that had to REPENT , because they killed Jesus , Acts 3:36 , 37 , 38 .

And your thoughts on WHY Gentiles have to REPENT ?

dan p

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Israel was the ONE that had to REPENT , because they killed Jesus , Acts 3:36 , 37 , 38

Jews indeed need to repent of rejecting and crucifying the Messiah, but remember, gentiles were also present at crucifixtion. And it was all outlr sins that put Him there, so it was us all who crucified Him.

And your thoughts on WHY Gentiles have to REPENT ?

Romans 3 “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one.”

We all sinned and we all need to repent.

Romams 1 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

As we can see, no one is without excuse, because every human being has knowledge of God. But people sin and their hearts get darkened. And thus by not worshipping God, people worhip other things, becoming idolatres. And from idolatry come all kinds of evil.

 

[tdidymas]

1 JOHN 2:1 reads That if any man SIN , we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous .

Then in 1 John 5:18 reads And we know that whosoever is BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT .

They seem to contradict each other ?

How can anyone EXPLAIN why?

The Greek word SIN is HAMARTANO in 1 John 2:1 '

The Greek word in 1 John 5:18 SINNETH is also HAMARTANO

And the Greek following SINNETH is the Greek word NOT is OV and this Greek word OV is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and means that person cannot SIN >

Give it a shot ?
What say you ?

dan p

1 Jn. 5:18 should read "whoever is born of God does not continue sinning." Don't get bogged down with words and absolutes. 1 John is not about absolutes, it's about direction of life and faith. It's about living a righteous lifestyle, not about sinless perfection. The Christian life is a journey on the "narrow way." It's the "way that leads to life." (Mat. 7:14)