How Does One Put A Pre-Trib Rapture Before “The Last Day”?

[truthpls]

I understand that the word "day" can be used to describe a time period or a 24 hour day, but where is it indicated that the last day is a time period? Nowhere that I can see. The dead are resurrected and everyone is judged on the last day. Why would the resurrection of the dead and the judgment refer to a time period? Do you think judgment day refers to a judgment time period?

More than that. It also includes the millennium.

Where are you getting this from? Where does that say that "The new earth and fire that destroys all enemies only comes at the end of the 1000 years"?

If fire comes down from heaven and right after we have a new earth, there seems to be a connection. The enemies it destroys are only the millennial rebels. Jesus takes care of all enemies when He returns. So the fire does destroy all enemies who then exist at the end of the millennium.

Tell me where scripture indicates that the coming day of the Lord is anything but an actual 24 hour day that will arrive at some point in the future.

I gave lots of Scriptures and they cannot fit into one single day. That's where

So, you somehow don't think that the day Jesus comes from heaven and we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air is "the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed"? That doesn't make any sense to me. Are you sure you are interpreting 2 Thess 1:7-10 objectively?

No, the day He comes in the air to receive us up is not the same day He returns from Heaven with us. That yo yo theory has no support

Some? What does that mean? Obviously, believers won't be. But, what would qualify any unbeliever from not being punished at that time? What unbeliever doesn't fit the description of being among "those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."?

The unbelievers already dead or not yet born who will be rebels in the 1000 years. Some other enemies were drowned in the Red sea long ago, etc.

Peter indicated that the destruction of earth and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth is in conjunction with the promise of Christ's second coming.

No not at all.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

That time period will come when He comes like a thief to take us from the earth. It includes the time of the 1000 years and after when the new heavens and earth are created. It also, of course includes the return to Jesus at the end of the Great Tribulation

In verse 13, "his promise" refers back to this:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Right, just look around.

What are you basing that belief on? Please back up your claims with scripture.

I clearly explained already and gave example Scriptures of things IN the last day and it cannot be a single day.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Evidence in not persuasion.

I've little time to for this right now.
I'd be happy to talk evidence latter.
I do so knowing that "Evidence is not persuasion."

And I can also poke many holes in your alternative as not completely logical.
I don't even have a moment to read carefully right now your whole post.
But I will.

You think you can poke holes in my beliefs even though you haven't even read my post carefully yet. Okay. Let's see if you can when you have the time to actually read it. Before then, you shouldn't make any assumptions.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

More than that. It also includes the millennium.

Where is your scriptural support for this?

If fire comes down from heaven and right after we have a new earth, there seems to be a connection. The enemies it destroys are only the millennial rebels. Jesus takes care of all enemies when He returns. So the fire does destroy all enemies who then exist at the end of the millennium.

How carefully have you read 2nd Peter 3?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

If the fire doesn't come down until 1,000+ years after Christ returns then why does Peter tell his readers to think about "what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God"? In your premillennialist view, it's not possible that the fiery destruction that Peter describes could occur in the lifetimes of any of his readers. So, your view doesn't make any sense out of 2 Peter 3:10-12 in that sense.

Also, Peter indicated in verses 13 that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance to "his promise". Which promise? This one:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

The promise of His second coming. So, 2nd Peter 3:13 indicates that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in as part of the fulfillment of the promise of His second coming. That places the timing of that at the time of His second coming, not 1,000+ years later.

I gave lots of Scriptures and they cannot fit into one single day. That's where

You didn't give any scripture which say that those things are all part of the day of the Lord. How can all those things be part of the day of the Lord when scripture says that the day of the Lord will come like at thief in the night? How can many things that happen over a period of time come like a thief in the night?

No, the day He comes in the air to receive us up is not the same day He returns from Heaven with us. That yo yo theory has no support

This is typical of the pre-trib rapture belief. Trying to claim that one event is Him coming for us and another is Him coming with us. But, scripture does not teach that. There is no scripture which says we return from heaven with Him bodily. Read this carefully:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who are those referenced in verse 14 that will be with Jesus when He comes? Those who "sleep in Jesus". The dead in Christ. Will they have bodies? No. They're bodies won't have been resurrected and changed yet. So, it's talking about their souls coming with Jesus and then being united with their resurrected, changed bodies. So, He will come for and with His people at the same time. That is indicated in this passage as well:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So, AFTER the tribulation, Jesus will send His angles to gather His elect "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Who are the ones gathered from heaven? The souls of the dead in Christ. Who are those gathered from earth? Those who are alive and remain (as well as the dead in Christ after they are resurrected and changed).

The unbelievers already dead or not yet born who will be rebels in the 1000 years. Some other enemies were drowned in the Red sea long ago, etc.

Those all fit the description in 2 Thess 1:7-10 because they don't know God. There's no basis for thinking that He won't punish all of His enemies when He returns. He will destroy all of His living enemies at that time and shortly after all of His enemies who are dead will be resurrected to face judgment and be cast into the lake of fire.

No not at all.

Why do you say that? In 2 Peter 3:13 He said we look forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance with "His promise". What does that mean to you? Is that not a reference to the promise of His coming as he mentioned earlier in 2 Peter 3:4?

That time period will come when He comes like a thief to take us from the earth. It includes the time of the 1000 years and after when the new heavens and earth are created. It also, of course includes the return to Jesus at the end of the Great Tribulation

Where does scripture teach that the day of the Lord includes all of that? Show me. All I'm seeing is your words and no scripture.

I clearly explained already and gave example Scriptures of things IN the last day and it cannot be a single day.

I only see you making assumptions. You have not shown any scriptures which state that those things you're talking about are part of "the last day" and "the day of the Lord". That surely isn't indicated in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 or 2 Peter 3:10-12, so where are you seeing that?

 

[truthpls]

Where is your scriptural support for this?

I already posted examples of things in the last day showing it is not one day only

"
Examples:
Joel 3:18
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord , and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.

Amos 9:11
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

Micah 4:6
In that day, saith the Lord , will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Isaiah 28:5
In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The new earth and fire that destroys all enemies only comes at the end of the 1000 years. That is specifically pointed out. That is IN the day of the Lord, as is so many other things such as Armageddon, His Return etc."

How carefully have you read 2nd Peter 3?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

If the fire doesn't come down until 1,000+ years after Christ returns then why does Peter tell his readers to think about "what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

No matter when it comes we ought to mind out Ps and Qs. But we know when the old earth is destroyed and the new one created, no mystery at all. After the millennium.

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God"? In your premillennialist view, it's not possible that the fiery destruction that Peter describes could occur in the lifetimes of any of his readers. So, your view doesn't make any sense out of 2 Peter 3:10-12 in that sense.

The coming of the day of the Lord is the Rapture and THAT we look forward to. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation there will be a lot of destruction. Then, more at the end of the 1000 years.

Also, Peter indicated in verses 13 that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance to "his promise". Which promise? This one:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

There are lots of promises. The promise of His coming for us is one.

The promise of His second coming. So, 2nd Peter 3:13 indicates that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in as part of the fulfillment of the promise of His second coming. That places the timing of that at the time of His second coming, not 1,000+ years later.

No. It is part of that day. Not the hour that Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives and destroys the wicked and judges nations. Not the moment of the Rapture. Not the tribulation. The final judgment of all the dead is also after the 1000 years. What we look forward to is His coming part of that day.

You didn't give any scripture which say that those things are all part of the day of the Lord. How can all those things be part of the day of the Lord when scripture says that the day of the Lord will come like at thief in the night? How can many things that happen over a period of time come like a thief in the night?

Look again, each verse even says in that day!

This is typical of the pre-trib rapture belief. Trying to claim that one event is Him coming for us and another is Him coming with us. But, scripture does not teach that. There is no scripture which says we return from heaven with Him bodily. Read this carefully:

He comes with ten thousands of His saints.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who are those referenced in verse 14 that will be with Jesus when He comes? Those who "sleep in Jesus". The dead in Christ. Will they have bodies? No. They're bodies won't have been resurrected and changed yet. So, it's talking about their souls coming with Jesus and then being united with their resurrected, changed bodies. So, He will come for and with His people at the same time. That is indicated in this passage as well:

Simple. Those already with Him in Heaven come back to receive their eternal bodies also.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Right. Of course He gathers all the new believers of the tribulation as well.

So, AFTER the tribulation, Jesus will send His angles to gather His elect "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Who are the ones gathered from heaven? The souls of the dead in Christ. Who are those gathered from earth? Those who are alive and remain (as well as the dead in Christ after they are resurrected and changed).

Right. So He does it at the Rapture, and again when He returns to earth, and probably yet again at the end of the 1000 years to rescue the saints then. Simple.

Those all fit the description in 2 Thess 1:7-10 because they don't know God. There's no basis for thinking that He won't punish all of His enemies when He returns. He will destroy all of His living enemies at that time and shortly after all of His enemies who are dead will be resurrected to face judgment and be cast into the lake of fire.

He does punish them. But He still has a world to rule after.

Why do you say that? In 2 Peter 3:13 He said we look forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance with "His promise". What does that mean to you? Is that not a reference to the promise of His coming as he mentioned earlier in 2 Peter 3:4?

It means that we look forward to our new heavens and earth. Don't you? We also know exactly when that is.

Where does scripture teach that the day of the Lord includes all of that? Show me. All I'm seeing is your words and no scripture.

Look at the verses it says so in each of them!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I already posted examples of things in the last day showing it is not one day only

"
Examples:
Joel 3:18
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord , and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.

Amos 9:11
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

Micah 4:6
In that day, saith the Lord , will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Isaiah 28:5
In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

Where do these indicate that they are talking about "the last day"?

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The new earth and fire that destroys all enemies only comes at the end of the 1000 years. That is specifically pointed out. That is IN the day of the Lord, as is so many other things such as Armageddon, His Return etc."

Yes, it occurs after the thousand years, but it is also said to occur when Jesus returns, which is why Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13 that the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth is in accordance with the fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming.

If the day of the Lord was a long period of time then how can it be said to come like a thief in the night at which point the heavens and the earth are burned up? That makes no sense.

No matter when it comes we ought to mind out Ps and Qs. But we know when the old earth is destroyed and the new one created, no mystery at all. After the millennium.

It seems you dodged my point here. Peter very specifically indicated that his readers should be careful about their behavior in anticipation of the arrival of the day of the Lord. Why do you suppose he said that? It's clear to me that he said that because he didn't want any of his readers to be among those who would have the fiery wrath of the Lord that he described to come down on them if it occurred in their lifetimes. In your view, the fiery wrath Peter described can't possibly occur during the lifetimes of any of his readers, which would make his statement in 2 Peter 3:11-12 completely pointless. Please address this instead of trying to avoid this weakness in your view of 2 Peter 3:10-13.

The coming of the day of the Lord is the Rapture and THAT we look forward to. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation there will be a lot of destruction. Then, more at the end of the 1000 years.

There are lots of promises. The promise of His coming for us is one.

In 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 it is indicated that major global destruction accompanies the arrival of the day of the Lord. That's why both Peter and Paul warn their readers to make sure they are in right standing with God in order to avoid the wrath that will accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord upon Christ's return. In your view, there is no destruction that accompanies the coming of the day of the Lord which blatantly contradicts what is written in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. There is no indication whatsoever in those passages that the day of the Lord will come and then some time later the destruction described in those passages occurs. Not whatsoever. In that case it couldn't be said that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. It will come like a thief in the night to unbelievers, but not believers because unbelievers are not expecting it to ever come like we believers are. They will experience sudden destruction before they even know what is happening because it will catch them off guard like a thief in the night.

No. It is part of that day. Not the hour that Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives and destroys the wicked and judges nations. Not the moment of the Rapture. Not the tribulation. The final judgment of all the dead is also after the 1000 years. What we look forward to is His coming part of that day.

Peter indicated that we should be looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in direct relation to His second coming (2 Peter 3:13), but that is not the case in your view.

Look again, each verse even says in that day!

Where does it say "that day" is the last day or the day of the Lord? You make a lot of assumptions.

He comes with ten thousands of His saints.

Yes, and that is described in 1 Thess 3:13 and also in 1 Thess 4:14. But, you somehow think that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is a description of a pre-trib rapture. No, it is not. It is the same gathering of His people that Matthew 24:29-31 says will occur AFTER the tribulation.

Simple. Those already with Him in Heaven come back to receive their eternal bodies also.

I don't know if you are reading my posts very carefully. As someone who believes in a pre-trib rapture you believe that Jesus will come for His people in one event and then with His people in a different event, right? But, I'm showing you how 1 Thess 4:14-17 shows Him as coming both with and for His people at the same event. And Mark 13:24-27 shows that as well and it will occur AFTER the tribulation.

Right. Of course He gathers all the new believers of the tribulation as well.

Where is it taught in scripture that He will come from heaven two different times to gather His people? Nowhere. It will only happen once.

Right. So He does it at the Rapture, and again when He returns to earth, and probably yet again at the end of the 1000 years to rescue the saints then. Simple.

Probably? Your view is based on nothing more than assumptions rather than clear scripture. I showed scripture that has Him coming both with and for His people at the same time, but you try to turn those things into separate events. And then you have Him coming from heaven yet again after the thousand years. Why would He do that 3 different times? It makes no sense and is not taught in scripture anywhere.

He does punish them. But He still has a world to rule after.

He rules the world now according to scripture.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

It means that we look forward to our new heavens and earth. Don't you? We also know exactly when that is.

And it says we look forward to it according to "his promise". Which refers to the promise of His coming mentioned earlier in the chapter (2 Peter 3:4). Do you agree? If so, then how can your premillennialist view fit with that? How can we look forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of His second coming if the new heavens and new earth aren't ushered in until 1,000+ years after His second coming?

Do you just believe what you've been taught your whole life? Have you ever considered other views than pre-trib dispensationalism?

Look at the verses it says so in each of them!

None of those verses you refereneced make any mention of the day of the Lord. Also, you don't seem to want to address the fact that passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicate that global destruction accompanies the arrival of the day of the Lord. That's why it says the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. In your view of the day of the Lord, it does not come like a thief in the night that brings sudden destruction upon unbelievers at all.

 

[truthpls]

Where do these indicate that they are talking about "the last day"?

Where it says in that day. In that day does not mean 1800

Yes, it occurs after the thousand years, but it is also said to occur when Jesus returns, which is why Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13 that the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth is in accordance with the fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming.

No. In fulfillment of His promise.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The promise for the new heaven and earth. It says what the promise is about.

If the day of the Lord was a long period of time then how can it be said to come like a thief in the night at which point the heavens and the earth are burned up? That makes no sense.

Simple. It starts when He comes as a thief in the Rapture. That is the day of the Lord as much as the millennium is.

It seems you dodged my point here. Peter very specifically indicated that his readers should be careful about their behavior in anticipation of the arrival of the day of the Lord. Why do you suppose he said that?

Because we need to be ready to meet Him. Why else?

It's clear to me that he said that because he didn't want any of his readers to be among those who would have the fiery wrath of the Lord that he described to come down on them if it occurred in their lifetimes. In your view, the fiery wrath Peter described can't possibly occur during the lifetimes of any of his readers, which would make his statement in 2 Peter 3:11-12 completely pointless. Please address this instead of trying to avoid this weakness in your view of 2 Peter 3:10-13.

You inserted all that into Peter's motives.

In 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 it is indicated that major global destruction accompanies the arrival of the day of the Lord.

No it only takes a twinkling of an eye for us to be raised. Less than a second! So if that triggers or marks the start of the day of the Lord, then nothing that happens on earth affects us any more. Yes I think that day of the Lord after we leave will have a lot of destruction. It is called the last seven years culminating in the Great Tribulation.

That's why both Peter and Paul warn their readers to make sure they are in right standing with God in order to avoid the wrath that will accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord upon Christ's return.

Another way to put it is get ready to meet Him

In your view, there is no destruction that accompanies the coming of the day of the Lord which blatantly contradicts what is written in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

I just explained there is destruction after we leave. Maybe some before as well. Lots of destruction going on right now. But the period of the wrath of God after we leave (which we are not appointed to) is known for the most terrible time of all.

There is no indication whatsoever in those passages that the day of the Lord will come and then some time later the destruction described in those passages occurs. Not whatsoever.

Yes, you just missed it. Hope you get it now.

In that case it couldn't be said that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. It will come like a thief in the night to unbelievers, but not believers because unbelievers are not expecting it to ever come like we believers are. They will experience sudden destruction before they even know what is happening because it will catch them off guard like a thief in the night.

No it comes like that to you and me also. No one knows the day or hour. Be ready.

Peter indicated that we should be looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in direct relation to His second coming (2 Peter 3:13), but that is not the case in your view.

Yes I look forward to that and know exactly when it will come. Lots to look forward to also before that!

Where does it say "that day" is the last day or the day of the Lord? You make a lot of assumptions.

Well if the new heaven and earth is in that day it is no assumption to know that is after we rule here for 1000 years.

I don't know if you are reading my posts very carefully. As someone who believes in a pre-trib rapture you believe that Jesus will come for His people in one event and then with His people in a different event, right?

Right. But there also will be multitudes of new believers here when we return from heaven with Jesus!

But, I'm showing you how 1 Thess 4:14-17 shows Him as coming both with and for His people at the same event. And Mark 13:24-27 shows that as well and it will occur AFTER the tribulation.

No. That is about Him coming with the dead in Christ who also get their new eternal bodies first if you notice! So He comes with folks at the Rapture and the return. Where He is there will we be!

 

[AYM]

No it only takes a twinkling of an eye for us to be raised. Less than a second! So if that triggers or marks the start of the day of the Lord, then nothing that happens on earth affects us any more. Yes I think that day of the Lord after we leave will have a lot of destruction. It is called the last seven years culminating in the Great Tribulation.

I want to zero in here for a second. The Olivet Discourse says in Matthew 24:29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Emphasis mine). This is echoed in Mark 13:24. Are you arguing that verses 30-31 (the rapture) take place before verse 29?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Where it says in that day. In that day does not mean 1800

LOL. Are you not understanding what I'm asking you? Where does it indicate "in that day" is referring to the last day? I believe I'm being clear here, so I'm not sure why you seemingly are not understanding my question.

No. In fulfillment of His promise.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The promise for the new heaven and earth. It says what the promise is about.

You don't think Peter was referring back to the promise he mentioned earlier in verse 4 which was the promise of His coming? Which promise do you think Peter was referring to here:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Simple. It starts when He comes as a thief in the Rapture. That is the day of the Lord as much as the millennium is.

Him coming like a thief has to do with Him coming unexpectedly. Unbelievers are not expecting Him to come, but believers are. What did Paul indicate would happen to those who are not expecting Him when He comes like a thief?

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Does your view have people being suddenly destroyed when He comes like a thief as Paul described here? Or does it only have people being caught up to meet the Lord without anyone being suddenly destroyed as Paul described as occurring when the day of the Lord comes like a thief? Also, what does Peter indicate in 2 Peter 3:10-12 will be the scope of that sudden destruction that Paul referenced as coming upon the arrival of the day of the Lord?

Because we need to be ready to meet Him. Why else?

You're not thinking some of this through. You said that the fiery destruction Peter described in relation to the day of the Lord doesn't occur until 1,000+ years after the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. Why do we need to be ready to meet Him if the destruction described in relation to the day of the Lord can't possibly happen in our lifetimes? You're missing that both Paul and Peter talked about being ready for His coming so that we avoid the wrath that will come down when He comes. Otherwise, what is the point of being ready for His coming? Why would we concern ourselves with avoiding the wrath that Paul and Peter talked about in relation to the day of the Lord if that wrath doesn't even come down until 1,000+ years after Christ's return? That makes no sense. You're not even thinking about things like this.

You inserted all that into Peter's motives.

Why else did Peter say we should be careful about our behavior in anticipation of the coming of the day of the Lord? You think that avoiding God's wrath isn't part of the motivation for that? Won't it be those who are not careful about their standing with the Lord who experience the wrath described in passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thess 5:2-3? Your view has Paul and Peter warning their readers to be careful about their behavior and about staying in the spiritual light rather than being in spiritual darkness for no real reason since the wrath they describe won't even occur until 1,000+ years after Christ's return. So, it's not something that can possibly affect any of their readers. This makes no sense.

No it only takes a twinkling of an eye for us to be raised. Less than a second! So if that triggers or marks the start of the day of the Lord, then nothing that happens on earth affects us any more. Yes I think that day of the Lord after we leave will have a lot of destruction. It is called the last seven years culminating in the Great Tribulation.

But, the destruction that scripture provides as occurring in relation to the day of the Lord occurs on the entire earth. Peter indicated that the entire earth will be burned up. So, if that destruction happens on the same day as the rapture, how can it be that the earth will continue on as we know it for many years afterwards? That makes no sense.

Another way to put it is get ready to meet Him

I just explained there is destruction after we leave. Maybe some before as well. Lots of destruction going on right now. But the period of the wrath of God after we leave (which we are not appointed to) is known for the most terrible time of all.

The scope of the wrath is complete. It involves the burning up of the earth itself, according to Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12. How can that be something that occurs over the course of many years?

Yes, you just missed it. Hope you get it now.

No, you missed that the destruction is described as occurring on the entire earth with the entire earth being burned up. How can life on earth continue for years after that? And there is no indication that the burning up of the earth occurs over a long period of time. It indicates that it occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. So, trying to say that it doesn't happen until 1,000+ years after the day of the Lord first arrives makes no sense.

No it comes like that to you and me also. No one knows the day or hour. Be ready.

He will not come like a thief in the night to believers because we are expecting Him. The concept of coming like a thief means someone is not even expecting Him to come at all. Yes, we don't know the day or hour, but the day of the Lord coming like a thief doesn't refer to not knowing the day or hour. It relates to not expecting it to ever occur at all. So, in that sense it will only come like a thief to unbelievers. Jesus Himself indicated that He will not come like a thief to us, but only to unbelievers. That doesn't mean we know exactly when He will come, it means we are expecting Him to come some day while unbelievers are not.

Please read this:

Matthew 24:42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

What Jesus was indicating here is that when we watch for His coming and understand that He may be coming soon, then we are ready for His coming even if we don't know exactly what day or hour it will be. It's only those who are not expecting Him to come at all that figuratively will let their houses be broken into by the thief coming in the night. So, He is only coming like a thief in the night to those not expecting Him, not to those who are expecting Him to come. That is what Jesus Himself taught.

Yes I look forward to that and know exactly when it will come. Lots to look forward to also before that!

You don't know exactly when the new heavens and new earth will come. Scripture indicates that it will come when Jesus come and you don't know when He is coming.

Well if the new heaven and earth is in that day it is no assumption to know that is after we rule here for 1000 years.

There is no future thousand years. That contradicts many scriptures such as the ones that indicate we all will be changed to be immortal when He comes at the last trumpet with all unbelievers being killed at that point. That does not leave any mortals to populate the earth after He returns.

Scripture indicates that Jesus reigns now and we reign with Him as priests now.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Right. But there also will be multitudes of new believers here when we return from heaven with Jesus!

You are not getting it. Nowhere does scripture say we will be brought to heaven and then later return from heaven with Jesus. That is a made up story. When scripture talks about saints coming with Jesus, as referenced in 1 Thess 3:13 and 1 Thess 4:14-17, it's talking about the souls of dead believers coming with Him from heaven. John saw those souls in heaven in his visions when he wrote the book of Revelation (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4).

No. That is about Him coming with the dead in Christ who also get their new eternal bodies first if you notice!

They don't get their eternal bodies first before descending from heaven with Christ. That's not what it says. When it says the dead in Christ will rise first, the context is that they will first be resurrected before they then are caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet Christ in the air. It doesn't say they are resurrected first before descending form heaven with Christ. Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now? They will have to descend from heaven with Christ before uniting with their resurrected, changed bodies and being caught up to meet Christ in the air with those who are alive and remain unto His second coming.

So He comes with folks at the Rapture and the return. Where He is there will we be!

He comes with the souls of the dead in Christ at the rapture, which is the time of His return. Nowhere does scripture say He will descend from heaven twice (or more) in the future as you believe. It only says He will descend once from heaven in the future and He will descend from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven long ago (Acts 1:9-11).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I want to zero in here for a second. The Olivet Discourse says in Matthew 24:29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Emphasis mine). This is echoed in Mark 13:24. Are you arguing that verses 30-31 (the rapture) take place before verse 29?

No, he believes in a pre-trib rapture, so he doesn't see Matthew 24:30-31 as being the same event as described in 1 Thess 4:14-17. It makes no sense, but that is what he and many others believe.

 

[oikonomia]

You think you can poke holes in my beliefs even though you haven't even read my post carefully yet. Okay. Let's see if you can when you have the time to actually read it. Before then, you shouldn't make any assumptions.

Vica versa. When I mention a pre-great tribulation rapture what do you think I mean ?
I think we can approach this in addition to reading what you have written, with asking one another
certain questions.

I think it would be quite interesting.

 

[oikonomia]

You can't prove a pre-trib rapture with scripture. I guarantee that. Any time anyone tries, it's always based on a lot of speculation and based on taking scriptures out of context.

I have now had time to read this.

Why do you say that?

Let me ask you first.

The return of the remnant of Israelites from the 70 year Babylonian captivity - was it due to the prophecy of Jeremiah or was it due to the strong consistant prayers of Daniel for many years at the cost of the threatening of his life?

 

[truthpls]

I want to zero in here for a second. The Olivet Discourse says in Matthew 24:29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Emphasis mine). This is echoed in Mark 13:24. Are you arguing that verses 30-31 (the rapture) take place before verse 29?

No. We are already long gone and raptured. Those verses are after the tribulation when we return and He gathers a new batch of believers. Untold multitudes too great to number will be saved in the last years. He has to gather them also. All quite simple and plain.

 

[AYM]

No. We are already long gone and raptured. Those verses are after the tribulation when we return and He gathers a new batch of believers. Untold multitudes too great to number will be saved in the last years. He has to gather them also. All quite simple and plain.

Where is that in the text?

 

[truthpls]

LOL. Are you not understanding what I'm asking you? Where does it indicate "in that day" is referring to the last day? I believe I'm being clear here, so I'm not sure why you seemingly are not understanding my question.

Because of the things that happen in that day. End time events all. We also have the new heavens and earth happen in the day of the Lord. So we know it is a long period as man considers it, but as Peter says to God 1000 years is like a day.

You don't think Peter was referring back to the promise he mentioned earlier in verse 4 which was the promise of His coming? Which promise do you think Peter was referring to here:

The promise about how we will have a new heaven one day as he mentioned. Now if Peter had said we look to the promise of His return to earth, well that would be referring to another promise! There are lots of promises. All of them good.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Ok, so don't get your shorts in a knot if Jesus does not return this week. Great advice,

Him coming like a thief has to do with Him coming unexpectedly. Unbelievers are not expecting Him to come, but believers are. What did Paul indicate would happen to those who are not expecting Him when He comes like a thief?

The TIME a thief comes is unknown and the time of the Rapture is unknown. Simple.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

The tribulation period is also compared to labor pains. So, after we are Raptured and the last seven years of wrath (with the greatest wrath at the end of that) despite claims of safety and peace the tribulation and all the wrath in it will come. Simple.

Does your view have people being suddenly destroyed when He comes like a thief as Paul described here? Or does it only have people being caught up to meet the Lord without anyone being suddenly destroyed as Paul described as occurring when the day of the Lord comes like a thief? Also, what does Peter indicate in 2 Peter 3:10-12 will be the scope of that sudden destruction that Paul referenced as coming upon the arrival of the day of the Lord?

The wicked still here face the troubles. Even the new believers of that time will have terrible times and even face death. We of course face...heaven! Simple

You're not thinking some of this through. You said that the fiery destruction Peter described in relation to the day of the Lord doesn't occur until 1,000+ years after the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night.

The real final fire, no. There is also some fire and wrath and vengeance poured out on the wicked trying to fight Him when He returns.

Why do we need to be ready to meet Him if the destruction described in relation to the day of the Lord can't possibly happen in our lifetimes?

Simple, it was not the trouble we were to fear, but His return to avoid the trouble we are to look forward to. Easy peasy.

You're missing that both Paul and Peter talked about being ready for His coming so that we avoid the wrath that will come down when He comes.

Being in the Rapture avoids the wrath of God, also called the tribulation. Is that not plain?

Otherwise, what is the point of being ready for His coming?

Well being saved is required and also being right with Him so we are more ready to meet Him. That is the point.

Why would we concern ourselves with avoiding the wrath that Paul and Peter talked about in relation to the day of the Lord if that wrath doesn't even come down until 1,000+ years after Christ's return? That makes no sense. You're not even thinking about things like this.

All we need to concern ourselves with is thanking Him for salvation and coming to take us away before the wrath. BY being ready to meet Him and be taken up we escape the wrath.

Why else did Peter say we should be careful about our behavior in anticipation of the coming of the day of the Lord? You think that avoiding God's wrath isn't part of the motivation for that?

Package deal. Being saved already spares us from the wrath. All we anticipate is His rescue soon and we leave the wrath behind.

Won't it be those who are not careful about their standing with the Lord who experience the wrath described in passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thess 5:2-3?

Pet 3:10 is about after we go up to be with Jesus. The wrath of God. Ready or not if we are saved we go up to meet Him. Being ready is something we should do, such as works for Him, because our rewards will be based on works. Not our salvation, that's in the bag.

Your view has Paul and Peter warning their readers to be careful about their behavior and about staying in the spiritual light rather than being in spiritual darkness for no real reason since the wrath they describe won't even occur until 1,000+ years after Christ's return. So, it's not something that can possibly affect any of their readers. This makes no sense.

No, as explained it is important to be ready to meet God. Better than meeting Him when we wish we had done more for Him or etc.

But, the destruction that scripture provides as occurring in relation to the day of the Lord occurs on the entire earth.

The 1000 years is IN the day of the Lord and at the end of it is when the earth is burned and a new earth created.

Peter indicated that the entire earth will be burned up. So, if that destruction happens on the same day as the rapture, how can it be that the earth will continue on as we know it for many years afterwards? That makes no sense.

The same period in which many things happen including the millennium as I mentioned several times now.

The scope of the wrath is complete. It involves the burning up of the earth itself, according to Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12. How can that be something that occurs over the course of many years?

Yes, and we know when that comes in that day of the Lord, at the end of the 1000 years.

No, you missed that the destruction is described as occurring on the entire earth with the entire earth being burned up. How can life on earth continue for years after that?

Since that old earth that is burned is burned at the end of the 1000 years, life will be fine here before that. After that, we who are with Him when He burns it up simply come on down to the new world He created. Simple.

And there is no indication that the burning up of the earth occurs over a long period of time. It indicates that it occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. So, trying to say that it doesn't happen until 1,000+ years after the day of the Lord first arrives makes no sense.

No you conflated the times. It is certainly at the end of the 1000 years after He returns to earth and it is still IN that day of the Lord. In the very passage Peter mentions how a thousand years is like a day to God.

He will not come like a thief in the night to believers because we are expecting Him.

No man knows the day or hour. For us it will be a surprise.

The concept of coming like a thief means someone is not even expecting Him to come at all.

No, it refers to we don't know what time in the night he was coming. That is why we had to watch, remember?No one would stay up all night watching if they expected nothing!

YMatthew 24:42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

As I said we must keep watch because we expect a thief but don't know what hour they may come.

You don't know exactly when the new heavens and new earth will come. Scripture indicates that it will come when Jesus come and you don't know when He is coming.

I sure do as does anyone that read Revelation. Clear as clear could be.

There is no future thousand years.

Ah there is your problem!!! Diagnosis complete.

 

[truthpls]

Where is that in the text?

What text?

 

[AYM]

What text?

The Olivet Discourse which covers the church age. Where is there a second rapture?

 

[truthpls]

Where is that in the text?

All over

 

[truthpls]

The Olivet Discourse which covers the church age. Where is there a second rapture?

If you conflate the Rapture with the return to earth of Jesus seven years later (which is some second rapture in your mind) you can't get it.

 

[AYM]

All over

Can you show me a verse?

 

[AYM]

If you conflate the Rapture with the return to earth of Jesus seven years later (which is some second rapture in your mind) you can't get it.

Where are 7 years mentioned here?