Where does our sin come from?

[GDL]

Sure, sin originated with satan. There is no question about that. The OP is about the source of our own sins. Maybe I should have titled it, "Where do our sins come from?"

That would have been clearer. You can probably edit it.

Flip Wilson would say, "The devil made me do it." But we have no one to blame but ourselves that we are sinners in need of a Savior.

See post #20 also. There's also the thanks a lot Adam & the woman issue.

Why do I bring this up? Because there are many in CF that say rihtness with God is through obedience to His laws. They don't address the fact that all their efforts to be obedient are destroyed by their own dissobedience. Some will admit they are sinners and need Christ's forgiveness (amazingly some don't), but then they go right back to performance-based righteousness even claiming forgiveness is dependent on right living.

Then there's also a bit of a seeming paradox about faith and obedience which is probably where some of these views come about, e.g. Rom4:5 then 1John3:7. There's also 1John1:9 that bases forgiveness of a Christian's sins on acknowledging them to God. So, we have the problem you're addressing, and we have the other problem that there is no performance (so to speak).

If they could see that their flesh is in adversarial opposition with God's Spirit, then maybe they can learn that their righteousness is in Christ and that the sins of their flesh are forgiven. And then they will come out from under the curse of the law. At least that's my hope.

See above.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Then there's also a bit of a seeming paradox about faith and obedience which is probably where some of these views come about, e.g. Rom4:5 then 1John3:7.

Two things stand out to me concerning the verses you referenced.

Romans 4:5-8 (NKJV)

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5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:​

​

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,​

And whose sins are covered;​

8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”​

"Righteousness apart from works" necessarily includes the forgiveness sins. I can understand why people do not want to condone other people's sins, but I don't undertsand why they would refuse to admit their own sins and refuse to believe on Him who justifies them despite their lawless deeds.

1 John 3:7-9 (NKJV)

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.​

When people reject "righteousness apart from works", they often adopt "righteousness through works". It is curious to me, though, that they typically don't adopt it completely. They typically make room for sin in the practice of righteousness (verse 7), they exclude sins from the list of sins that makes a person "of the devil" (verse 8), and they reject the idea that whoever has been born of God does not commit sin (twice in verse 9). To them, righteousness and sinfulness are relative, not obsolute. For instance, they say you are "practicing righteousness" (verse 7) if your primary way of life is obedience, if you only sin occasionally, and if you follow up your sins with repentence, confession, and re-commitment. To them, this makes you "righteous, just as He is righteous" (verse 7). So, in the end, they promote righteousness through works even though they are wholely dependendent on forgiveness of sins to see them through.

There's also 1John1:9 that bases forgiveness of a Christian's sins on acknowledging them to God. So, we have the problem you're addressing, and we have the other problem that there is no performance (so to speak).

Yes, some like to turn 1 John 1:9 into a works requirement for Christians. They want it to say that whenever a Christian commits a sin, he must acknowledge it to God before he is forgiven. They won't always go as far as to say that every unforgiven sin upon his death would lead to hell, but they don't say how those sins might be done away with.

The context of 1 John 1:9 makes its meaning clear.

1 John 1:8–10 (NKJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.​

If a person says he has no sin (verse 8), or if he says he has not sinned (verse 10), then he is self-decieved or a liar. But if a person admits he is a sinner in need of a Savior (verse 9), his sins are forgiven and he is cleansed from all unrighteousness. These verses are distinguishing between the lost and the saved.

 

[GDL]

they reject the idea that whoever has been born of God does not commit sin (twice in verse 9)

How do you explain 1John3:9 in light of 1John1?

Yes, some like to turn 1 John 1:9 into a works requirement for Christians. They want it to say that whenever a Christian commits a sin, he must acknowledge it to God before he is forgiven. They won't always go as far as to say that every unforgiven sin upon his death would lead to hell, but they don't say how those sins might be done away with.

Many like to do all kinds of things with Scripture as I think most of us know. I'm a little wary when "works" gets brought up, because of the themes of not being saved by works but being created for good works. I'll address 1John1:9 below.

The context of 1 John 1:9 makes its meaning clear.

1 John 1:8–10 (NKJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
If a person says he has no sin (verse 8), or if he says he has not sinned (verse 10), then he is self-decieved or a liar. But if a person admits he is a sinner in need of a Savior (verse 9), his sins are forgiven and he is cleansed from all unrighteousness. These verses are distinguishing between the lost and the saved.

My take:
The context is walking in fellowship with John and others and joining them in walking in fellowship with God.
1John1:5-6 in order to walk in fellowship with God and others who are walking with Him, we must walk where God is, in the light - He is light.
1John1:7 If we walk in the light where God is, and where other Christians are walking with Him, then we have fellowship with them, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

• This "if" condition contains a sense of contingency so if we're not walking in the light we're not having this fellowship and we're not being cleansed.

It's in this context that 1John1:8-10 is stated and I see it as chiastic (parallelism). So, we're not walking in the light
1John1:8 Same "if" concept: If we say have no sin, then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (What truth? About sin? About sin we're committing and denying? About the fact that we do sin (1John3:9 issue). About walking in the light? About life in Christ???)

1John1:9 Same "if" concept: If we acknowledge our sins, then He (God to whom we acknowledge) is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins (that we acknowledge) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (which John says is sin 1John5:17).​

1John1:10 same "if" concept: if we say we have not sinned, then we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us.

This is living as a Christian.
There is a life of beneficial walking in fellowship with God and being cleansed of sin, and there is a way to not be walking in fellowship with God and not being cleansed of sin.
We're going to sin.

To say we have no sin is self-deceit as you said.​

To say we have not sinned (when we have) is calling Him a liar and we not only did we sin, but we don't know what we're talking about in our self-denial.​

The central point in these verses is to live a life acknowledging/confessing sin when we sin, and growing in knowledge of what is good and bad according to God, and sinning less as we grow up spiritually.

"acknowledge" most literally means to speak the same and has the sense of being of a common mind with another/others, agreeing, and conceding that something is factual, admitting. It's either this or calling Him a liar.​

I see this as a dynamic relationship with God, the active life of coming to grips with what He's writing in our mind and on our heart, having our conscience perfected within His Great High Priesthood, learning to love to ever increasing degrees.

There is coming to Christ and there is growing in Christ walking in the light. Sins are an issue in both adventures.

I do think this says clearly that there is a situation we can find ourselves in where we must acknowledge our sins for forgiveness. It's either walking in the light with Him learning and acknowledging along the way or not agreeing with Him and finding ourselves in discipline by a perfect Father who can be quite severe. If no discipline for calling Him a liar, then we're not His sons (Heb12). Heb12:10 is a bit mind-boggling, but this is what He's raising us to share.

Sorry for not providing more verse references here.

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[biblelesson]

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:7–10)​

It seems obvious that our sin comes from the flesh. It is at war with God, is not subject to His laws, and can't be made to conform. If the Spirit of God and of Christ live in us, our bodies are dead because of sin, but our spirits are alive because of the righteousness we possess in Christ.

Very true!

Sin originated from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The fact that Adam ate from that tree, that knowledge (good and evil) corrupted man’s heart, and because Adam was the first man, all men born afterwards was corrupted. Having the knowledge of evil caused man to do evil acts.

However, If Adam had obeyed God, he would have eaten from the tree of life, where the knowledge of sin or evil does not exist. So, Adam would have only been able to do acts of good or righteousness.

This is why to save us in Christ, God first crucified the Ademic nature, the old man on the cross with Christ, and when Christ was raised from the dead and ascended to the Father, He gave us His Spirit that cannot sin, 1 John 3:9 KJV. So that we can always appear righteous before Him.

It has nothing to do with keeping laws.

 

[biblelesson]

It has nothing to do with keeping laws.

If righteousness has anything to do with keeping a law, then why did God have to crucify the Ademic nature? Romans 6:6 KJV.

It would seem that if we were able to perform acts of rightiousness of our own, then there would have been no reason to crucify the source of the problem.

Additionally, the laws put in place under the Mosiac law administered by the Levi Priest were from heaven - meaning there had to be a pattern established from heaven, Exodus 25:40 KJV, that if followed maintained the Israelites righteousness.

Without that pattern, if we think we are justified by any of those laws, we insult God, and we fool ourselves, and we remain in our sins.

If Israel had to follow a strict pattern to maintain their righteousness, and they were punished, then how can we think we will be excused when the pattern has been disannulled in Christ?


Hebrews 7:18-19 KJV
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 

[AlexB23]

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:7–10)​

It seems obvious that our sin comes from the flesh. It is at war with God, is not subject to His laws, and can't be made to conform. If the Spirit of God and of Christ live in us, our bodies are dead because of sin, but our spirits are alive because of the righteousness we possess in Christ.

Our sin came from Adam & Eve's first sin. The original sin may have tainted our DNA, or spiritual qualities, causing us to sin. However, Jesus can save us from our sins.

 

[honey badger]

Our sin came from Adam & Eve's first sin. The original sin may have tainted our DNA, or spiritual qualities, causing us to sin. However, Jesus can save us from our sins.

our flesh as in our five senses/ five husbands affords us a sixth as husband/perception not our own ... it is this perception of self that is the man of sin/son of perdition/abomination that makes desolate etc

 

[honey badger]

Where does war come from ....
a sense of lack .... (they want and do not have , so they go to war to get it)

a sense of lack whereby all things become of gain ... cause and a/effect ...

 

[AlexB23]

our flesh as in our five senses/ five husbands affords us a sixth as husband/perception not our own ... it is this perception of self that is the man of sin/son of perdition/abomination that makes desolate etc

What do you mean by husbands? Like our vices?

 

[honey badger]

What do you mean by husbands? Like our vices?

five gifts/senses ... sight,hearing,smelling,tasting and touching which afford us a sixth ...

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Very true!

Sin originated from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The fact that Adam ate from that tree, that knowledge (good and evil) corrupted man’s heart, and because Adam was the first man, all men born afterwards was corrupted. Having the knowledge of evil caused man to do evil acts.

However, If Adam had obeyed God, he would have eaten from the tree of life, where the knowledge of sin or evil does not exist. So, Adam would have only been able to do acts of good or righteousness.

This is why to save us in Christ, God first crucified the Ademic nature, the old man on the cross with Christ, and when Christ was raised from the dead and ascended to the Father, He gave us His Spirit that cannot sin, 1 John 3:9 KJV. So that we can always appear righteous before Him.

It has nothing to do with keeping laws.

I would only change "appear" to "be", since our righteousness in Christ is not only the appearance of righteousness but true righteousness and holiness:

We are a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). The new man is created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph 4:24). Our lives are hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3). We have become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:17). We are partakers of the Divine Nature (2 Peter 1:4).

 

[Aaron112]

Our sin came from Adam & Eve's first sin. The original sin may have tainted our DNA, or spiritual qualities, causing us to sin. However, Jesus can save us from our sins.

fwiw, I've never seen "dna" used ever, in any good way. There's no indication our "dna" changed ever, or that it ever mattered from Creation of man up until this last century when "sinful men" started promoting "dna", not for good purposes you see?

 

[AlexB23]

five gifts/senses ... sight,hearing,smelling,tasting and touching which afford us a sixth ...

Well, we only have 5 senses, though some folks may say intuition could be a 6th sense, potentially given to us by God.

 

[AlexB23]

fwiw, I've never seen "dna" used ever, in any good way. There's no indication our "dna" changed ever, or that it ever mattered from Creation of man up until this last century when "sinful men" started promoting "dna", not for good purposes you see?

That is also true. In 2003, scientists collected the whole human genome, and in subsequent years have analyzed it. There is "junk" DNA that no one knows the purpose for, while most DNA serves a purpose. But overall, the main things that could mess up our DNA (mutations) are toxic chemicals and radiation. So, we can not say for certain if when Adam & Eve sinned, that a hidden mutation spread in our DNA. So, the next explanation must be a spiritual lineage that must have been poisoned by the original sin. But, Jesus can clear us of our sins if we repent.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

How do you explain 1John3:9 in light of 1John1?

Much of 1 John (including 1 John 3:9 and surrounding verses) deals with the the new nature created by God giving birth to us as His Children. As I said in my reply to BibleLesson above, our righteousness is true righteousness and holiness:

We are a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). The new man is created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph 4:24). Our lives are hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3). We have become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:17). We are partakers of the Divine Nature (2 Peter 1:4).

I'm a little wary when "works" gets brought up, because of the themes of not being saved by works but being created for good works.

God made us new creatures, with true righteousness and holiness. As a result, we love God, we love the things of God, we love His children in whom He lives, and we love the people of the world and desire for them to be saved. Every other good thing also comes from inside our new hearts where Jesus is. The call to godly living is a call to live out the new lives we have in Christ, walking in lock step with Him. It is not a call to do good works for the sake of doing good works.

I'll address 1John1:9 below.

My take:
The context is walking in fellowship with John and others and joining them in walking in fellowship with God.
1John1:5-6 in order to walk in fellowship with God and others who are walking with Him, we must walk where God is, in the light - He is light.
1John1:7 If we walk in the light where God is, and where other Christians are walking with Him, then we have fellowship with them, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

• This "if" condition contains a sense of contingency so if we're not walking in the light we're not having this fellowship and we're not being cleansed.

It's in this context that 1John1:8-10 is stated and I see it as chiastic (parallelism). So, we're not walking in the light
1John1:8 Same "if" concept: If we say have no sin, then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (What truth? About sin? About sin we're committing and denying? About the fact that we do sin (1John3:9 issue). About walking in the light? About life in Christ???)

1John1:9 Same "if" concept: If we acknowledge our sins, then He (God to whom we acknowledge) is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins (that we acknowledge) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (which John says is sin 1John5:17).​

1John1:10 same "if" concept: if we say we have not sinned, then we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us.

This is living as a Christian.
There is a life of beneficial walking in fellowship with God and being cleansed of sin, and there is a way to not be walking in fellowship with God and not being cleansed of sin.
We're going to sin.

To say we have no sin is self-deceit as you said.​

To say we have not sinned (when we have) is calling Him a liar and we not only did we sin, but we don't know what we're talking about in our self-denial.​

The central point in these verses is to live a life acknowledging/confessing sin when we sin, and growing in knowledge of what is good and bad according to God, and sinning less as we grow up spiritually.

"acknowledge" most literally means to speak the same and has the sense of being of a common mind with another/others, agreeing, and conceding that something is factual, admitting. It's either this or calling Him a liar.​

I see this as a dynamic relationship with God, the active life of coming to grips with what He's writing in our mind and on our heart, having our conscience perfected within His Great High Priesthood, learning to love to ever increasing degrees.

There is coming to Christ and there is growing in Christ walking in the light. Sins are an issue in both adventures.

I do think this says clearly that there is a situation we can find ourselves in where we must acknowledge our sins for forgiveness. It's either walking in the light with Him learning and acknowledging along the way or not agreeing with Him and finding ourselves in discipline by a perfect Father who can be quite severe. If no discipline for calling Him a liar, then we're not His sons (Heb12). Heb12:10 is a bit mind-boggling, but this is what He's raising us to share.

Sorry for not providing more verse references here.

This deserves a separate thread. Certainly, God does not withhold forgiveness while He is correcting His children.

 

[Aaron112]

That is also true. In 2003, scientists collected the whole human genome, and in subsequent years have analyzed it. There is "junk" DNA that no one knows the purpose for, while most DNA serves a purpose.

The use of the subject of dna , the purpose of it and knowledge (false knowledge) of it in the world, is to confuse the truth, to hide the truth,
not to help find the truth.

 

[AlexB23]

The use of the subject of dna , the purpose of it and knowledge (false knowledge) of it in the world, is to confuse the truth, to hide the truth,
not to help find the truth.

However, DNA was proven to exist back in 1953. Can't science and religion coexist?

 

[Aaron112]

However, DNA was proven to exist back in 1953. Can't science and religion coexist?

Yes, they do coexist, and both are used deceptively , towards the destruction of faith, avoiding truth, avoiding repentance of sin.

fwiw, with no followup of these links,
dna might be likened to these other things "of the world" "apart from Christ" >>>

1. Azazel - Wikipedia​

   The Book of Enoch 8:1-3a reads, "And Azazel taught men to make swords and knives and shields and breastplates; and made known to them the metals [of the earth] and the art of working them; and bracelets and ornaments; and the use of antimony and the beautifying of the eyelids; and all kinds of costly stones and all colouring tinctures ...
2. https://www.funtrivia.com › askft › Question77039.html
   

   Who was the 'angel' responsible for teaching mankind how to make ...​

   And Azazel taught men to make swords and knives and shields and breastplates; and made known to them the metals [of the earth] and the art of working them; and bracelets and ornaments; and the use of antimony and the beautifying of the eyelids; and all kinds of costly stones and all colouring tinctures.

 

[AlexB23]

Yes, they do coexist, and both are used deceptively , towards the destruction of faith, avoiding truth, avoiding repentance of sin.

fwiw, with no followup of these links,
dna might be likened to these other things "of the world" "apart from Christ" >>>

1. Azazel - Wikipedia​

   The Book of Enoch 8:1-3a reads, "And Azazel taught men to make swords and knives and shields and breastplates; and made known to them the metals [of the earth] and the art of working them; and bracelets and ornaments; and the use of antimony and the beautifying of the eyelids; and all kinds of costly stones and all colouring tinctures ...
2. https://www.funtrivia.com › askft › Question77039.html
   

   Who was the 'angel' responsible for teaching mankind how to make ...​

   And Azazel taught men to make swords and knives and shields and breastplates; and made known to them the metals [of the earth] and the art of working them; and bracelets and ornaments; and the use of antimony and the beautifying of the eyelids; and all kinds of costly stones and all colouring tinctures.

I am not as familiar with Enoch, but have heard about the heavenly armor.

 

[Aaron112]

I am not as familiar with Enoch, but have heard about the heavenly armor.

I've never quoted Enoch before, and have not read the supposed writings of Enoch...
I've seen a lot of false , totally false, doctrines and myths by people quoting Enoch in fact... so I avoid it ...

Just on internet search I was looking for the reference to how men learned to form steel into weapons....