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Hamas-Israel News Thread

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Wings like Eagles

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Lots of ancient history here. None of which is really valid for conferring land title in a rule of law based order.

The alternative is a world in which people simply do and take what they want by force. Generally people are unhappy with the misery and instability of that kind of chaos.
Meaning, if true, it would explain the Egyptians were/are living there.
 
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durangodawood

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No, the current crop of Gazans were born there.

Nobody knows. Once upon a time there was no such thing as Palestinians. "Palestine" was a word given to the region by the ancient Romans in order to insult the Jews, possibly because it's a version of the name "Philistine".

Interesting trivia: The Arabic language does not have the sound for the letter "P". If you go to an Arab restaurant the waiter might ask you if you want a "cub of soub" rather than a cup of soup. Kinda like if Germans had no sound to pronounce the D in Deutschland.
Nobody knows where they came from? Or nobody agrees whats the correct name for where they came from?
 
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Chesterton

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Nobody knows where they came from?
If by "they" you mean the current residents, they didn't come from anywhere. They were born there. If by "they" you mean them as a people, they came from Arabia,
Or nobody agrees whats the correct name for where they came from?
I think everyone agrees that the correct names would be Gaza or Arabia, depending on what you're asking.

I'm a little confused. I think what you're getting at is the fact that "Palestinian" is a made up word for political purposes, a bit like how the U.S. government invented the word "Hispanic".
 
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JosephZ

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That's what a seige is. There's no evidence that they are intentionally harming civilians. Civilians may be collaterally harmed, but there is an exception for that recognized in international law called "military necessity".
Isreal cutting off ALL food, water, fuel, and humanitarian aid to Gaza isn't recognized as being a military necessity and is in clear violation of international humanitarian law.


Article 54 — Protection of objects indispensable to the survival of
the civilian population


1. Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited.

2. It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.

3. The prohibitions in paragraph 2 shall not apply to such of the objects covered by it as are used by an adverse Party:

a) as sustenance solely for the members of its armed forces; or

b) if not as sustenance, then in direct support of military action, provided, however, that in no event shall actions against these objects be taken which may be expected to leave the civilian population with such inadequate food or water as to cause its starvation or force its movement.

4. These objects shall not be made the object of reprisals.

5. In recognition of the vital requirements of any Party to the conflict in the defence of its national territory against invasion, derogation from the prohibitions contained in paragraph 2 may be made by a Party to the conflict within such territory under its own control where required by imperative military necessity.
 
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durangodawood

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Article 54 — Protection of objects indispensable to the survival of
the civilian population


1. Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited......
This could go bad for Israel if they become the criminals that their attackers surely are.
 
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High Fidelity

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Very messy situation.

Neither side are without blame, either preceding the attack or following it, but what Hamas have done to Israel is inexcusable. Had they attacked military targets, that's one thing, but indiscriminate murder and apparent torture and beheadings... disgusting.

Israel need to be very careful because they are clearly violating international law (and, frankly, have been for a while), so they risk both losing support from allies, and bolstering support for Palestine amongst their enemies.

This definitely has the potential to spill out of Israel. I pray it's over as quickly as possible and doesn't escalate. It's been weighing very heavily on my mind and heart.
 
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Chesterton

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I mean those who fled there as refugees (some of whom surely are alive today.)
Oh I see. Sorry, I'm a little slow. Many came from the region their forefathers conquered through bloody conquest, which is today called Israel.
 
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Chesterton

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Isreal cutting off ALL food, water, fuel, and humanitarian aid to Gaza isn't recognized as being a military necessity and is in clear violation of international humanitarian law.


Article 54 — Protection of objects indispensable to the survival of
the civilian population


1. Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited.

2. It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.

3. The prohibitions in paragraph 2 shall not apply to such of the objects covered by it as are used by an adverse Party:

a) as sustenance solely for the members of its armed forces; or

b) if not as sustenance, then in direct support of military action, provided, however, that in no event shall actions against these objects be taken which may be expected to leave the civilian population with such inadequate food or water as to cause its starvation or force its movement.

4. These objects shall not be made the object of reprisals.

5. In recognition of the vital requirements of any Party to the conflict in the defence of its national territory against invasion, derogation from the prohibitions contained in paragraph 2 may be made by a Party to the conflict within such territory under its own control where required by imperative military necessity.
No crimes have been committed - with IHL, "The law is mandatory for nations bound by the appropriate treaties."

Besides, section 3(b) of what you posted confirms what I already said about military necessity.
 
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durangodawood

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Oh I see. Sorry, I'm a little slow. Many came from the region their forefathers conquered through bloody conquest, which is today called Israel.
Generally, do societies who did not settle via bloody conquest have a privileged claim to land? Perhaps its a moot question tho, as its hard to think of any.
 
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Chesterton

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Generally, do societies who did not settle via bloody conquest have a privileged claim to land? Perhaps its a moot question tho, as its hard to think of any.
I don't know. I recall years ago having philosophical discussions with atheists about whether there's any such thing as "rights", but I won't go into that here.

I want to be fair, but I also want to be realistic. Whether I agree or disagree with how the Jews got back there, they are there, and they're not going anywhere. They're not going to be "driven into the sea", they're not going to be genocided, and none of us should want any one to be. But over the decades Israel has made numerous attempts at conciliation, even offering land for peace, and every time the Arabs around them said "no". They have never negotiated in good faith. Nothing is ever good enough for the Arabs short of complete removal or complete destruction.
 
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JosephZ

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No crimes have been committed - with IHL, "The law is mandatory for nations bound by the appropriate treaties."
All countries are bound by International Humanitarian Law.

Besides, section 3(b) of what you posted confirms what I already said about military necessity.
3. The prohibitions in paragraph 2 shall not apply to such of the objects covered by it as are used by an adverse Party:

a) as sustenance solely for the members of its armed forces; or

b) if not as sustenance, then in direct support of military action, provided, however, that in no event shall actions against these objects be taken which may be expected to leave the civilian population with such inadequate food or water as to cause its starvation or force its movement.
 
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durangodawood

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I don't know. I recall years ago having philosophical discussions with atheists about whether there's any such thing as "rights", but I won't go into that here.

I want to be fair, but I also want to be realistic. Whether I agree or disagree with how the Jews got back there, they are there, and they're not going anywhere. They're not going to be "driven into the sea", they're not going to be genocided, and none of us should want any one to be. But over the decades Israel has made numerous attempts at conciliation, even offering land for peace, and every time the Arabs around them said "no". They have never negotiated in good faith. Nothing is ever good enough for the Arabs short of complete removal or complete destruction.
It sounds like at bottom there is no moral principle to appeal to, and just whoever can capture the land and relocate the inhabitants has it, and the rest of the world should respect that simply as a practical matter.

I'm not just being flip either, as I'm writing from former Indian land - which may have even changed hands a few times before white settlers came.
 
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Chesterton

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It sounds like at bottom there is no moral principle to appeal to, and just whoever can capture the land and relocate the inhabitants has it, and the rest of the world should respect that simply as a practical matter.

I'm not just being flip either, as I'm writing from former Indian land - which may have even changed hands a few times before white settlers came.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Iran president, Saudi crown prince speak for first time since ties restored

Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman discussed the Palestinian-Israeli conflict on Wednesday, in the first telephone call between the two leaders since a China-brokered deal between Tehran and Riyadh to resume ties.

Raisi and the Saudi crown prince discussed the "need to end war crimes against Palestine," Iranian state media said.

[The Crown Prince] reiterated Saudi Arabia's rejection of targeting civilians in any way
 
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Chesterton

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All countries are bound by International Humanitarian Law.
I quoted from Left-wing Wikipedia. You disagree with them, take it up with them.
b) if not as sustenance, then in direct support of military action, provided, however, that in no event shall actions against these objects be taken which may be expected to leave the civilian population with such inadequate food or water as to cause its starvation or force its movement.
Gaza is ocean-front property. There's plenty of food in the ocean.
 
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