What, if anything, is wrong with this picture?

[chevyontheriver]

I would sure hope so! The person I am talking about is Eastern Orthodox. He justifies this by saying he only "serves" God, but as @Valletta points, out, there are different ways the way worship is talked about. He justifies it by texts in the OT that show that a person worshiped a king.

I would hope that you and I, if we ran into this person, would offer him correction. I know I would.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

As per the attachment, the question was asked,

"Is Mary the Mother of God?

A: Yes.
B: No."

My answer:

"Wonderful woman. To be admired, not worshipped."

Then someone else chimes in,

"You possibly are a Nestorian heretic."

What are your thoughts on this?

The problem is that this statement sounds semantically amphibolous.

I can see how, from one angle, it is a "yes" and from another angle, a "no."

 

[chevyontheriver]

As per the attachment, the question was asked,

"Is Mary the Mother of God?

A: Yes.
B: No."

My answer:

"Wonderful woman. To be admired, not worshipped."

Then someone else chimes in,

"You possibly are a Nestorian heretic."

What are your thoughts on this?

Hey, can we agree to shut this thread down at about 100 posts unless some actually new ground is being covered? Just askin'. It's your thread.

 

[trophy33]

Your accusation is false.--the people were not praying to statues. Practicing Catholics pray a lot, like Jesus did. We have kneelers at many different places, and visuals to constantly remind us of God. You might see kneelers by crucifixes and Nativity scenes and statues of saints and tombs and paintings of Jesus, all an opportunity to pray. We don't worship the painting of Jesus, the canvas and colors, we take the opportunity to pray to Jesus. One of the things many Christians unfortunately dropped at the reformation, along with seven books of the Bible, was praying to those in Heaven to pray for us and praying for those who have departed this earth. Another example, if you go to St. Peter's at the Vatican, at one level above where St. Peter was buried, there are many kneelers of the tombs of popes. We can pray for a particular pope, that hardly means we are bowing down to worship his bones or photograph. Catholic realize that God hears all of our prayers. I think more time praying and less time criticizing how others pray, less time accusing others, would be beneficial to everyone.

I agree with CARM on this. Many Catholics do what seems to constitute worship and idolatry.

They do not pray for Mary, they pray to Mary. They think Mary hears all their prayers. They give her various titles that mirror titles given to God (Most Holy, Our Lady, Queen of Heaven) calling her our Mother etc.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I agree with carm on this. Many catholics do everything that constitutes worship and idolatry, you just try to explain it out.

I like it how you tell me I worship Mary because CARM tells you I do. Never mind I say I don't. What do I know about who I do or don't worship, being a self-deluded Catholic and all?

 

[trophy33]

I like it how you tell me I worship Mary because CARM tells you I do. Never mind I say I don't. What do I know about who I do or don't worship, being a self-deluded Catholic and all?

Did I or carm say something about you or to you?

 

[Valletta]

I agree with carm on this. Many catholics do everything that constitutes worship and idolatry, you just try to explain it out.

They do not pray for Mary, they pray to Mary. They think Mary hears all their prayers. They give her various titles that mirror titles given to God (Most Holy, Our Lady, Queen of Heaven) calling her our Mother etc.

Of course those in Heaven can hear our prayers. In Psalm 103 we address the angels in Heaven! Jews before the time of Jesus both prayed for the dead and addressed prayers to those in Heaven, as in the Psalm. Now these are two things many Protestant denominations dropped due to the reformation, and many have adopted Bible-only. I don't accuse Protestants of worshiping the Bible or of idolatry. We should respect each other beliefs. Every mother of the king in the Davidic kingdom since the reign of Solomon has received the title of queen. Why would you deny this to Mary? You can see in Revelation that Mary wears a crown. She is depicted as standing on the moon, the moon reflects the light of the sun. The queen makes requests of the king. The old prefigures the new, Mary makes requests of Jesus on our behalf. What do you think the whole point was in the Davidic kingdom of having a queen mother make requests was, that is, how do you think it pointed to the new? Jesus gave Mary to us all as our spiritual mother while he was on the cross.

 

[trophy33]

Of course those in Heaven can hear our prayers. In Psalm 103 we address the angels in Heaven! Jews before the time of Jesus both prayed for the dead and addressed prayers to those in Heaven, as in the Psalm. Now these are two things many Protestant denominations dropped due to the reformation, and many have adopted Bible-only. I don't accuse Protestants of worshiping the Bible or of idolatry. We should respect each other beliefs. Every mother of the king in the Davidic kingdom since the reign of Solomon has received the title of queen. Why would you deny this to Mary? You can see in Revelation that Mary wears a crown. She is depicted as standing on the moon, the moon reflects the light of the sun. The queen makes requests of the king. The old prefigures the new, Mary makes requests of Jesus on our behalf. What do you think the whole point was in the Davidic kingdom of having a queen mother make requests was, that is, how do you think it pointed to the new? Jesus gave Mary to us all as our spiritual mother while he was on the cross.

I am not interested in discussing why catholics decided to worship Mary. What I am saying is that many catholics worship Mary.

 

[Valletta]

I am not interested in discussing why catholics decided to worship Mary. What I am saying is that many catholics worship Mary.

False. Please quite making accusations against others.

 

[trophy33]

False. Please quite making accusations against others.

You have no authority to command me anything. My opinion is on the same level as yours. And you are no judge of what is true or false, here.

 

[eleos1954]

As per the attachment, the question was asked,

"Is Mary the Mother of God?

A: Yes.
B: No."

My answer:

"Wonderful woman. To be admired, not worshipped."

Then someone else chimes in,

"You possibly are a Nestorian heretic."

What are your thoughts on this?

Mary was the mother of Jesus for his earthly incarnation, but she's not the Mother of God

 

[Valletta]

You have no authority to command me anything. My opinion is on the same level as yours. And you are no judge of what is true or false, here.

James 4:11-12 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor? RSVCE

 

[Fervent]

I agree with carm on this. Many catholics do everything that constitutes worship and idolatry, you just try to explain it out.

They do not pray for Mary, they pray to Mary. They think Mary hears all their prayers. They give her various titles that mirror titles given to God (Most Holy, Our Lady, Queen of Heaven) calling her our Mother etc.

I can see both sides of this, since there seems to be both a danger of individuals who do not fully understand the nuances of Catholic Marian dogma mistakenly worshiping Mary in ignorance. But there is an equal danger in the paucity reflected in protestant criticisms of Marian veneration. Denying Mary a special status within the body of Christ often effectively leads to a denial of the reality of the incarnation. Catholics and Orthodox pray to saints because the saints are still alive in Christ, but those who criticize the practice deny that reality and call them dead. The charge of idolatry is more often a boogie man based on a caricature of Catholic belief and practice, rather than a reflection of the reality of it.

 

[Valletta]

I can see both sides of this, since there seems to be both a danger of individuals who do not fully understand the nuances of Catholic Marian dogma mistakenly worshiping Mary in ignorance. But there is an equal danger in the paucity reflected in protestant criticisms of Marian veneration. Denying Mary a special status within the body of Christ often effectively leads to a denial of the reality of the incarnation. Catholics and Orthodox pray to saints because the saints are still alive in Christ, but those who criticize the practice deny that reality and call them dead. The charge of idolatry is more often a boogie man based on a caricature of Catholic belief and practice, rather than a reflection of the reality of it.

The Catholic Church warns all about idolatry:
Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1

 

[Fervent]

The Catholic Church warns all about idolatry:
Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1

The issue isn't with what is written in Catholic catechisms, but how worshippers who are not well catechised could mistake the veneration of Mary based on her relationship with Christ as veneration/worship of Mary for her own merits as a creature. I am aware that Catholic dogma denounces idol worship and agree that followed properly Catholic practice does not amount to idolatry. Yet that does not mean that it is not common for lay worshippers to not be aware of the nuances in this regard and simply continue to practice their former idolatry in a Catholic dressing.

 

[Servus]

I think you need a bit of a warning regarding CARM.org. Please don't take anything they have to say seriously.

Why not? Isn't Matt Slick a lot like John MacArthur? Oh wait... never mind.

 

[Servus]

As per the attachment, the question was asked,

"Is Mary the Mother of God"?

Yes.

Like with all things pertaining to Christ, it's important to understand exactly what that means.

 

[Servus]

False. Carm is quite an outrageous anti-Catholic site. As to "worship," one of the problems is that there are multiple meanings of the word and the meaning changes over time. Some may worship an athlete, or call a judge "Your worship" or "Your honor." So one can have great admiration and respect for another in that sense. But the worship for God is for God alone, Catholics are not to give that kind of worship to athletes or movie stars or Mary or the rest of the saints.

I'd say CARM protests against certain aspects of Catholic dogma. But considering it's a Protest-ant organization, that should be expected.

 

[trophy33]

James 4:11-12 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor? RSVCE

You adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore, whoever chooses to be a friend of the world renders himself an enemy of God!
James 4:4

The same James, just few verses above.

 

[trophy33]

Denying Mary a special status within the body of Christ often effectively leads to a denial of the reality of the incarnation.

Not really. Protestants deny a special status of Mary and it did not lead to any protestant denial of the incarnation. This fear that we must create a kind of pantheon of saints and of their stories around Christ to keep the faith in Christ, is neither biblical nor a good idea. Its more similar to Phariseism, they practiced a similar way of life - they feared breaking the Mosaic Law, so created a wall of other commandments and rules around it.

Catholics and Orthodox pray to saints because the saints are still alive in Christ, but those who criticize the practice deny that reality and call them dead.

Even when you are alive here and now, I will not pray to you, but only to God. Do you propose you will get some portion of God's job and power (for example omnipresence) after your death so that I should pray to you, then, instead of to God?

Jesus taught us clearly how to pray - "Our Father, ...". Prayers to people (or angels or whomever and whatever else) are against what He taught and apostles practiced.

The charge of idolatry is more often a boogie man based on a caricature of Catholic belief and practice, rather than a reflection of the reality of it.

A visit or at least watching some documentaries about catholics in South America, for example, can reveal what they really do in practice. But the idolatry is not so uncommon among catholics even in more developed countries.