Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

[David Kent]

,

The physical Jerusalem ceased before God, we are in the new Jerusalem now. The nation of Israel (and physical Jerusalem) ceasing to be before God in the Jeremiah 31:36 promise is tied to the new covenant in Jeremiah 31. We can know the Jeremiah 31:35-36 promise will come to pass when the ordinances of the sun and moon depart from before God. The sun and moon are used to tell time and this is also related to the covenants.

Let me start with the bigger picture as I see it. In the tabernacle and also in Solomon’s temple, God dwelt in the ark and that’s where God was or at least the glory, shekhinah was. During this time, time itself was marked by which Jewish king or kings were ruling. This ended when they were taken to Babylon.

Babylon is the start of the times of the Gentiles. These times are marked by the different beast kingdoms and also seen in the statue in Daniel 2. The times of the Gentiles ends or fullness happens when the Daniel 2 statue gets destroyed.

Currently, today we are in the New Testament or New Covenant, in the invisible kingdom of God where the temple is the body of believers, individually and collectively. This kingdom is everlasting and is ruled by Christ who will never die again and this everlasting kingdom has no time demarcations other than when it starts. That is why there is no need for the sun or moon in new Jerusalem which we have come to.

Ok, there was a period of time where the new covenant started and the old covenant had not yet vanished. This time period I believe was the clay mixed with iron in the Daniel 2 statue. We know from Hebrews 8:13 that the old covenant at that time was ready to vanish away, the old covenant is the partial blindness that happened to Israel while the new covenant was in force. This condition remained until the fullness of the Gentiles came in. The last act of the Gentiles in Daniel was to make the old covenant vanish through the sacking of Jerusalem.

There is no going back to the old covenant or old Jerusalem. The new covenant, new Jerusalem, and His kingdom are everlasting.

I didn't say the old covenant would be renewed, but Jesus said the Jews would be exiled amongst the nations, till the times of the Gentiles was over.

 

[grafted branch]

,


I didn't say the old covenant would be renewed, but Jesus said the Jews would be exiled amongst the nations, till the times of the Gentiles was over.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:



The Deliverer out of Sion dwells within us, no matter where physically on earth a Jew or Gentile lives they are not exiled under the new covenant if they are saved. Only under the old covenant could a believing Jew be exiled.

 

[Bob_1000]

The statue is still standing. We are in the feet and toes period now. Since Rome was divided amongst 10 tribes in the 5th century and since then the nations or the Roman empire have never reunited into one, being strong at one time and week at others.



Who said that, I didn't. Daniel 7 covers the same period, and lasts till the saints take the kingdom. revelation covers the same period as the fourth kingdom.

It was just a general comment, it wasn't directed at anyone.

 

[DavidPT]

The nation of Israel (and physical Jerusalem) ceasing to be before God in the Jeremiah 31:36 promise is tied to the new covenant in Jeremiah 31. We can know the Jeremiah 31:35-36 promise will come to pass when the ordinances of the sun and moon depart from before God. The sun and moon are used to tell time and this is also related to the covenants.

-----------------------------------------
Can the Jews Be Destroyed?

A Message For All Those
Who Say Israel Has No Future

(or a message for all Jew-haters determined
to try to use force
to insure that Israel has no future)

God has given an unfailing formula for the destruction of Israel. If you want Israel to cease being a nation, then God has indicated exactly what must take place. Every Jew-hating Muslim and every anti-Semitic Arab who is bent upon the destruction of Israel should diligently study these passages of Scripture, for in them is the secret of Israel's demise.



Also every Christian leader who denies that the nation Israel has a wonderful future in their land, under their Messiah, according to all the kingdom prophecies given by the prophets, should give serious consideration to what God has said must happen if Israel is to cease being a nation before Him.

Jeremiah 31:35-36
35: Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.



God has appointed the sun to shine by day and He has appointed the moon and stars to shine by night. He also stirs up the sea so that its waves roar (see NIV translation of Jeremiah 31:35-36). God says that if these ordinances depart from before Him, then will the seed (descendants) of Israel cease from being a nation before Him! The Jewish people can take great comfort from this promise. Every day when they see the sun, every night when they see the moon and stars, every visit to the ocean when they see the waves in action---they can know that their preservation as a people is secure!



The enemies of Israel need to change their strategy! Instead of aiming their mighty weapons of destruction upon the Jews and Jerusalem, they need to aim their missiles at the sun, moon and stars! They could start with the moon and try to knock it out of orbit! Instead of spending time in their secret laboratories trying to figure out how to deliver chemical weapons, they need to devise a plan to neutralize the waves of the ocean! But as long as the waves are roaring, and the sun, moon and stars are shining, Israel's future is secure!

Jeremiah 31:37
37: Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured...I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD


If the enemies of the Jews get frustrated by trying to vaporize the heavenly bodies and trying to neutralize the waves of the ocean, then God has another strategy which is guaranteed to destroy the Jews. All they need to do is measure the heaven above! The vastness of heaven (the second heaven, that is, the universe) is beyond the comprehension of our feeble minds. Scientists, now equipped with the Hubble telescope, tell us that there are at least 10 times more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand in all the beaches of the world! And yet, the further we look into the vast expanse of space, the more stars we see. The universe cannot be measured by man, nor can the stars be counted.



The enemies of Israel again need to abandon their hostile attacks against Israel, and start to develop bigger and better telescopes! Because only then will God cast off all the seed (descendants) of Israel. Israel's future is secure until they are successful!



Jeremiah 31:37
37: Thus saith the LORD; If...the foundations of the earth [can be] searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD



If looking up and measuring the heavens seems to be a task too great, then the enemies of the Jews can look down and seek to search out the earth beneath! Man's greatest efforts at searching the earth beneath and digging and drilling into it have barely scratched the surface! But if man can dig to the center of the earth, then God will cast off the seed (descendants) of Israel.

The enemies of Israel, having failed to obliterate the sun, moon and stars, having failed to neutralize the roaring waves of the ocean, having failed to measure the universe and count all the stars, still have one remaining solution if they are to destroy Israel. They had better start passing out shovels!

For further study see Jeremiah 33:19-26.

Those Christians who teach that the nation Israel has no future in the plan and purpose of God must face the same gargantuan obstacles as outlined above. How much better to simply take God at His Word and understand Israel's kingdom promises in the normal and natural and obvious sense.

How to Destroy the Jews - Does Israel Have a Future?

www.middletownbiblechurch.org

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[grafted branch]

-----------------------------------------
Can the Jews Be Destroyed?

A Message For All Those
Who Say Israel Has No Future

(or a message for all Jew-haters determined
to try to use force
to insure that Israel has no future)

God has given an unfailing formula for the destruction of Israel. If you want Israel to cease being a nation, then God has indicated exactly what must take place. Every Jew-hating Muslim and every anti-Semitic Arab who is bent upon the destruction of Israel should diligently study these passages of Scripture, for in them is the secret of Israel's demise.



Also every Christian leader who denies that the nation Israel has a wonderful future in their land, under their Messiah, according to all the kingdom prophecies given by the prophets, should give serious consideration to what God has said must happen if Israel is to cease being a nation before Him.

Jeremiah 31:35-36
35: Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.



God has appointed the sun to shine by day and He has appointed the moon and stars to shine by night. He also stirs up the sea so that its waves roar (see NIV translation of Jeremiah 31:35-36). God says that if these ordinances depart from before Him, then will the seed (descendants) of Israel cease from being a nation before Him! The Jewish people can take great comfort from this promise. Every day when they see the sun, every night when they see the moon and stars, every visit to the ocean when they see the waves in action---they can know that their preservation as a people is secure!



The enemies of Israel need to change their strategy! Instead of aiming their mighty weapons of destruction upon the Jews and Jerusalem, they need to aim their missiles at the sun, moon and stars! They could start with the moon and try to knock it out of orbit! Instead of spending time in their secret laboratories trying to figure out how to deliver chemical weapons, they need to devise a plan to neutralize the waves of the ocean! But as long as the waves are roaring, and the sun, moon and stars are shining, Israel's future is secure!

Jeremiah 31:37
37: Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured...I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD


If the enemies of the Jews get frustrated by trying to vaporize the heavenly bodies and trying to neutralize the waves of the ocean, then God has another strategy which is guaranteed to destroy the Jews. All they need to do is measure the heaven above! The vastness of heaven (the second heaven, that is, the universe) is beyond the comprehension of our feeble minds. Scientists, now equipped with the Hubble telescope, tell us that there are at least 10 times more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand in all the beaches of the world! And yet, the further we look into the vast expanse of space, the more stars we see. The universe cannot be measured by man, nor can the stars be counted.



The enemies of Israel again need to abandon their hostile attacks against Israel, and start to develop bigger and better telescopes! Because only then will God cast off all the seed (descendants) of Israel. Israel's future is secure until they are successful!



Jeremiah 31:37
37: Thus saith the LORD; If...the foundations of the earth [can be] searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD



If looking up and measuring the heavens seems to be a task too great, then the enemies of the Jews can look down and seek to search out the earth beneath! Man's greatest efforts at searching the earth beneath and digging and drilling into it have barely scratched the surface! But if man can dig to the center of the earth, then God will cast off the seed (descendants) of Israel.

The enemies of Israel, having failed to obliterate the sun, moon and stars, having failed to neutralize the roaring waves of the ocean, having failed to measure the universe and count all the stars, still have one remaining solution if they are to destroy Israel. They had better start passing out shovels!

For further study see Jeremiah 33:19-26.

Those Christians who teach that the nation Israel has no future in the plan and purpose of God must face the same gargantuan obstacles as outlined above. How much better to simply take God at His Word and understand Israel's kingdom promises in the normal and natural and obvious sense.

How to Destroy the Jews - Does Israel Have a Future?

www.middletownbiblechurch.org

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

What’s interesting is that this article concentrates on the very verses that are proof texts for why Israel will not remain a nation before God. They make absolutely no mention of why the ordinances are not being obeyed in verses such as Isaiah 60:20. Nor does it mention the sun being darkened, the moon not giving her light, and the stars falling from heaven in Matthew 24:29.

They just seem to think if we currently see the sun and moon then we should jump to the conclusion that the national status of Israel is secure. I guess what they’re saying is since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.

 

[DavidPT]

The nation of Israel (and physical Jerusalem) ceasing to be before God in the Jeremiah 31:36 promise is tied to the new covenant in Jeremiah 31. We can know the Jeremiah 31:35-36 promise will come to pass when the ordinances of the sun and moon depart from before God. The sun and moon are used to tell time and this is also related to the covenants.

Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.


The point this verse is undeniably making is like making the following point, for example.

If there is a highest number that can be counted to and that there are no numbers higher than that number, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Obviously, and even you wouldn't possibly try and dispute this, there is no highest number that can be counted to. No such number exists. Even God can't possibly know a number that doesn't exist. Most of us already learned in grade school that no matter what number one counts to, it will never be the highest number that can be counted to, because all one has to do is add '1' to that number each time and it will always be higher than the previous number every single time. One could do that forever and still never come up with the highest number that can be counted to.

Obviously then, this example shows that Jeremiah 31:36 is dealing with an impossibilty, not a possibility instead.

 

[Bob_1000]

-----------------------------------------
Can the Jews Be Destroyed?

A Message For All Those
Who Say Israel Has No Future

(or a message for all Jew-haters determined
to try to use force
to insure that Israel has no future)

God has given an unfailing formula for the destruction of Israel. If you want Israel to cease being a nation, then God has indicated exactly what must take place. Every Jew-hating Muslim and every anti-Semitic Arab who is bent upon the destruction of Israel should diligently study these passages of Scripture, for in them is the secret of Israel's demise.



Also every Christian leader who denies that the nation Israel has a wonderful future in their land, under their Messiah, according to all the kingdom prophecies given by the prophets, should give serious consideration to what God has said must happen if Israel is to cease being a nation before Him.

Jeremiah 31:35-36
35: Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.



God has appointed the sun to shine by day and He has appointed the moon and stars to shine by night. He also stirs up the sea so that its waves roar (see NIV translation of Jeremiah 31:35-36). God says that if these ordinances depart from before Him, then will the seed (descendants) of Israel cease from being a nation before Him! The Jewish people can take great comfort from this promise. Every day when they see the sun, every night when they see the moon and stars, every visit to the ocean when they see the waves in action---they can know that their preservation as a people is secure!



The enemies of Israel need to change their strategy! Instead of aiming their mighty weapons of destruction upon the Jews and Jerusalem, they need to aim their missiles at the sun, moon and stars! They could start with the moon and try to knock it out of orbit! Instead of spending time in their secret laboratories trying to figure out how to deliver chemical weapons, they need to devise a plan to neutralize the waves of the ocean! But as long as the waves are roaring, and the sun, moon and stars are shining, Israel's future is secure!

Jeremiah 31:37
37: Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured...I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD


If the enemies of the Jews get frustrated by trying to vaporize the heavenly bodies and trying to neutralize the waves of the ocean, then God has another strategy which is guaranteed to destroy the Jews. All they need to do is measure the heaven above! The vastness of heaven (the second heaven, that is, the universe) is beyond the comprehension of our feeble minds. Scientists, now equipped with the Hubble telescope, tell us that there are at least 10 times more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand in all the beaches of the world! And yet, the further we look into the vast expanse of space, the more stars we see. The universe cannot be measured by man, nor can the stars be counted.



The enemies of Israel again need to abandon their hostile attacks against Israel, and start to develop bigger and better telescopes! Because only then will God cast off all the seed (descendants) of Israel. Israel's future is secure until they are successful!



Jeremiah 31:37
37: Thus saith the LORD; If...the foundations of the earth [can be] searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD



If looking up and measuring the heavens seems to be a task too great, then the enemies of the Jews can look down and seek to search out the earth beneath! Man's greatest efforts at searching the earth beneath and digging and drilling into it have barely scratched the surface! But if man can dig to the center of the earth, then God will cast off the seed (descendants) of Israel.

The enemies of Israel, having failed to obliterate the sun, moon and stars, having failed to neutralize the roaring waves of the ocean, having failed to measure the universe and count all the stars, still have one remaining solution if they are to destroy Israel. They had better start passing out shovels!

For further study see Jeremiah 33:19-26.

Those Christians who teach that the nation Israel has no future in the plan and purpose of God must face the same gargantuan obstacles as outlined above. How much better to simply take God at His Word and understand Israel's kingdom promises in the normal and natural and obvious sense.

How to Destroy the Jews - Does Israel Have a Future?

www.middletownbiblechurch.org

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's important to remember that there are 2 Israels in the bible. One Israel is the Israel of God, which are those that are born from above and the other Israel is the natural born (not born from above) or earthly descendants of Israel.

All of those verses in your post apply to the Israel that is born from above. The verses below apply to the earthly descendants of Israel.

Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
Amos 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

Jesus, warning the earthly descendants that "summer was coming", tried to get the earthly descendants to convert to heavenly descendants in the verse below.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

 

[DavidPT]

It's important to remember that there are 2 Israels in the bible. One Israel is the Israel of God, which are those that are born from above and the other Israel is the natural born (not born from above) or earthly descendants of Israel.

All of those verses in your post apply to the Israel that is born from above. The verses below apply to the earthly descendants of Israel.

Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
Amos 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

Jesus, warning the earthly descendants that "summer was coming", tried to get the earthly descendants to convert to heavenly descendants in the verse below.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

In my view, there is only one Israel, and that currently it is comprised of believing Israel and unbelieving Israel, and that believing Israel, this is what believing Gentiles are grafted into. It is then believing Israel, which is comprised of both Jew and Gentile believers, being that which will remain a nation before God forever. There is not going to be 2 Israels in the future post the 2nd coming where one consists of believing Jews and the other consists of unbelieving Jews.

 

[Bob_1000]

In my view, there is only one Israel, and that currently it is comprised of believing Israel and unbelieving Israel, and that believing Israel, this is what believing Gentiles are grafted into. It is then believing Israel, which is comprised of both Jew and Gentile believers, being that which will remain a nation before God forever. There is not going to be 2 Israels in the future post the 2nd coming where one consists of believing Jews and the other consists of unbelieving Jews.

What’s your opinion of Amos 8 where God said he was done with Israel forever?

 

[CoreyD]

Apology accepted, although I don’t think you needed to apologize in the first place, I’m not offended.

Sometimes it’s hard to know what someone’s attitude really is on a forum like this. I’m not angry or upset, I have a thick skin, as they say.

I have a thick skin

That's good. I hope it's tougher than Leviathan's. You're going to need it, against these facts.

I just don’t want to keep trying to show you that verses in Matthew, that talk about the same kingdom that’s in Daniel 7, should be included in a discussion about Daniel 7.

I just don’t want to keep trying to show you that verses in Matthew, that talk about the same kingdom that’s in Daniel 7, should be included in a discussion about Daniel 7

I thought that was frustrating you.

Daniel 7 talks about the saints possessing the kingdom. If I do a search for “kingdom of God” I get 182 verses, “kingdom of heaven” I get 67 verses. That’s 249 verses total and they are spread out across many chapters. For me, they all have a potential to impact how and when the saints possessing the kingdom should be interpreted in Daniel 7.

That’s 249 verses total and they are spread out across many chapters. For me, they all have a potential to impact how and when the saints possessing the kingdom should be interpreted in Daniel 7

That's what I was thinking the problem is.

I believe the stone that breaks the statue in Daniel 2 is Jesus Christ. Our conversation kept taking steps back to the point I felt I needed to ask you if you think Jesus is the Messiah.

Why do you feel that way. Could our thought - our thinking, beliefs, cause us to focus on, and be driven by an idea?
It does happen, right?

With regard to your question : Is Jesus the Messiah
Matthew 1:16

Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Mary gave birth to Jesus, who is called the Messiah.

John 4:25, 26

The woman said, “I know the Messiah is coming - the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
Then Jesus told her, “ I Am the Messiah!”

When John the Baptist sent to ask Jesus, "Are You the coming One, or are we to look for another?'" He was really asking, "Are you the promised Messiah/Christ?" Luke 7:20
When Jesus asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” Matthew 16:13 Peter replied, “You are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the living God.” Matthew 16:15

I believe the scriptures. Jesus is the Christ - the promised Messiah.
Only the unbelievers did not and still do not believe that.
Luke 22:67 - “If you are the Messiah,” they said, “tell us.” Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me,
Luke 23:39 - One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

If you are interested in resuming our conversation I really need to know where you stand on this question because it is fundamental to how we will ultimately interpret the Bible. If you would rather just agree that we disagree I’m good with that too, sometimes that’s the best way to go.

Thanks. I am really interested in this conversation. I didn't spend my time going through an entire Chapter, for the fun of it.

I don't believe this is of matter of different interpretations. I kinda hate that idea, which I have heard others saying, because it tends to render 1 Timothy 2:3, 4; 2 Timothy 2:25, 26; 2 Timothy 3:7, and others of that kind, void, but the scriptures aren't void, as we know.

When atheists and skeptics taunt that we cannot get an accurate knowledge of the truth, from the Bible, because they are countless different interpretations in Christianity, and professed Christians play that ball and get slammed, that hurts.

Hence, I avoid interpretations of people, especially when the interpretation or explanation, is given in the Bible itself.
I admit, that's why I wasn't taking the route you were trying to take me.

I was allowing Daniel to give us the explanation.
We agreed the timeline is key. Daniel gave us that.
If we decided to interpret Jesus' words, in order to get the timeline, we are basically saying that we get the timeline from our interpretations, all the while, placing that over Daniel's account which he took time to report - giving us the timeline.

When we do that, we squeezed a puzzle piece into the wrong slot, because we didn't want the puzzle piece handed to us, which fit, perfectly.
Yes, it calls for us to adjust our understanding, and may lead to something different to the idea we had, but that's the course of humility - a beautiful quality in God's eyes, and those of his people.

So, I've been trying to point out, through Daniel 7, that Rome was no longer the world power when the Messiah and his Heirs - the Saints - received the kingdom.
That timeline, means an interpreting of Jesus words to mean that the kingdom began ruling in the first century A.D., is incorrect.
The scriptures should override our interpretations, and any views we have reached.

The scriptures should also override what we think.
For example, at Daniel 2:34-36, we read :
You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
“This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king.

Daniel continues in verse 44 :
And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

If we, read Daniel 2:34-36, and we interpret the stone as the Christ, we haven't given consideration to the fact that God gave Daniel the interpretation, and Daniel wrote down the interpretation for us.
According to God's interpretation, the stone is the kingdom.

This is the beauty of the Bible. One part interprets the other, so our interpretation are not needed.
This is how we come to an accurate knowledge of truth - reading the Bible, and allowing what it says to guide our understanding.
"Christianity" today has given the skeptics ammunition to shoot at Christians, by their casual use of their interpretations.
God's people on the other hand, "correctly handles the word of truth". 2 Timothy 2:15

Regarding Daniel 7 and the timeline, though, we have a key.
Does it fit the rest of the scriptures? It does. If might not fit an interpretation.
However, I am open to listening to what objections you have, and what interpretations don't fit Daniel's.

 

[CoreyD]

In my view, there is only one Israel, and that currently it is comprised of believing Israel and unbelieving Israel, and that believing Israel, this is what believing Gentiles are grafted into. It is then believing Israel, which is comprised of both Jew and Gentile believers, being that which will remain a nation before God forever. There is not going to be 2 Israels in the future post the 2nd coming where one consists of believing Jews and the other consists of unbelieving Jews.

Reminds me of what Paul said at Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;

Not the way man sees. 1 Samuel 16:7

 

[CoreyD]

That can't be correct as Jesus said that Jews would be

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles........ until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That was partially fulfilled when Allenby marched through the gates of Jerusalem, thus ending Turkish rule. As my avatar shows.

That's correct. Luke 21:24, shows Jesus referred to a future fulfillment of Daniel 4:16, 17.

 

[grafted branch]

I thought that was frustrating you.

It’s not frustrating me, sometimes things get to the point that it doesn’t make sense for me to continue.

If I said the sky is blue and someone else argues it’s pink because they saw a pink sunset, this type of thing doesn’t frustrate me, it’s trivial. The sky is blue in color almost all day long with some notable exceptions but it’s a generally accepted rule to say the sky is blue. It seems some people want to debate for the sake of debating, which is fine, I engage in this myself sometimes, and we are in an area of the forum where debate is expected. Sometimes I just don’t want to keep repeating myself when I don’t think it’s beneficial.

If we, read Daniel 2:34-36, and we interpret the stone as the Christ, we haven't given consideration to the fact that God gave Daniel the interpretation, and Daniel wrote down the interpretation for us.
According to God's interpretation, the stone is the kingdom.

I’m ok with saying the stone is the kingdom, although I think the stone refers to Jesus because there are other references to Him being the stone that the builders rejected. I think Jesus is the cornerstone of the kingdom so I don’t think it’s necessary to debate this point.

Daniel 2:44 says in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom. We know from Matthew 23:13 that the scribes and Pharisees shut up the kingdom of heaven against men. Would you at least agree that the kingdom was set up in the first century?

I believe the scriptures. Jesus is the Christ - the promised Messiah.

Thank you for answering that, I appreciate it.

 

[CoreyD]

If we, read Daniel 2:34-36, and we interpret the stone as the Christ, we haven't given consideration to the fact that God gave Daniel the interpretation, and Daniel wrote down the interpretation for us.
According to God's interpretation, the stone is the kingdom.

I’m ok with saying the stone is the kingdom, although I think the stone refers to Jesus because there are other references to Him being the stone that the builders rejected. I think Jesus is the cornerstone of the kingdom so I don’t think it’s necessary to debate this point.

That's my point grafted.
When someone pulls a verse from the Bible, and applies that verse to something completely different, they are no longer using the Bible. They are using their ideas.
For example, if I said Peter is God, because the Bible calls God the rock, and Peter is the rock... ?

The rock cut from a mountain is not the rockmass. They are two different verses talking about two different things.
The angel explains the 'illustrative" dream God used.

The cows in Pharaoh's dream are not the seven cows Noah took on the ark.
The words of Peter need to be given serious consideration. 2 Peter 3:16 It is a serious matter.

Daniel 2:44 says in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom. We know from Matthew 23:13 that the scribes and Pharisees shut up the kingdom of heaven against men. Would you at least agree that the kingdom was set up in the first century?

How about this one. Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.
Wouldn't that make a stronger argument?
So, the Kingdom was set up in Moses' day. That is, if we are interpreting these words as you are.
What do you say to that?

Would I consider ignoring Daniel and other scriptures? I cannot agree to that.

John preached, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand! Matthew 3:2
Jesus, preached, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand! Matthew 4:17
Jesus taught his followers to pray, 'Thy kingdom come.' Matthew 6:10
Jesus trained his disciples to preach, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand! Matthew 10:7
The disciples of Jesus knew that the kingdom would be given to his chosen ones - them. Matthew 20:20-23
...........
Luke 22:28-30
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

God told Daniel, In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. Daniel 2:44
Daniel 7 gives us the exact point.
Not the time of Babylon.
Not the time of Media-Persia
Not the time of Greece
Not the time of Rome
After the time of the little horn.

At that time, God shows Daniel, the Messiah is given the kingdom; the Saints are given the kingdom.
We know from scripture when the kingdom of God, was set up, or began to rule from heaven.

I cannot ignore God's word, to accept ideas or interpretations from men.
May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, “THAT THOU MIGHTEST BE JUSTIFIED IN THY WORDS, AND MIGHTEST PREVAIL WHEN THOU ART JUDGED.” Romans 3:4

You do want me to listen to God, I hope.
So, I'm willing to make an agreement with you.
If you can show me, in Daniel Chapter 7, that Daniel did not tell us at what point in the succession of world powers, the kingdom was given to the son of man, and the Saints, I will agree with you.

Aside from that, I'll like to know : When in the first century do you think the kingdom was set up though. 30... 40... 50... 60... 100 A.D.. and what scripture do you use to show this?

 

[grafted branch]

How about this one. Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.
Wouldn't that make a stronger argument?
So, the Kingdom was set up in Moses' day. That is, if we are interpreting these words as you are.
What do you say to that?

Yes that would, I’ve brought that verse up in previous posts but I still don’t know how you have harmonized it with your view.

At what point in time do the chief priest and Pharisees possess the kingdom? They obviously have to have it before it can be taken from them, and those chief priest and Pharisees in Matthew 21:45 are long dead now. Do they get it prior to the millennium? At the Great White Throne?

All scriptures need to harmonize, Daniel 2:44 says the kingdom is set up in the days of those kings, not the days of Moses.

Aside from that, I'll like to know : When in the first century do you think the kingdom was set up though. 30... 40... 50... 60... 100 A.D.. and what scripture do you use to show this?

The same scriptures you’re using, I just see the time of the little horn taking place during the time of Rome in the first century, the same period of time that the chief priest and Pharisees in Matthew 21 possessed the kingdom.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes that would, I’ve brought that verse up in previous posts but I still don’t know how you have harmonized it with your view.

At what point in time do the chief priest and Pharisees possess the kingdom? They obviously have to have it before it can be taken from them, and those chief priest and Pharisees in Matthew 21:45 are long dead now. Do they get it prior to the millennium? At the Great White Throne?

All scriptures need to harmonize, Daniel 2:44 says the kingdom is set up in the days of those kings, not the days of Moses.

Egypt was a world power. The first in opposition to God and his people.

The same scriptures you’re using, I just see the time of the little horn taking place during the time of Rome in the first century, the same period of time that the chief priest and Pharisees in Matthew 21 possessed the kingdom.

When was that?

 

[grafted branch]

Egypt was a world power. The first in opposition to God and his people.

I don’t disagree with that but I don’t think that’s when the kingdom in Daniel 2:44 is “set up” <6966> to arise, stand.

The statement “ the stone which the builder’s rejected” is found in multiple places. Acts 4:10-11 identifies who the builders are, they are rulers of the people and elders of Israel who Peter was talking to at that time. It also identifies Jesus Christ as the stone. Matthew 21:42-45 tells us that this cornerstone will grind the priest and Pharisees to powder.

Putting this all together we see that the kingdom both arose and was taken from the builders in the first century. I can’t give you exact dates because the Bible doesn’t give the dates but it does tell us the people who were involved and since those people are now dead we can surmise that these things happen in the past.

 

[CoreyD]

I don’t disagree with that but I don’t think that’s when the kingdom in Daniel 2:44 is “set up” <6966> to arise, stand.

The statement “ the stone which the builder’s rejected” is found in multiple places. Acts 4:10-11 identifies who the builders are, they are rulers of the people and elders of Israel who Peter was talking to at that time. It also identifies Jesus Christ as the stone. Matthew 21:42-45 tells us that this cornerstone will grind the priest and Pharisees to powder.

Putting this all together we see that the kingdom both arose and was taken from the builders in the first century. I can’t give you exact dates because the Bible doesn’t give the dates but it does tell us the people who were involved and since those people are now dead we can surmise that these things happen in the past.

You aren't trying to drag me into a debate over interpretations, are you?
I'd rather use the sword. I don;t think it can be called a sword fight though.

So where are we right now.
Right now, you are here.

It's just an illustration, so don't mind the marks on the pole. They are none.
You just ran head on into Daniel, and you wrecked. You look hurt, but I hope you are okay.

As for me, I,m okay, because I saw Daniel, and I didn't lose control. I passed smoothly.
Daniel is one of the scriptures that is fully in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

Here are a few.
Mathew 24. The signs of the last days were future. They are specific to a time period called the last days.
The last days did not begin in the first century. 2 Timothy 3:1-5
Daniel describes the "End Times" world power. Daniel 7:8
Daniel tells us at what point the kings were installed - the kingdom was set up. Daniel 7:13, 14, 27
This harmonizes with The ride of the four horsemen, where the first rider is Christ the king. His rule is followed by the red horse, that takes peace away from the earth. Revelation 6:1-7

Interestingly, we had two world wars, and the world sits, on the edge of its seat, awaiting a third.
So, right now, the way it looks to me, you seem to me arguing with the motorist driving by smoothly, because arguing with a pole doesn't look very sane.
So, I think you know you can't win.
Running into a steel pole, which you can find no fault with, spells defeat,
The only thing left to do, is admit it.

If not, the deal is, tell me where Daniel got it wrong, and we can go from there.
Sounds fair?

 

[grafted branch]

You aren't trying to drag me into a debate over interpretations, are you?

Well that’s what gets debated here, not everyone has the same interpretation but we all use the same Bible.

So where are we right now.
Right now, you are here.

It's just an illustration, so don't mind the marks on the pole. They are none.
You just ran head on into Daniel, and you wrecked. You look hurt, but I hope you are okay.

Thanks for the laugh, you’re correct I hit a pole but the pole I hit only exists in your view of Daniel, no collision in my view.

Daniel is one of the scriptures that is fully in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

So how about harmonizing with Matthew 21:42-45? I’m still waiting for your interpretation of this.

 

[CoreyD]

Well that’s what gets debated here, not everyone has the same interpretation but we all use the same Bible.

Thanks for the laugh, you’re correct I hit a pole but the pole I hit only exists in your view of Daniel, no collision in my view.

So how about harmonizing with Matthew 21:42-45? I’m still waiting for your interpretation of this.

I'm still waiting now, how many posts back, for you to tell me what I got wrong in Daniel - from Daniel.
So, you get the privilege to go first.

Show me, in Daniel Chapter 7, that Daniel did not tell us at what point in the succession of world powers, the kingdom was given to the son of man, and the Saints,