General anesthesia and consciousness

[Hans Blaster]

The results say that natural causes are out of the question. So if natural causes are out of the question, what does that leave us with? The most likely explanation is the supernatural unless you are already biased against such notions.

Natural causes are ruled out? Are you sure about that? I haven't seen that from the evidence provided.

 

[All Becomes New]

Natural causes are ruled out? Are you sure about that? I haven't seen that from the evidence provided.

You tell me the natural explanation then.

 

[All Becomes New]

@Hans Blaster

Here's the quote I gave in case you missed it.

Our results show that medical factors cannot account for occurrence of NDE; although all patients had been clinically dead, most did not have NDE. Furthermore, seriousness of the crisis was not related to occurrence or depth of the experience. If purely physiological factors resulting from cerebral anoxia caused NDE, most of our patients should have had this experience. Patients' medication was also unrelated to frequency of NDE. Psychological factors are unlikely to be important as fear was not associated with NDE.

 

[Hans Blaster]

@Hans Blaster

Here's the quote I gave in case you missed it.

They are talking about the difference between the group of patients that had NDEs and those that didn't in that particular life threatening scenario. (I think it was cardiac arrest when I looked at the Lancet paper. And I think I did read that text.)

If you want to know what causes NDEs, this is exactly the kind of study you would need to conduct. It is shocking (well, no, not really shocking) that they didn't sort it out with one cohort of patients. It is a good start though.

 

[All Becomes New]

They are talking about the difference between the group of patients that had NDEs and those that didn't in that particular life threatening scenario. (I think it was cardiac arrest when I looked at the Lancet paper. And I think I did read that text.)

If you want to know what causes NDEs, this is exactly the kind of study you would need to conduct. It is shocking (well, no, not really shocking) that they didn't sort it out with one cohort of patients. It is a good start though.

They were mentioning that the study found no medical reason why these patients experience an NDE. What other naturalistic explanation is there? I'd like to know what naturalistic theory it is you think you can ride to the bank, so to speak.

 

[Emmawowee]

Natural causes are ruled out? Are you sure about that? I haven't seen that from the evidence provided.

They've tried every single explanation. The DMT one, the "hidden brain waves", the ketamine one, the "dreaming" one. The hypoxia one. All have been disproven. There's zero evolutionary reason why the brain would need to "comfort" itself in death or how that would even get passed down. And even if it DID, that would still point to some form of intelligent design.
If you have any argument for natural causes, I can post studies that refute it.

 

[Hans Blaster]

They were mentioning that the study found no medical reason why these patients experience an NDE.

None that they have tested seem to work. That is a more full assessment of the state of the research from what I can tell. It does seem like they are finally getting study sizes that are better and more rigorously selected. Perhaps progress can be made.

What other naturalistic explanation is there? I'd like to know what naturalistic theory it is you think you can ride to the bank, so to speak.

Hallucinations and their causes aren't something I've given much thought to as it doesn't particularly interest me. That a [redacted] physicist doesn't know what might be the cause of something happening in the brain says nothing about the state of the science.

 

[Hans Blaster]

They've tried every single explanation. The DMT one, the "hidden brain waves", the ketamine one, the "dreaming" one. The hypoxia one. All have been disproven.

This list does not feel exhaustive.

There's zero evolutionary reason why the brain would need to "comfort" itself in death or how that would even get passed down. And even if it DID, that would still point to some form of intelligent design.

Why would you think it is comfort for the brain at death? Firstly, we have only the reports from survivors. Second, not all NDEs are reported to be pleasant. Thirdly, and most important, if it is the brain breaking down under extreme stress, then it represents a neurological failure of some kind, right? Whatever weird things happen neither need to be helpful or harmful. That people project their fantasies onto it is perhaps not that odd.

We have no idea how common these experiences are for non-survivors (and likely never will).

If you have any argument for natural causes, I can post studies that refute it.

All you'll have to anything I can offer is a general assumption against natural causes.

 

[Emmawowee]

This list does not feel exhaustive.

Why would you think it is comfort for the brain at death? Firstly, we have only the reports from survivors. Second, not all NDEs are reported to be pleasant. Thirdly, and most important, if it is the brain breaking down under extreme stress, then it represents a neurological failure of some kind, right? Whatever weird things happen neither need to be helpful or harmful. That people project their fantasies onto it is perhaps not that odd.

We have no idea how common these experiences are for non-survivors (and likely never will).

All you'll have to anything I can offer is a general assumption against natural causes.

So for unpleasant NDEs it's estimated those are less than 1%

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2017/01/NDE21_distressingfNDE-Psych.pdf

and I found it interesting than an atheist who later became a pastor, had an unpleasant one until he accepted Jesus.
And why would a neurological failure produce an extremely lucid experience? While the brain is 100% shut down.

 

[Hans Blaster]

So for unpleasant NDEs it's estimated those are less than 1%

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2017/01/NDE21_distressingfNDE-Psych.pdf

and I found it interesting than an atheist who later became a pastor, had an unpleasant one until he accepted Jesus.

His NDE stopped when he accepted Jesus? How does that compute? I thought they ended when you woke up.

And why would a neurological failure produce an extremely lucid experience? While the brain is 100% shut down.

I don't know. I'm a rocket surgeon, not a brain surgeon, Jim.

 

[Emmawowee]

His NDE stopped when he accepted Jesus? How does that compute? I thought they ended when you woke up.

I don't know. I'm a rocket surgeon, not a brain surgeon, Jim.

Not his NDE, the unpleasant part of it. It became pleasant after he accepted Jesus. Super cool story.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Not his NDE, the unpleasant part of it. It became pleasant after he accepted Jesus. Super cool story.

But the unpleasant part happens *during* the NDE. Did he finally get amnesia or something? (And no, I am not going to was 11 minutes to watch such a story, and certainly not 110 minutes.)

 

[Emmawowee]

But the unpleasant part happens *during* the NDE. Did he finally get amnesia or something? (And no, I am not going to was 11 minutes to watch such a story, and certainly not 110 minutes.)

Howard Storm (author) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's the wikipedia entry on it that includes his story.

 

[partinobodycular]

While the brain is 100% shut down.

Not so fast. A recent study shows that while 40% of cardiac arrest patients experience some form of consciousness after the heart stops, (Including experiences that are usually defined as NDE's) But this study also showed that these were accompanied by bursts of normal brainwave activity continuing for up to an hour after cardiac arrest.

Conclusions​

Consciousness. awareness and cognitive processes may occur during CA. The emergence of normal EEG may reflect a resumption of a network-level of cognitive activity, and a biomarker of consciousness, lucidity and RED (authentic “near-death” experiences).

So the idea that NDE's occur during periods of no brain wave activity may simply be wrong. Normal brainwave activity can occur even in a patient who previously showed no signs of brain activity at all.

AWAreness during REsuscitation - II: A multi-center study of consciousness and awareness in cardiac arrest

 

[Emmawowee]

Not so fast. A recent study shows that while 40% of cardiac arrest patients experience some form of consciousness after the heart stops, (Including experiences that are usually defined as NDE's) But this study also showed that these were accompanied by bursts of normal brainwave activity continuing for up to an hour after cardiac arrest.



So the idea that NDE's occur during periods of no brain wave activity may simply be wrong. Normal brainwave activity can occur even in a patient who previously showed no signs of brain activity at all.

AWAreness during REsuscitation - II: A multi-center study of consciousness and awareness in cardiac arrest

AWARE II had zero conclusions due to small sample size. And all of those who DID have brain activity didn’t have an NDE.

“This latest report of persistent brain waves after cardiac arrest has been blown out of proportion by the media. In fact, his team did not show any association between these brain waves and conscious activity,” said Dr. Bruce Greyson, Carlson Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia School of Medicine in Charlottesville.
“That is, those patients who had near-death experiences did not show the reported brain waves, and those who did show the reported brain waves did not report near-death experiences,” Greyson told CNN via email.”

It’s correct that the study was not able to match electrical activity with a near death experience in the same patient, Parnia said.

“Our sample size wasn’t large enough. Most of our people didn’t live so we didn’t have hundreds of survivors. That’s the reality of it,” he said. “Of those that did live and had readable lelectroencephalograms, 40% of them showed that their brain waves went from flatline to showing normal signs of lucidity.”

 

[ViaCrucis]

I invite you to look at the actual papers on this subject that both @Emmawowee and I have posted that show there is no naturalistic explanation for these events.

I'll go through the thread and look at what's been presented that I haven't looked at yet, and then get back on that.

I'm honestly surprised that I am coming against such resistance to these things from other Christians. Christianity teaches there is life after death. Why Christians would in a sense reject this reality is mind-boggling.

It's not life after death that is being challenged by Christians. It's specifically that NDEs are, on the whole, legitimate experiences which can tell us something about life after death.

And I can tell you exactly why Christians would have an issue with this:

Because it's doing bad theology. Most Christians subscribe to an understanding of Divine Revelation as being an objective reality that is past. Chiefly, the Christian confession is that Jesus Christ, as the Eternal Logos made flesh, is God's Revelation (capital 'R'), and that either by Scripture alone (a principle known as Sola Scriptura) or the Church in its divinely received Sacred Tradition (which includes Scripture) presents the singular, objective deposit of faith; and thus God has, by the providential power of the Holy Spirit, preserved for His people, a universal witness of this one and same Jesus Christ and this deposit and divinely inspired witness provides for us what we are to receive, believe, confess, and also practice in our engagement with the world at large. In this there's simply no place for newer sources of divine truth. The Christian understanding about what happens when we die, and the ultimate conclusion of everything (Eschatology) is built upon this sacred witness, this deposit of faith. Thus claims of the supernatural must always be tested against the standards--the established norms--of doing Christianity, historically.

It's not that no NDE could be an authentic post-mortem experience; its that the weight of evidence would be immense; while the metrics are different (being religious, theological, etc as the methodology); there is just as much an intense need for the weight of evidence in order for science (which uses a naturalistic methodology by which to observe, test, and draw conclusion about natural reality). And for those whose philosophical dispositions are such that believing in something must pass a test of empirical naturalistic evidence, there needs to really be that kind of empirical kind of testing done on a claim in order to provide anything resembling sufficient evidence. While the theological/religious requirements are different, my resistance toward NDEs is both religious and scientific. I do not believe that the burden of evidence is sufficient on religious grounds, based on the historic methods testing; precisely because NDEs--much like modern claims of revelatory dreams or visions--orient themselves contrary to those historic methods, those historic religious standards. Especially when NDE claims are presented as though, "This is what happens when we die" in contrast to historic Christian statements and provisions for those questions. That an NDE would be used as a separate piece of divine information which should be offered as equal weight what has been received since Pentecost.

Are you a cessationist?

I don't identify as one. But based on your definition of what makes one a cessationist, I very well might be. I grew up Pentecostal, and have since found myself at a very different place theologically through a process of religious de/reconstruction that I spent most of my 20's undergoing.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[All Becomes New]

@ViaCrucis,

I understand your position. Unfortunately, your position does seem to go against scripture. Dreams and visions are something we in the West do not experience much in Christianity but they are much more normalized in other cultures. So that is just corroborative evidence and not what the Bible says, so you are not likely to believe such things. But if I were to say that the Bible teaches that dreams and visions are to last for all generations, what would you say? Acts 2 seems to say precisely that as it says, "For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

I can personally attest to many supernatural experiences in my own life. One is of a vision I had of heaven and another was of a dream of hell. I have also audibly heard a voice that said, "The Lord is here," and I live alone and my door was locked. Whether it was Christ Himself or an angel, I do not know except to say that the voice was indescribable. I've also had prophetic prayers and such. One such prayer was that I told my Elder that I felt God was telling me his wife would get a new heart. About a year later, she got a heart transplant. I've had plenty of other experiences as well. Anything from unlikely coincidences to full-on prophetic words. I don't say these things to tute my own horn. I say them because it is confirmation that the Bible is true and we can indeed count on the promises the Bible makes about us experiencing the supernatural in more frequent terms this side of the new covenant. I had a missionary tell me one time, "[O]ut here, if you don't believe in miracles, you might as well go home." I'm not saying you don't believe in miracles. I'm saying if you DO believe in miracles then choosing this or that supernatural thing to believe in is more or less limiting God.

Finally, many people who have never even heard the name of Jesus report having a vision or dream of Him, and when someone explained who Jesus was they immediately recognized who they saw as Him. There are many stories about bringing just the right person at just the right time for someone to get saved. Many many examples of this.

 

[trophy33]

1. Analgesia — you don't perceive pain

We are not talking about analgesia. And neither analgesia is sleeping.

 

[dlamberth]

@ViaCrucis,

I understand your position. Unfortunately, your position does seem to go against scripture. Dreams and visions are something we in the West do not experience much in Christianity but they are much more normalized in other cultures. So that is just corroborative evidence and not what the Bible says, so you are not likely to believe such things. But if I were to say that the Bible teaches that dreams and visions are to last for all generations, what would you say? Acts 2 seems to say precisely that as it says, "For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

I can personally attest to many supernatural experiences in my own life. One is of a vision I had of heaven and another was of a dream of hell. I have also audibly heard a voice that said, "The Lord is here," and I live alone and my door was locked. Whether it was Christ Himself or an angel, I do not know except to say that the voice was indescribable. I've also had prophetic prayers and such. One such prayer was that I told my Elder that I felt God was telling me his wife would get a new heart. About a year later, she got a heart transplant. I've had plenty of other experiences as well. Anything from unlikely coincidences to full-on prophetic words. I don't say these things to tute my own horn. I say them because it is confirmation that the Bible is true and we can indeed count on the promises the Bible makes about us experiencing the supernatural in more frequent terms this side of the new covenant. I had a missionary tell me one time, "[O]ut here, if you don't believe in miracles, you might as well go home." I'm not saying you don't believe in miracles. I'm saying if you DO believe in miracles then choosing this or that supernatural thing to believe in is more or less limiting God.

Finally, many people who have never even heard the name of Jesus report having a vision or dream of Him, and when someone explained who Jesus was they immediately recognized who they saw as Him. There are many stories about bringing just the right person at just the right time for someone to get saved. Many many examples of this.

I'm wondering if your taking mystical experiences and calling them supernatural experiences.

 

[BeyondET]

We are not talking about analgesia. And neither analgesia is sleeping.

certainly are not awake.