Hamas-Israel News Thread

[durangodawood]

We all came from Africa. And Egtpt is in Africa.

Prehistoric human origins are not relevant here.

 

[JosephZ]

How hard would it be to get all the Palestinians to leave the Gaza strip? Maybe a large scale exodus like we saw during the Syrian war.

...Because if they were all pushed out, that would solve the problem of Hamas re-emerging in any kind of effective way.

What would the Israelis do with all the Palestinians who refuse to leave Gaza? Remove them by force. Kill them? You have to remember that there are close to 2 million Palestinian citizens living in Israel and another 3 million living in the West Bank. What do you think their reaction would be? How would other Arab nations respond?

Any attempt to remove all of the Palestinians living in Gaza would be disastrous and would only empower Hamas and other terrorist groups in the region.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

Any attempt to remove all of the Palestinians living in Gaza would be disastrous and would only empower Hamas and other terrorist groups in the region.

My view of this is, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran do not need to be empowered, they repeatedly voice their goal of eliminating the Jews. How is anyone supposed to reason with that mindset.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Prehistoric human origins are not relevant here.

But "sacred", ancestral ground is? What's the reality behind that.

 

[Landon Caeli]

What would the Israelis do with all the Palestinians who refuse to leave Gaza? Remove them by force. Kill them? You have to remember that there are close to 2 million Palestinian citizens living in Israel and another 3 million living in the West Bank. What do you think their reaction would be? How would other Arab nations respond?

Any attempt to remove all of the Palestinians living in Gaza would be disastrous and would only empower Hamas and other terrorist groups in the region.

Create an undesirable environment. When everything is broken, and no money to fix it, people tend to move on.

 

[durangodawood]

But "sacred", ancestral ground is?

Cleary, many Jews tie their identity as a people to Israel. Its a force that has real world effects.

Prehistoric human first-migration origins have no grip on people at all.

 

[JosephZ]

Create an undesirable environment. When everything is broken, and no money to fix it, people tend to move on.

Not always.

 

[Chesterton]

The problem with you relativist types is that you even dare to insinuate that there is more than one kind of truth. This has lead to todays post-factual world, where everyone lives in their own reality and discussion between people who live in too disparate realities is next to impossible.

The honest truth is that I was trying to agree with your post about people lying during wartime, and I remembered that funny story about the milk plant. When I saw your later post I remembered that I had heard years ago that the bombing was sort of a mistake. I had just forgotten. I say it was "sort of" a mistake because it may well have been seen as a legitimate target at the time - as your CIA document notes, the Iraqis were trying to biologically weaponize milk.

Regardless, my true point that people lie during war still stands. I don't see it as important at all, but since you went to the trouble to call me out, and if it really bothers you, I'll delete the post if you want.

 

[Chesterton]

The decision to imprison Gaza even more tightly than usual has also been implemented. The crossings are closed and goods cannot be brought in. Israel has disconnected Gaza from the power grid and the population now depends on the small local power plant, which will only hold out for several days until the diesel fuel runs out. Water is also in short supply: almost all the water extracted in Gaza requires desalination or purification to drink, and these rely on electricity. Israel has also cut back on the water it sells to Gaza, and part of the water network has been damaged by bombing.

There is no justification for these actions, which constitute war crimes openly ordered by top Israeli officials. Even in the face of horror and terror – intentionally harming civilians, their property and civilian infrastructure is always prohibited. One crime does not justify another, nor does one kind of injustice justify another. Acts of revenge are prohibited by basic moral principles and by the provisions of international law that Israel is obliged to uphold.

Contrary to what Israeli ministers are implying, this policy is not new, but has been implemented towards Gaza for many years. The death, destruction, pain and horror it has wrought have led to nothing but more horror. It is time to demand to a different reality – a new future for all those who live here.
from B'tselem

That's what a seige is. There's no evidence that they are intentionally harming civilians. Civilians may be collaterally harmed, but there is an exception for that recognized in international law called "military necessity".

 

[Chesterton]

Israel has been attacking hospitals and ambulances, as well as schools that are being used as emergency shelters. They aren't being particularly careful about civilian causalities including doing things like hitting crowded markets and mosques. And while i understand they didn't actually do it, the threat to completely cut off Gaza would also violate the laws of war because that's collective punishment.

I thought it was common knowledge that Hamas uses civilian spaces, which are therefore fair targets. Israel has even been warning civilians before it bombs certain targets, which is something I'm not sure I would do if I were them. But I'd like to know your sources that Israeli jets are intentionally targeting ambulances and markets. I've been following both sides and haven't heard that claim. There was the story yesterday about Hamas intentionally aiming at the hospital in Ashkelon, but the rockets kept missing the target. And cutting off Gaza is not punishment, it's war.

 

[Chesterton]

Israel is not going to be able to destroy Hamas militarily. It may drive Hamas underground for awhile, but they will reappear at some point in the future, perhaps under another name, but it will still be the same actors. The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue. With every Palistinian child, brother, sister, father, mother, or grandparent that is killed by Isreali forces, another potential terrorist is born.

Other side effects of the ongoing military campaign against Hamas will be the possibility of splinter groups forming and foreign terrorist groups and lone wolves who sympathize with Hamas and the struggle of the Palestinian people to conduct terror attacks in other parts of the world. Until there's a comprehensive approach that addresses the grievances of not only the Palestinians but also those of the Israelis, the conflict between the two will continue.

Okay so even if everything you say is true, what's your alternative? Israel does nothing? Just takes this one on the chin and goes about normal life? Sits around and waits for next years possibly more massive attack from their genocidal neighbors?

 

[Chesterton]

Did the Gazans come from Egypt? If so then probably Egypt should take them back.

The Arabs came from Arabia, through bloody conquest. Muhammad should take them back.

 

[Vanellus]

Did the Gazans come from Egypt? If so then probably Egypt should take them back.

No they didn't.

 

[Vanellus]

The Arabs came from Arabia, through bloody conquest. Muhammad should take them back.

That means the Jews came from Europe - at least many did.

 

[Chesterton]

That means the Jews came from Europe - at least many did.

There came to be three recognized groups of Jews after the diaspora. One of them never left the Middle East.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

At lease some people were

That means the Jews came from Europe - at least many did.

The Jews were disbursed from their land though out the world, and then regathered. You can read all about it in the Bible.

 

[durangodawood]

The Arabs came from Arabia, through bloody conquest. Muhammad should take them back.

Did the Gazans leave Arabia to settle en masse in Gaza? I dont think so. Essentially its a refugee city. And where are they refugees from?

 

[Wings like Eagles]

Did the Gazans leave Arabia to settle en masse in Gaza? I dont think so. Essentially its a refugee city. And where are they refugees from?

Some believe, King Solomon gave the property of the Gaza Strip to his Egyptian wife and her family.

 

[durangodawood]

Some believe, King Solomon gave the property of the Gaza Strip to his Egyptian wife and her family.

Lots of ancient history here. None of which is really valid for conferring land title in a rule of law based order.

The alternative is a world in which people simply do and take what they want by force. Generally people are unhappy with the misery and instability of that kind of chaos.

 

[Chesterton]

Did the Gazans leave Arabia to settle en masse in Gaza? I dont think so.

No, the current crop of Gazans were born there.

Essentially its a refugee city. And where are they refugees from?

Nobody knows. Once upon a time there was no such thing as Palestinians. "Palestine" was a word given to the region by the ancient Romans in order to insult the Jews, possibly because it's a version of the name "Philistine".

Interesting trivia: The Arabic language does not have the sound for the letter "P". If you go to an Arab restaurant the waiter might ask you if you want a "cub of soub" rather than a cup of soup. Kinda like if Germans had no sound to pronounce the D in Deutschland.