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"Post Truth"

stevevw

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yes, but what that means to the person and how to live it out varies so much one can almost say there is no commonality. We see that right here on the forum.
I am not sure what you mean. I am talking about how Religious belief and in particular Christianity places the meaning of life on something that transcends worldly ideas such as money and material possessions. That cannot vary between Christians. If you don't serve God you serve money. Theres no inbetween.

So a Christian who persues the things of this world over God is not a Christian with a varied view on Christianity. They are not a Christian at all by the fact they serve money and not God. Its pretty clear.

Anyway the original point doesn't even require religion. My point was that people and especially young people have lost the value of sacrifice, of duty. Of doing things when they don't feel like doing things and doing things when there is nothing in it for them.

Today its more about feelings. Satifying feelings, self realization and fullfillment. Pleasure, feeling good as opposed to feeling pain, or uncomfortability. If it feels good then its morally good and if it feels bad its morally bad.

So really a non religious person can adhere to the traditional values of self sacrific and duty. Its a transcendent principle that is found in religion especially Christianity. But its not exclusive to Christians.

This relates to the OP of Post Truth and how todays truth is self truth which is about ones feelings and experiences being the most important thing and is therefore more temporal than transcendent.
 
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FireDragon76

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But the different versions (denominations) all still believe in the same transcendent truth that Christ is the Wat, Truth and Life. That He is the only way to a life of meaning. This basic principle that spiritual fullfillment brings true happiness and peace rather than the treasures of this world are much the same for all religions. They all appeal to some higher state of being beyond money and material possessions or the things of this world.

Isn't ultimate concern something transcendent. Ultimate meaning true happiness. Even secularists can admit that money can't buy love or true happiness. That is a transcedent concept.

Transcendent in a spacial sense, one removed from ordinary life? No. There are many religions that don't have that notion of transcendence. Taoism, Confucianism, and Shinto come to mind.

I am sure even those religions without a substance dualist metaphysics still appeal to a non material metaphysics as the true source of meaning for life. If they didn't then we could hardly call them a theistic religion and more secular ideology. Even non religious ideas about consciousness beyond the physical brain are appealing to some transcedent basis for meaning of life.

Not all religions are theistic, in the sense of being about a creator being. They are still considered religions, and do recognizably religious things.
 
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FireDragon76

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yes, but what that means to the person and how to live it out varies so much one can almost say there is no commonality. We see that right here on the forum.

Yes, exactly. What did Fred Rogers and Fred Phelps have in common, after all? Both were Christians, but with radically different notions of what that meant.
 
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stevevw

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Transcendent in a spacial sense, one removed from ordinary life? No. There are many religions that don't have that notion of transcendence. Taoism, Confucianism, and Shinto come to mind.
Even these beliefs have transcedent aspects in that they appeal to transcedent ideas such as meditation, astrology, mysticism, spirituality ect.

The Dao (Chinese: “way” or “road”) is both transcendent and immanent, both spiritual and material.
The Tao is the ultimate reality and the ultimate truth of the cosmos; as such, it is transcendent in the sense that it is not a part of the physical world. It is believed that Tao is the origin of everything that exists as well as the basis for all things.

Confucian Theology: Three Models
There are at least three models of serious god-talks in the Confucian tradition: (i) heaven is discussed in the Confucian classics of Book of Documents, Books of Poetry, and Analects as something transcendent of the world, similar to Christian God in crucial aspects;
Not all religions are theistic, in the sense of being about a creator being. They are still considered religions, and do recognizably religious things.
Yes there are the Polytheistic religions but they still appeal to more transcedent meanings of life like all religions.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I can't help but wonder what percentage of people will believe what the want to believe in spite of being proven wrong and has it always been that way. In other words, is "post truth" really something new or what?
 
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FireDragon76

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Even these beliefs have transcedent aspects in that they appeal to transcedent ideas such as meditation, astrology, mysticism, spirituality ect.

How exactly is meditation dealing with the "transcendent"? This sounds like something somebody would say who has never seriously engaged in a mindfulness-based practice. If anything, mindfulness is more about becoming aware of what is immanent within ones experience.

The Dao (Chinese: “way” or “road”) is both transcendent and immanent, both spiritual and material.

Chinese religion doesn't distinguish between the spiritual and material in that manner. Those are Cartesian dualisms.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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How exactly is meditation dealing with the "transcendent"?
Good question. Meditation can be strictly mental and physical.
For me that aspect is only a threshold to the spiritual...or at least what I believe to be the spiritual.

When I hear "post truth" I think more about political fact denial or propaganda.
 
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stevevw

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How exactly is meditation dealing with the "transcendent"? This sounds like something somebody would say who has never seriously engaged in a mindfulness-based practice. If anything, mindfulness is more about becoming aware of what is immanent within ones experience.
Transcendental meditation is the main form of meditation. In some ways meditation is transcendent by nature in that even focusing on Mindfullness is transcedent in that the Mind itself is a Transcedent phenomena. We cannot reduce the Mind to things, physical processes. Mind is fundementally consciousness and consciousness transcends the material world.

According to the Transcendental Meditation movement, it is a non-religious method that promotes relaxed awareness, stress relief, self-development, and higher states of consciousness.

Transcendent states are ubiquitous within cultures and religions throughout human history. Spiritual practices such as meditation evoke experiences of heightened awareness and interconnectivity commonly associated with transcendence.
Chinese religion doesn't distinguish between the spiritual and material in that manner. Those are Cartesian dualisms.
But it must determine what is most fundemental. It either is material or spiritual (something transcedent). Most religious type beliefs or even new age beliefs about nature tend to invoke reality as fundementallt transcedent of the material world. This may be done by attributing spiritual like qualities to nature, like mother nature, or with crystals healing power ect.

I would have imagines most Eastern beliefs invoked some spiritual aspect because they appeal to something beyond purely material things such as a higher state of mind, a higher state of being, one with the universe and nature ect. If everything is limited to the material, particle matter then no one could hardly evoke qualities such as relaxation, peace of mind, oneness with the world based on a purely material conception of reality.

Relaxation, peace and oneness are transcendent. A material thing cannot experience peace or relax and be at one.
 
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FireDragon76

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Good question. Meditation can be strictly mental and physical.
For me that aspect is only a threshold to the spiritual...or at least what I believe to be the spiritual.

I was thinking more of the totality of a tradition like Zen, which is rooted in Buddhist philosophy, including the Madyamika or "Middle Way" school of Mahayana Buddhism, which asserts that ultimate reality is beyond dualisms like transcendence and immanence. Nevertheless, the tradition as a whole has alot to say about the importance of immanence.

And, as a Catholic Christian, I am sure you can appreciate, with St. Francis' feast day coming up, there is room in the Christian tradition for this emphasis on immanence as well.

When I hear "post truth" I think more about political fact denial or propaganda.

That has alot to do with the rise of neofascism, which has always placed aesthetics above questions of truth.

Transcendental meditation is the main form of meditation.

"Transcendental meditation" was a branding of a particular form of Hindu yoga, it hardly represents Eastern meditative traditions in general.

In some ways meditation is transcendent by nature in that even focusing on Mindfullness is transcedent in that the Mind itself is a Transcedent phenomena.

What I said earlier about Madyamika philosophy would apply here. Trying to meditate to be some place else doesn't fit with the spirit of Zen. That's daydreaming or fantasy, not Zen.

We cannot reduce the Mind to things, physical processes. Mind is fundementally consciousness and consciousness transcends the material world.

What you describe sounds more like Cartesian dualism.

But it must determine what is most fundemental. It either is material or spiritual (something transcedent). Most religious type beliefs or even new age beliefs about nature tend to invoke reality as fundementallt transcedent of the material world. This may be done by attributing spiritual like qualities to nature, like mother nature, or with crystals healing power ect.

Again, reality being "fundamentally transcendent" is a misleading misrepresentation of many of those perspectives, especially Buddhism or Hinduism, but also including Christianity (both the Orthodox and Lutheran traditions, for instance, have a strong tradition of divine immanence).
 
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stevevw

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I was thinking more of the totality of a tradition like Zen, which is rooted in Buddhist philosophy, including the Madyamika or "Middle Way" school of Mahayana Buddhism, which asserts that ultimate reality is beyond dualisms like transcendence and immanence. Nevertheless, the tradition as a whole has alot to say about the importance of immanence.

And, as a Catholic Christian, I am sure you can appreciate, with St. Francis' feast day coming up, there is room in the Christian tradition for this emphasis on immanence as well.



That has alot to do with the rise of neofascism, which has always placed aesthetics above questions of truth.



"Transcendental meditation" was a branding of a particular form of Hindu yoga, it hardly represents Eastern meditative traditions in general.



What I said earlier about Madyamika philosophy would apply here. Trying to meditate to be some place else doesn't fit with the spirit of Zen. That's daydreaming or fantasy, not Zen.



What you describe sounds more like Cartesian dualism.



Again, reality being "fundamentally transcendent" is a misleading misrepresentation of many of those perspectives, especially Buddhism or Hinduism, but also including Christianity (both the Orthodox and Lutheran traditions, for instance, have a strong tradition of divine immanence).
Ok without getting in the definitions of religion my point was that all these beliefs seem to focus on more transcendent ideas about what brings true happiness, peace and meaning to life.

Whereas worldly ideas promoted by secular society are about external looks, material wealth, individual fullfillment of desires to make one happy these beliefs focus on the non exterior measures of happiness like whats on the inside and not the outside, realtionships with others and nature, treating others and nature respectfully and not using it as an ends .
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Again, reality being "fundamentally transcendent" is a misleading misrepresentation of many of those perspectives, especially Buddhism or Hinduism, but also including Christianity (both the Orthodox and Lutheran traditions, for instance, have a strong tradition of divine immanence).
I love this transcendence/immanence subject. I think realty id "fundamentally" both. the thing is that it is we, our consciousness, our awareness that is fixated mostly in the immanent. We we speak of meditation or better yet, contemplation we are talking about expanding or shifting awareness into the transcendent. By "we" I mean people who think like me across religions.
 
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FireDragon76

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Ok without getting in the definitions of religion my point was that all these beliefs seem to focus on more transcendent ideas about what brings true happiness, peace and meaning to life.

That's a fairer way to put it.

Whereas worldly ideas promoted by secular society are about external looks, material wealth, individual fullfillment of desires to make one happy these beliefs focus on the non exterior measures of happiness like whats on the inside and not the outside, realtionships with others and nature, treating others and nature respectfully and not using it as an ends .

Some of that was actually influenced by Protestantism itself: the concept of secularity didn't emerge in a vacuum.
 
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stevevw

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That's a fairer way to put it.
Thats what I more or less said originally when discussing the difference in what constitutes truth. That modern secular conceptions of truth are about looks, material status, job, career, individual success, celebrity status ect. More about feelings, being self fullfilled, experiencing pleasure as opposed to pain.

Whereas the past truths perhaps the more traditional ones were about commitment, duty and service, longer term qualities that did not give an immediate payoff or benefit even putting others before self. Less about short term feelings, more about resilence and the more sustainable rewards of hard work and sacrifice.
Some of that was actually influenced by Protestantism itself: the concept of secularity didn't emerge in a vacuum.
I am not sure what you mean "secularity didn't emerge in a vacuum". If you mean it was an evolution of a more religious society then yes. But this was brough on by a growing seperation of church and state and Enlightenment.

I think with that seperation a space was created for secular thought, rationalisations and opened up into many philosophical ideas about morality, truth beyond the church.

Which has led to todays secular ideologies which have sort of replaced the church doctrine with a secular one. So its been a gradual evolution for church to secular or non church dictated beliefs about what is truth. But in reality it has undermined truth and there is no truth today.
 
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FireDragon76

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Thats what I more or less said originally when discussing the difference in what constitutes truth. That modern secular conceptions of truth are about looks, material status, job, career, individual success, celebrity status ect. More about feelings, being self fullfilled, experiencing pleasure as opposed to pain.

Whereas the past truths perhaps the more traditional ones were about commitment, duty and service, longer term qualities that did not give an immediate payoff or benefit even putting others before self. Less about short term feelings, more about resilence and the more sustainable rewards of hard work and sacrifice.

I am not sure what you mean "secularity didn't emerge in a vacuum". If you mean it was an evolution of a more religious society then yes. But this was brough on by a growing seperation of church and state and Enlightenment.

Crass materialism was always waiting in the wing ever since mass culture heard Luther and Calvin's message to be "make a better pair of shoes, and more of them". In the modern era, when many young people are post-materialists and increasingly ecological aware, religion has little to offer spiritually as a result, so many turn to other things to seek meaning in their lives. Once you get beyond shallow moralism and support for rapacious capitalism and authoritarian demagogues, what exactly is left in terms of American Protestant religion?


Which has led to todays secular ideologies which have sort of replaced the church doctrine with a secular one. So its been a gradual evolution for church to secular or non church dictated beliefs about what is truth. But in reality it has undermined truth and there is no truth today.

I don't think it's so dire. Young people are interested in truth as much as ever, but they aren't willing to accept traditional just-so accounts of it based on an appeal to authority.
 
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stevevw

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Crass materialism was always waiting in the wing ever since mass culture heard Luther and Calvin's message to be "make a better pair of shoes, and more of them".
I am not sure that was a call to live materialistically. Rather being practical in feeding and clothing the poor. The tech was emerging so why not use it for good. Thats the difference. Material stuff is not bad in itself but rather its making it the most important, the god that crosses the line. Though I can see how a glut of material stuff into society would temp the best of us. Still its a constant battle.
In the modern era, when many young people are post-materialists and increasingly ecological aware,
It would be hard to be a post materialist in a society that is saturated in materialism and guaged so much on the senses. We are so entangled in tech that one wonders if we are still flesh and blood. Go back 50 years and young people had very little, maybe a bike and a radio. There was not much else to do but discover the non material aspects of life.

Young people may be more ecologically minded but I don't think they live it. Compared to years ago they have much more and their footprint is much bigger. We can't help it as that is where life is at having to depend so much on things. That is why some go off grid.

But what is noticable with young people today is they are the most unhappy and distressed generation for some reason. Maybe expectations are too high. Many lack resilence in coping with life emotionally. I think many have been cotton wooled over recent years.

I think its because society has focused on materialism, rejecting God and spirituality. Now its all about social media status, celebrity, pleasure experiences, what will fullfill my needs and wants. We have more access to stuff to give us a good life and yet more and more people are less happy and ;ack meaning.
religion has little to offer spiritually as a result, so many turn to other things to seek meaning in their lives. Once you get beyond shallow moralism and support for rapacious capitalism and authoritarian demagogues, what exactly is left in terms of American Protestant religion?
In my country there was little Protestant religion yet we still felt the same, that there was a spiritual aspect to life that was more important than the things of this world. Though we prospered as a nation the principle of working hard, duty, sacrifice was there and was driven by faith. Faith in the idea that spirituality mattered more than the flesh.
I don't think it's so dire. Young people are interested in truth as much as ever, but they aren't willing to accept traditional just-so accounts of it based on an appeal to authority.
I think society as a whole is more POstmodernist so young people would not even realize they were influenced compared to 50 years ago. There is not truth in a postmodernist society and truth is what you make it, what is experienced or felt. That is why we see many even question science.

Some of the traditional ideas and principles are not just-so acounts but long developed truths wrought through experience. Lessons or morals learn from doing it the wrong way. Then applying these truths and finding they work in making a better society.

But as with most things today academics began to question everything, wanting to tear it down for the sake of something new. I think this is part of why society is now is conflict and unhappy. We have lost what is real and true and are not sure anymore. That causes people to go on the defensive and become more tribal.
 
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FireDragon76

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Young people may be more ecologically minded but I don't think they live it. Compared to years ago they have much more and their footprint is much bigger. We can't help it as that is where life is at having to depend so much on things. That is why some go off grid.

This reminds me of the "skip the avocado toast" comment by a certain Australian billionaire a few years ago. Young people in the US, Britain, and Australia have far less real wealth than the parents and grandparents, for the most part. A young person today in many cities would have to work hundreds of years just to afford buying a small house near where they live.

There's a reason Millenials and Gen Z have made the canning jar their choice of glassware, their minimalism is being shaped by their material circumstances.

But what is noticable with young people today is they are the most unhappy and distressed generation for some reason. Maybe expectations are too high. Many lack resilence in coping with life emotionally. I think many have been cotton wooled over recent years.

I'd be unhappy too if I were told by a clueless billionaire that if I gave up my avocado toast, I could afford a home.

Lack of spirituality isn't the major reason young people deal with unhappiness. They deal with unhappiness primarily because of a cruel neoliberal economic order they live under, and which has seized control of most institutions in our societies, an order that many Christians in the US and Britain championed.
 
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stevevw

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This reminds me of the "skip the avocado toast" comment by a certain Australian billionaire a few years ago. Young people in the US, Britain, and Australia have far less real wealth than the parents and grandparents, for the most part. A young person today in many cities would have to work hundreds of years just to afford buying a small house near where they live.
I thinks its the way capitalist societies seem to unravel because the focus is on things, houses, cars and mod coms and as we seen in the 80's it becomes a form of greed. That generation accumulated things and now those things especially real estate has become a luxury for a growing number of new generations.
There's a reason Millenials and Gen Z have made the canning jar their choice of glassware, their minimalism is being shaped by their material circumstances.
Yes but that is really a reinventing of an age old idea of minimalism. There is a long history of conservation and preservation. The idea of repurposing jars has been around for a long time such as for fruits and jams or even moonshine lol. I guess they had little choice that was just how life was. people sewed and repaired their own cloths, grew their own vegies and had to make ends do.

I guess because many just cannot afford to live in todays economy they are finding other ways to get by. I agree there has been an overdose of consumerism and now we are beginning to see how this is a never ending cycle of a temporary existence that never gets anywhere.

But I also think this is a return to a simpler way of life we have abandoned and are just rediscovering this in a new way. A time when family and community came first and those who had shared with those who were without. But I also suspect that the power of money and things hasn't run its course and in fact may be spreading as with globalization and big corps spreading the Western ideal to 3rd world nations.

We seem to be stuck on a vicious cycle and the only way out is to escape that cycle which a growing number are doing with communes, co-ops, off grid lifestyle. Now that houses are so expensive what other choice is there but to think outside the the very box that causes the problem.
I'd be unhappy too if I were told by a clueless billionaire that if I gave up my avocado toast, I could afford a home.
Yes its out of touch with todays reality. Theres the question of whether a rich person has inherited their wealth. But for many it came through hard work and sacrifice to be able to pass on their wealth. So perhaps the rich are speaking of how they began. But that doesn't help the majority who will never be rich many through no fault of their own. Or who just don't want to live their lives based on money.

Perhaps that is the problem that the idea of being rich, getting that well paying job, getting that house and creating a nest egg is the meaning of life.
Lack of spirituality isn't the major reason young people deal with unhappiness. They deal with unhappiness primarily because of a cruel neoliberal economic order they live under, and which has seized control of most institutions in our societies, an order that many Christians in the US and Britain championed.
Yet many young people live the benefit of those economics with the tech and standard of life they live today. Maybe that is what they are objecting too. But of so then they should not live as neoliberals live and create a new way. That has been the case for all generations.

The idea of enterprise, self support came from the idea that people had the freedom to utilize their talent and ability to create something for themselves. But then it went pear shaped and we lost the welfare state with everything privatized. But each generation faces these issues and can recreate a better situation.

The key is learning from our mistakes which I think we have trouble doing. Self interest seems to step in and people find it hard to give up their comfortable worlds. But how this relates to spirituality is that spirituality is about sacrificing and giving up the comforts of this world for something more transcendent. But if people don't think there is anything more transcendent than this world then thats going to be a hard ask.
 
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So I am ready book about the brain and how it tries to make sense of all the data brought to it. It makes a lot of guesses about what reality is. Sometimes it is right and sometimes wrong. When it has experienced things the same way before it is more apt to be more correct. That is learning. Considering new data and possibilities is how we learn. But learning takes more energy than not learning. It is far easier to live in an echo chamber where we do not have to tolerate something we have not heard before or do not agree with. If you want a healthy brain, seriously consider views that you do not agree with. That does not mean ha have to then agree with them.
 
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stevevw

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So I am ready book about the brain and how it tries to make sense of all the data brought to it. It makes a lot of guesses about what reality is. Sometimes it is right and sometimes wrong. When it has experienced things the same way before it is more apt to be more correct. That is learning. Considering new data and possibilities is how we learn. But learning takes more energy than not learning. It is far easier to live in an echo chamber where we do not have to tolerate something we have not heard before or do not agree with. If you want a healthy brain, seriously consider views that you do not agree with. That does not mean ha have to then agree with them.
I remeber I think it was a video from Jordan Peterson about Mind Mapping. Like you say how we are continually scanning and making sense of our surroundings. Much of what we percieve is put into the subconscious as we have learnt to create systems and subsystems for categoring everything so we don't have information overload.

Theres lots of stuff we are not consciously aware of like say the details in a street scene like trees, signs, people, dogs, distance, whats above, down the street, noises ect but we do take it in as part of moving through space.

But primarily human sense making is not about the space, or distance, or objects or audio waves as in space but its about meaning making. We look at stuff as to what it means. We see an apple on a table and we understand it as something for comsumption, sustegen, or we hear a noise such as a bang and we turn because it may be a threat.

Mind mapping is meaning making. Peterson gives this good analogy of reality, reality is not just about 'matter' as in the objective world but 'what Matters'. Matter of a different kind and I think this is the true reality, the conscious experience of meaning in the world. What lies beyond the matter.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I remeber I think it was a video from Jordan Peterson about Mind Mapping. Like you say how we are continually scanning and making sense of our surroundings. Much of what we percieve is put into the subconscious as we have learnt to create systems and subsystems for categoring everything so we don't have information overload.

Theres lots of stuff we are not consciously aware of like say the details in a street scene like trees, signs, people, dogs, distance, whats above, down the street, noises ect but we do take it in as part of moving through space.

But primarily human sense making is not about the space, or distance, or objects or audio waves as in space but its about meaning making. We look at stuff as to what it means. We see an apple on a table and we understand it as something for comsumption, sustegen, or we hear a noise such as a bang and we turn because it may be a threat.

Mind mapping is meaning making. Peterson gives this good analogy of reality, reality is not just about 'matter' as in the objective world but 'what Matters'. Matter of a different kind and I think this is the true reality, the conscious experience of meaning in the world. What lies beyond the matter.
Good for you sticking with Maps of meaning. I didn't get very far but hope t return to is some day. The Brain Books, by Lisa Feldman Barret, sje talks about Social Reality. It sounds a lot like meaning making.
 
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