Hamas-Israel News Thread

[adrianmonk]

Winning isn't everything. If you try to win all the time, you might end up losing everything.

What exactly do you mean by this in the context of these events ?

But I don't think it's a good idea in this present day and age to use indiscriminate aerial bombardment over a densely populated area as first resort. Would have worked in the 40's, 60's, 80, 90's..... But the year 2023? I don't think so. People are no longer going to allow it.

I don't think its that indiscriminate (as in carpet bombing from WW2). But Israel is going to prioritize the lives on their soldiers. This reduces the ability of entrenched Hamas militants from secreting and using more rockets against Israeli territory. Urban warfare is messy and deadly which Jane's USAF combat game will not show.

People today are not as cold and indifferent to other races, especially to the Arabs as few decades ago. If Israel kills enough Palestinians, she might actually end up losing support of her allies and who may even start supporting Palestinians (where the help can possibly end up with the Hamas) which is going to be really bad for them. If not, bad for all of us.

There is definitely a possibility that others might end up seeing Israel's response as too severe in the future. It remains to be seen how they will do their ground assault (if they end up doing a ground invasion). If Hamas had just attacked Israeli military bases, the response might have been less severe, but wanton murder and rape against civilians will provoke a big response. It is unfortunate. Palestinian civilians are the biggest victims here as they have to deal with the Israeli punishment in response to Hamas' actions. If they stand up against Hamas, they get punished there as well.

I understand where you are coming from, and having empathy for the millions of innocent civilians is warranted. Hamas wants Israel to demolish Gaza so they can prop up the Palestinian cause to garner sympathy and funds. They don't have the best interests of the Palestinians in mind.

I grew up in the Middle East and have gone to school with Palestinians (the lucky ones who were able to escape the refugee camps). I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians along with opposition to some Israeli policies. However I also support Israel's right to exist and defend itself from these kind of attacks. They HAVE to respond and respond with force. Anything else will only encourage more attacks like the one from Hamas. Sadly the Israeli response will also motivate others to join the Hamas cause and this cycle will continue. Like Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind".

 

[Nithavela]

Yes I've heard of that, but if you remember Baghdad Bob, my story is more true-to-life, therefore more true, and more important.

Of course. I also like to willfully spread lies because they fit my worldview.

 

[Chesterton]

Of course. I also like to willfully spread lies because they fit my worldview.

That's a big problem with you materialist types. You think a story has to be factually true in order to be meaningfully true. Nothing could be further from true.

 

[Arcangl86]

Are you not aware that last Saturday morning Hamas, unprovoked, started all this with indiscriminate aerial bombardment of innocent civilians?

Yes, which is why they are terrorists.

I have a memory from elementary school when I was a kid. I got in a fight with another kid, and we were both in trouble. I tried to tell the teacher "he started it". He said the same about me. The teacher said "it doesn't matter who started it, fighting is wrong!" At the time I thought that was a stupid thing to say, and I still think so today. It very much matters who started it.

That might be true with something like a schoolyard fight, but not when it comes to war. Atrocities are atrocities regardless of who started it. Both sides are committing war crimes and potentially crimes against humanity right now. Israel doesn't get a pass simple because Hamas did it first.

 

[Chesterton]

Both sides are committing war crimes and potentially crimes against humanity right now.

Which war crimes are the Israelis guilty of?

 

[Nithavela]

That's a big problem with you materialist types. You think a story has to be factually true in order to be meaningfully true. Nothing could be further from true.

The problem with you relativist types is that you even dare to insinuate that there is more than one kind of truth. This has lead to todays post-factual world, where everyone lives in their own reality and discussion between people who live in too disparate realities is next to impossible.

 

[timewerx]

However I also support Israel's right to exist and defend itself from these kind of attacks. They HAVE to respond and respond with force. Anything else will only encourage more attacks like the one from Hamas. Sadly the Israeli response will also motivate others to join the Hamas cause and this cycle will continue. Like Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind".

Israel's idea of defense/deterrence is to shoot teenage boys in the knees with live rounds, shooting demonstrators with live rounds and also shooting Palestinian paramedics and and their ambulances with live rounds when they respond to their wounded.

That was long before the latest attack.

Urban warfare is messy and deadly which Jane's USAF combat game will not show.

I've also played a bit of first-person shooter (FPS) game Battlefield 2 in the early 2000's. Mainly as armor and medic (infantry). Saw lots of urban warfare action and yes, you die A LOT more often driving a tank in a FPS game than flying a fighter plane made of aluminum foil in Jane's USAF simulator.

I get what you're talking about. Higher casualties with ground forces than air forces. Even tanks are so vulnerable (in the game, we just shoot the tanks from the buildings above at the top where the armor is thinnest and least protected.

But you can't achieve your objectives with aerial warfare alone. How do you expect to wipe out the Hamas, blowing up one building at a time with very poor intelligence?

A few days of large scale carpet bombing might actually drive them all out or even kill most of them, demoralize them severely and achieve your objectives but you would also end up killing hundreds of thousands of civilians and the condemnation of the whole world.

If Israel can't spare losing their soldiers, they can call up their allies like USA who is very willing to help and might be able to send them marines or even special ops.

 

[Vanellus]

Which war crimes are the Israelis guilty of?

The decision to imprison Gaza even more tightly than usual has also been implemented. The crossings are closed and goods cannot be brought in. Israel has disconnected Gaza from the power grid and the population now depends on the small local power plant, which will only hold out for several days until the diesel fuel runs out. Water is also in short supply: almost all the water extracted in Gaza requires desalination or purification to drink, and these rely on electricity. Israel has also cut back on the water it sells to Gaza, and part of the water network has been damaged by bombing.

There is no justification for these actions, which constitute war crimes openly ordered by top Israeli officials. Even in the face of horror and terror – intentionally harming civilians, their property and civilian infrastructure is always prohibited. One crime does not justify another, nor does one kind of injustice justify another. Acts of revenge are prohibited by basic moral principles and by the provisions of international law that Israel is obliged to uphold.

Contrary to what Israeli ministers are implying, this policy is not new, but has been implemented towards Gaza for many years. The death, destruction, pain and horror it has wrought have led to nothing but more horror. It is time to demand to a different reality – a new future for all those who live here.
from B'tselem

 

[Landon Caeli]

That's a big problem with you materialist types. You think a story has to be factually true in order to be meaningfully true. Nothing could be further from true.

That's the weirdest comment I've heard in a while... A little too weird.

 

[Arcangl86]

Which war crimes are the Israelis guilty of?

Israel has been attacking hospitals and ambulances, as well as schools that are being used as emergency shelters. They aren't being particularly careful about civilian causalities including doing things like hitting crowded markets and mosques. And while i understand they didn't actually do it, the threat to completely cut off Gaza would also violate the laws of war because that's collective punishment.

 

[JosephZ]

I think the IDF will be taking care of that for them.

Israel is not going to be able to destroy Hamas militarily. It may drive Hamas underground for awhile, but they will reappear at some point in the future, perhaps under another name, but it will still be the same actors. The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue. With every Palistinian child, brother, sister, father, mother, or grandparent that is killed by Isreali forces, another potential terrorist is born.

Other side effects of the ongoing military campaign against Hamas will be the possibility of splinter groups forming and foreign terrorist groups and lone wolves who sympathize with Hamas and the struggle of the Palestinian people to conduct terror attacks in other parts of the world. Until there's a comprehensive approach that addresses the grievances of not only the Palestinians but also those of the Israelis, the conflict between the two will continue.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Israel is not going to be able to destroy Hamas militarily. It may drive Hamas underground for awhile, but they will reappear at some point in the future, perhaps under another name, but it will still be the same actors. The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue. With every Palistinian child, brother, sister, father, mother, or grandparent that is killed by Isreali forces, another potential terrorist is born.

Other side effects of the ongoing military campaign against Hamas will be the possibility of splinter groups forming and foreign terrorist groups and lone wolves who sympathize with Hamas and the struggle of the Palestinian people to conduct terror attacks in other parts of the world. Until there's a comprehensive approach that addresses the grievances of not only the Palestinians but also those of the Israelis, the conflict between the two will continue.

How hard would it be to get all the Palestinians to leave the Gaza strip? Maybe a large scale exodus like we saw during the Syrian war.

...Because if they were all pushed out, that would solve the problem of Hamas re-emerging in any kind of effective way.

 

[Arcangl86]

How hard would it be to get all the Palestinians to leave the Gaza strip? Maybe a large scale exodus like we saw during the Syrian war.

There are over 2 million people in Gaza, many who have lived there for generations. Where would they go?

 

[Landon Caeli]

There are over 2 million people in Gaza, many who have lived there for generations. Where would they go?

If it were a humanitarian crisis, then surrounding Arab countries would be compelled to accept them. Like they did the Syrians before.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

There are over 2 million people in Gaza, many who have lived there for generations. Where would they go?

Egypt

 

[essentialsaltes]

Trump faults Netanyahu, calls Hezbollah ‘very smart’ amid Israel war​

“He has been hurt very badly because of what’s happened here,” Trump said of Netanyahu in an excerpt of an interview with Fox News presenter Brian Kilmeade that aired Wednesday night. “He was not prepared. He was not prepared and Israel was not prepared.”

[Elsewhere, spilling the tea on potentially classified conversations with Israel in the lead up to the killing of Iran's General Soleimani.] “I’ll never forget that Bibi Netanyahu let us down. That was a very terrible thing,” Trump said in Wednesday’s speech. “So we were disappointed by that. Very disappointed. But we did the job ourself. It was absolute precision, magnificent, beautiful job. And then Bibi tried to take credit for it. That didn’t make me feel too good. But that’s all right.”

Later on Wednesday, Trump, the clear polling leader in the Republican presidential race, complimented the intelligence of Hezbollah, which has been designated a terrorist organization by the United States. The Iran-aligned group, based in Lebanon, exchanged fire with Israeli forces on the country’s northern border Wednesday.

In the same breath, Trump acknowledged that his remark about Hezbollah could be controversial, immediately adding, “The press doesn’t like when they say it.” He went on to repeat that he views [Chinese leader] Xi as a “very smart man” because “1.4 billion people, he controls it with an iron fist.”

“They kill me the next day — ‘I said he was smart,’ ” Trump mocked. “What am I going to say? But Hezbollah, they’re very smart.”

He added, speaking again of Israel’s enemies, “They’re vicious and they’re smart and boy, are they vicious.”

 

[durangodawood]

Egypt

Did the Gazans come from Egypt? If so then probably Egypt should take them back.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

“He has been hurt very badly because of what’s happened here,” Trump said of Netanyahu in an excerpt of an interview with Fox News presenter Brian Kilmeade that aired Wednesday night. “He was not prepared. He was not prepared and Israel was not prepared.”

This is true, Israel even with all their planning and security cannot protect their people, no Government can.

Hero Israeli woman saves whole village leading squad to kill 25 Hamas terrorists

A BRAVE Israeli woman has been hailed as a hero after saving her entire community from blood-thirsty Hamas terrorists. Inbar Lieberman helped coordinate defensive measures to kill two dozen Hamas m…

www.the-sun.com

.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Did the Gazans come from Egypt? If so then probably Egypt should take them back.

We all came from Africa. And Egtpt is in Africa.

 

[Landon Caeli]

This is true, Israel even with all their planning and security cannot protect their people, no Government can.

It's a crying shame that a country even needs to have an "Iron Dome", just to survive.