Is John Mcarthur guilty of heresy?

[ozso]

Only to some Protestants. I have yet to meet a single Catholic that thought such a strange thing. So the question becomes how we clear up this is understanding among some Protestants. How do we do that so they stop thinking that way?

I've yet to meet a Protestant who said anything about "mother of God". But the perception of Protestants regarding Catholics and Mary is they worship her, as I'm sure you know. And I don't think that's without reason.

 

[ozso]

it's even more obvious what he actually said.

What do you think he meant by it?

Okay, There's no point discussing further.
All the best.

I heard "cult of Mary" from a Catholic. Cult as in a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I've yet to meet a Protestant who said anything about "mother of God".

They are, just some of them, the ONLY ONES who think it means to Catholics that Mary originated the Trinity. I know this because some of them actually say so.

But the perception of Protestants regarding Catholics and Mary is they worship her, as I'm sure you know.

Yes, that is their, some of them again, perception.

And I don't think that's without reason.

Without good reason, but that hasn't stopped them.

 

[ozso]

They are, just some of them, the ONLY ONES who think it means to Catholics that Mary originated the Trinity. I know this because some of them actually say so.

The thing is one's personal experiences only cover a small scope and therefore that isn't much to go by.

Yes, that is their, some of them again, perception.

Without good reason, but that hasn't stopped them.

It looks like pretty good reason to me. I find the saying that "it's veneration, not worship" is like saying "it's damp, not wet".

 

[chevyontheriver]

The thing is one's personal experiences only cover a small scope and therefore that isn't much to go by.

It works fine for an existential quantifier, which mine was. You are correct that I did not propose a universal quantifier, as if to say all Protestants had the outlandish idea that Catholics thought Mary birthed the Trinity. I know most Protestants wouldn’t say that.

It looks like pretty good reason to me. I find the saying that "it's veneration, not worship" is like saying "it's damp, not wet".

Glad to know where I stand with you. I say I don’t worship Mary and you tell me I do. You must know me very well.

 

[ozso]

It works fine for an existential quantifier, which mine was. You are correct that I did not propose a universal quantifier, as if to say all Protestants had the outlandish idea that Catholics thought Mary birthed the Trinity. I know most Protestants wouldn’t say that.

What they're saying is "mother of God" sounds like that. Outside of the gospels, Mary is only mentioned one single time in the NT in Romans 16:6 where she is called "Mary the mother of Jesus".

The whole thing is a bit complicated because since Jesus existed from the beginning and all things were created by him, that means he created Mary who would give birth to his incarnation.

Glad to know where I stand with you. I say I don’t worship Mary and you tell me I do.

This isn't about you. This is about Catholicism as a whole.

You must know me very well.

I don't know you at all and vice versa. But I have seen people on their knees before statues of Mary, keening and bowing in prayer. I think I've even seen people laying prostrate before statues of Mary. So when I hear that Mary isn't worshiped, I find that difficult to accept.

Also:

 

[dzheremi]

The whole thing is a bit complicated because since Jesus existed from the beginning and all things were created by him, that means he created Mary who would give birth to his incarnation.

This is actually a point made by many a traditional Christian since very, very early in the history of our religion, that it is Christ our God Who establishes X, and then undergoes it. This is a recurring theme in St. Gregory Thaumaturgus' (c. 213-270) sermons on the Theophany of Christ, for instance, with St. John the Forerunner marveling that when he baptizes, he does so in Christ's name, and yet Christ is now before him, asking to be baptized by his hand (as He of course is; again, Christ establishes X, and then undergoes it).

This makes me wonder why what earlier generations such at that of St. Gregory and others understood as an affirmation has apparently since become a complication for other Christians, but perhaps that's for some other thread.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What they're saying is "mother of God" sounds like that.

And what we are saying is that is a bizarre thing to think we believe, especially when no Catholic or Orthodox or other Traditional Christian you or I could find has ever said that.

So when I hear that Mary isn't worshiped, I find that difficult to accept.

In the end that is your problem and not mine.

 

[ozso]

And what we are saying is that is a bizarre thing to think we believe, especially when no Catholic or Orthodox or other Traditional Christian you or I could find has ever said that.

No it's not a matter of thinking Catholics believe that, it's a matter of what it sounds like in general.

In the end that is your problem and not mine.

I should have said when people hear that Mary isn't worshiped, and then see crowds on their knees to a statue of Mary, it looks like worship to them. If bowing down to praising and praying before a statue isn't worship then what is? (rhetorical question).

 

[The Liturgist]

No it's not a matter of thinking Catholics believe that, it's a matter of what it sounds like in general.

What matters is not what it sounds like to a vocal minority including yourself, but rather what the truth of the matter is, and the truth is that there is no worship, only veneration.

 

[ozso]

This is actually a point made by many a traditional Christian since very, very early in the history of our religion, that it is Christ our God Who establishes X, and then undergoes it. This is a recurring theme in St. Gregory Thaumaturgus' (c. 213-270) sermons on the Theophany of Christ, for instance, with St. John the Forerunner marveling that when he baptizes, he does so in Christ's name, and yet Christ is now before him, asking to be baptized by his hand (as He of course is; again, Christ establishes X, and then undergoes it).

This makes me wonder why what earlier generations such at that of St. Gregory and others understood as an affirmation has apparently since become a complication for other Christians, but perhaps that's for some other thread.

It didn't become complicated, it is complected, which is why St. Gregory Thaumaturgus had to teach about it. It's not too complicated for a mature Christian to figure out and understand, but it's still complicated nonetheless.

 

[Valletta]

If only the Apostles or even the Apostolic Fathers had bothered mentioning anything about it.

Wow. Read the Bible.

 

[ozso]

What matters is not what it sounds like to a vocal minority including yourself, but rather what the truth of the matter is, and the truth is that there is no worship, only veneration.

If it doesn't matter then why are you here talking about it? And I already stated that I personally don't have a problem with it, as if that matters to the subject at large, which it doesn't. Why do you folks keep making it a personal issue? Play the ball, not the other player.

 

[dzheremi]

Unfortunately, this is such a popular thing to 'know' about Catholicism, I even encountered it in the Coptic Orthodox congregation I met when I first attended liturgy at St. Bishoy in Abuquerque, NM back in 2011. As Egyptian people are often wont to do, they descended upon the visitor/newcomer (me) with a lot of questions during the post-liturgy Agape meal, since it was my first time there and I hadn't known anyone there before (I just called the contact number on the diocese website, found out when they met for services, and showed up with the deacon who happened to live just down the street from me at the time; let this be a lesson to everyone about the wisdom of calling ahead ). When they found out I was RC (which I was, at the time), they asked the priest, Fr. Marcus (notably not me, the actual Catholic person who was sitting right there next to them ) , "Abouna, is it true that they worship St. Mary? Because I heard that they did", so Fr. Marcus asked me if it was true, and I said no, RCs don't worship St. Mary, but that is a popular belief about Roman Catholicism held by others. Apparently not satisfied to hear this come from some foreign guy, instead of the community's ecclesiastical authority who they had actually asked, someone decided to ask again "Is that true?", to which Fr. Marcus, in the gentle but firm way of a true father, simply responded "You heard what he said." That put an end to that question real quick. Would that CF had its own Fr. Marcus! Hahaha.

 

[Valletta]

No it's not a matter of thinking Catholics believe that, it's a matter of what it sounds like in general.

I should have said when people hear that Mary isn't worshiped, and then see crowds on their knees to a statue of Mary, it looks like worship to them. If bowing down to praising and praying before a statue isn't worship then what is? (rhetorical question).

Catholics are a praying bunch. People would do so much better if they spent the time they take trying to find fault with others and other religions and use it to pray. On your knees before God is an excellent way. Catholics have reminders of God all around, maybe a crucifix, or statue of a saint or angels, a painting depicting a religious scene. Of course Catholics are not worshiping the statue or the crucifix or the painting, but there are always some who will falsely accuse. Imagine if Catholics went around accusing other Christians or worshiping the wood or metal because they wore a cross or prayed by a cross or prayed in a church with a cross on top.

 

[The Liturgist]

If it doesn't matter then why are you here talking about it? And I already stated that I personally don't have a problem with it, as if that matters to the subject at large, which it doesn't. Why do you folks keep making it a personal issue? Play the ball, not the other player.

I didn’t say it doesn’t matter. It does matter. i fear you misread my post.

What I said, to use different wording and with some clarification, is that the fact that some people think we engage in worship of St. Mary is irrelevant in deciding the truth of the matter, what matters is what we are actually doing, and that is we are venerating and not worshipping the Theotokos.

However the error of the people who have concluded falsel that we do worship St. Mary is relevant in that it propagates a falsehood that we are guilty of transgressing the second commandment and engaging in idolatry, which is false.

So, what is irrelevant in establishing the truth of what we are doing, that being the perception of people who have concluded we are idolaters, is relevant in another respect, that being that it slanders us.

I hope that helps, and I apologize for not making this clearer in the first place. I failed to make it clear that the views of people who think we engage in idolatry are not entirely irrelevant, but only irrelevant as evidence of what we are actually doing, since it is basically hearsay owing to a lack of knowledge of our doctrines and praxis. But it is very relevant because it causes people to be put off of traditional Christianity and discouraged from venerating the Blessed Virgin Mary based on an error of perception.

 

[ozso]

Wow. Read the Bible.

The Bible says nothing about praying to Mary, Mary being a heavenly intercessor, Mary being the Queen of Heaven, Mary being an immaculate conception, Mary being a perpetual virgin, the assumption of Mary etc. The last thing Catholicism should want someone to do is look for all of that in the Bible.

 

[ozso]

I didn’t say it doesn’t matter. It does matter. i fear you misread my post.

What I said, to use different wording and with some clarification, is that the fact that some people think we engage in worship of St. Mary is irrelevant in deciding the truth of the matter, what matters is what we are actually doing, and that is we are venerating and not worshipping the Theotokos.

However the error of the people who have concluded falsel that we do worship St. Mary is relevant in that it propagates a falsehood that we are guilty of transgressing the second commandment and engaging in idolatry, which is false.

So, what is irrelevant in establishing the truth of what we are doing, that being the perception of people who have concluded we are idolaters, is relevant in another respect, that being that it slanders us.

I hope that helps, and I apologize for not making this clearer in the first place. I failed to make it clear that the views of people who think we engage in idolatry are not entirely irrelevant, but only irrelevant as evidence of what we are actually doing, since it is basically hearsay owing to a lack of knowledge of our doctrines and praxis. But it is very relevant because it causes people to be put off of traditional Christianity and discouraged from venerating the Blessed Virgin Mary based on an error of perception.

You were perfectly clear in the other post, I just had brain glitch. Worship and venerate are synonyms. And there can be a fine line between the two that's easily crossed. That's why when people get on their knees before a statue of Mary and pray to her with words that lavish her with piaise, it becomes indiscernible from worship. Because while it's called veneration, it has all the characteristics of worship.

 

[The Liturgist]

You were perfectly clear in the other post, I just had brain glitch. Worship and venerate are synonyms. And there can be a fine line between the two that's easily crossed. That's why when people get on their knees before a statue of Mary and pray to her with words that lavish her with piaise, it becomes indiscernible from worship. Because while it's called veneration, it has all the characteristics of worship.

That’s not true. It lacks two essential elements of worship: intent, and sacrifice.

 

[Valletta]

The Bible says nothing about praying to Mary, Mary being a heavenly intercessor, Mary being the Queen of Heaven, Mary being an immaculate conception, Mary being a perpetual virgin, the assumption of Mary etc. The last thing Catholicism should want someone to do is look for all of that in the Bible.

The vast majority of prayer in the Bible is to God the Father. We are not specifically instructed to pray to Jesus, but that can be derived from an understanding of the Bible. The Bible states that Mary was there when Jesus was born and when she took Him to the Temple. It states that at her request at Cana, Jesus worked His first public miracle. (This is what, starting with Solomon, the queen mother does--makes requests of the king.) She was there at the foot of the cross. She was there in the Upper Room when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit. And Revelation shows she is there in Heaven. First we see the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven, and the very next passage depicts Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant. She is there praying for you and me, shown clothed with the sun, and wearing a crown of twelve stars. I suggest you read these passages, when I open the Bible I use the Catholic way of asking the Holy Spirit for discernment. Cardinal Newman put it well:

The Holy Apostle would not have spoken of the Church under this particular image unless there had existed a Blessed Virgin Mary, who was exalted on high and the object of veneration to all the faithful. No one doubts that the “man-child” spoken of is an allusion to our Lord; why then is not “the Woman” an allusion to his mother?

Saint Ambrose, a Doctor of the Church, wrote of Mary's role back in the fourth century:
". . . because she is the Mother of the Church, for she brought forth Him who is the Head of the Church."

Realize that back in Genesis the first woman was born without sin and sinned, while Mary, our New Eve, reversed this and never sinned. As I've said, so much understanding of the early church was lost by many after the reformation. As the Bible shows us she is blessed because, unlike Eve, this woman did God's will.