Is John Mcarthur guilty of heresy?

[OldAbramBrown]

... so far I don't agree that pointing out a complete lack of scriptural evidence for a doctrine telling Christians what they are supposedly supposed to do as an error in logic. There's also the the fallacy fallacy. Which is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone assumes that if an argument contains a logical fallacy, then its conclusion must be false.

So Catholicism and Orthodoxy isn't Iconoclastic? ...

i . Some senior Romans have elevated spreading tolerated devotion to obligatory status in doctrine. As a backward child I smelled a rat yet I was still considered a Roman.

ii . In fallacy fallacy (well pointed out), the "conclusion" doesn't follow from the so called "argument". I think TL sometimes oversteps the import of his citations, in application to us or some others. The way I appreciate pieces of background information is to apply them according to my conscience (a sort of private oikonomia).

iii . In a similar light you could distinguish degrees of what you call "catholic" and "orthodox" . . .

 

[OldAbramBrown]

It looks complicated to some, It is not obscure, except to the blind or willfully deceived....
without right judgment, there is no righteousness and no light in a church nor in a person.

It's for each of us to catch up at our own speed as we individually weigh up details we may come across.

Aaron, what do you personally think about those who failed to support some of JM's criticisms in "Strange Fire"?

Doesn't Ezekiel say they are at fault?

I can't imagine what it is like to live in that district but I intuit English religion has now become like it.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

I didn't realize ... by thy intercession.

Liguori is not a founder of doctrine. His is apparently just a (pragmatically) organisationally tolerated byway. I never knowingly encountered his proponents but of course I was "fringe" anyway!

Of course OL is interceding like so many other holy people. The Te Deum puts it better. Truth hasn't favouritism!

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Christology can be explained perfectly well without there being volumes praising Mary. As far as Jesus' humanity goes, how is that demonstrated in portraying his mother as being a miraculous human in being an immaculate conception etc? What's demonstrated in Christ's humanity throughout the Gospel was his lowly status by worldly standards. The Gospel describes Mary as being so ordinary and unimportant she couldn't get a room in an inn, so Jesus had to be born in a stable.

Mary's conception was probably similar to John the Baptist's. Their parents led holy lives full of belief.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Here's an utterly basic angle I've cleverly thought up, which no-one else has touched on yet.

According to me we can be inbreathed and strengthened by Holy Spirit because Christ Jesus ascended; He ascended because He rose again; He rose again because He was born and died.

Jesus Himself and the prophets say heresy is functional. At core: those higher up who oppress people smaller than themselves who don't fit a misconstrued external template.

Thus "Christology", and anything balanced in Mariology, are really matters of Holy Spirit indwelling and strengthening. Isn't that what we need the example in from each other? Isn't that what the world needs to see in order to not give up hope?

It would be good if TL and dzheremi could give their personal observation of this in addition to sources they cite.

 

[Valletta]

There can be too much prayer, praise and adoration directed towards someone or something other than God. And it seems that's what's going on with Mary.

Let me ask you this; can there be such a thing as too much prayer and praise directed towards Mary? Can it be overdone? Or is it supposed to be limitless?

I think there needs to be a lot more prayer directed toward Mary. God gave us intercessors and we should not spurn what God has given us, the lack of such prayer is because so many people do not have a good understanding of God and His plan for us.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

I think there needs to be a lot more prayer directed toward Mary. God gave us intercessors and we should not spurn what God has given us, the lack of such prayer is because so many people do not have a good understanding of God and His plan for us.

Valletta, what do you (as a personal individual) really think of the Te Deum?

Have you noticed an organisationally tolerated faction promoting it, and if so, in your observation did they do so proportionately or disproportionately?

Roman members in Britain haven't heard of it and don't know it exists (factions that claimed they were going to start promoting it, didn't deliver).

Your defence of overall generalities doesn't show us what you are driving at. You know very well there have been political motives behind the agitators.

And there are relatively balanced litanies, effectively suppressed.

You could explain His plan for Holy Spirit indwelling and strengthening (unvetoed).

 

[Valletta]

i . Some senior Romans have elevated spreading tolerated devotion to obligatory status in doctrine. As a backward child I smelled a rat yet I was still considered a Roman.

Roman mayor Virginia Raggi was in dispute with the Catholic Church. I've spoken with Romans and those who live in the city are a quite diverse culture.

 

[dzheremi]

Let me ask you this; can there be such a thing as too much prayer and praise directed towards Mary? Can it be overdone? Or is it supposed to be limitless?

In answering this, I would distinguish between quality -- in that not all beliefs about St. Mary are Orthodox, so some should not be present at all -- and quantity, meaning the number of prayers, or number of words in the prayers or whatever. Your comment about the thousands of words dedicated to St. Mary in Roman Catholic prayers seemed to be focused on the latter, hence my question. To phrase my point in another way that is more polemical than I would have originally gone for given this multi-confessional environment (but is hopefully clearer), right praise can be short or long, and so long as it is sound, it will be welcomed and participated in by all. Heresy or other error is something else entirely, in which case it would not matter if there were five or five million words about it. So in neither case would we say "Woah, that's too many", since that misses the point. The shortest Coptic prayer/hymn that I can think of that is dedicated to St. Mary, that known in Coptic as "Pijenmisi", is literally one sentence, and it is about how the virgin birth of our Lord is in keeping with the prophetic sayings. It doesn't even mention St. Mary by name, though it's obviously about her, since she is the one who gave birth to Him. But it expresses a spiritual and historical truth, so of course it belongs with all proper worship, same as more in-depth hymns do.

 

[FenderTL5]

There can be too much prayer, praise and adoration directed towards someone or something other than God. And it seems that's what's going on with Mary.

Let me ask you this; can there be such a thing as too much prayer and praise directed towards Mary? Can it be overdone? Or is it supposed to be limitless?

I'm curious; have you ever attended an Orthodox Liturgy or prayer service? I get the impression that you haven't but I could be wrong.
I get that impression because the 'balance' is so one sided toward the Holy Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that it's hard to comprehend your objection(s). There is hardly an instance where the mention of the Theotokos doesn't point toward Christ.

 

[ozso]

I'm curious; have you ever attended an Orthodox Liturgy or prayer service? I get the impression that you haven't but I could be wrong.

I get that impression because the 'balance' is so one sided toward the Holy Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that it's hard to comprehend your objection(s). There is hardly an instance where the mention of the Theotokos doesn't point toward Christ.

Eastern Orthodox is pretty obscure anyplace I've ever lived. Whereas Roman Catholic is everywhere. And the RCC is what MacArthur was addressing. How many Orthodox churches and members are there in Nashville compared to Catholic?

 

[ozso]

I think there needs to be a lot more prayer directed toward Mary. God gave us intercessors and we should not spurn what God has given us, the lack of such prayer is because so many people do not have a good understanding of God and His plan for us.

Personally I'd rather spend more time with God in prayer. Because I know for a fact that The Father hears me and that the the Holy Spirit intercedes for me, and that the Father will give me what I pray for (that's in keeping with his will and glory of course) when I ask for it in Jesus' name. That's what Jesus and the Apostles promised me, and I believe it. Personally I don't need Mary when I have a God who's not only willing to hear my prayers but desires that I pray to Him.

 

[FenderTL5]

Eastern Orthodox is pretty obscure anyplace I've ever lived. Whereas Roman Catholic is everywhere..
..How many Orthodox churches and members are there in Nashville compared to Catholic?

So your answer to my question is "no".
Fair enough.

fwiw, I was completely unaware of Orthodoxy until well into my adulthood. So, I understand the obscurity. I do not know the ratio of RCC to Orthodox in Nashville but your point s well taken, it is probabaly significant. That again speaks to the obscurity.

the RCC is what MacArthur was addressing..

That is correct. Earlier in this thread I said (in effect) that MacArhur, in his zeal to denigrate the Catholics crossed the line into heretical error. I don't know whether it was intentional or not. However, that error is also what is being addressed and that impacts all of Christendom. Heretical teaching should be opposed regardless of your leanings in tradition. That God the Word was birthed into the world via the Theotokos is core Christianity. That "all generations will call me (Mary) Blessed.." is Holy Scripture.
There's not much in the way of defense for some of MacArthur's comments (yes, I read and listened to it). I was raised Independent Baptist, later Southern Baptist.. I know the objections and anti-Catholic arguments. Some are fair. some aren't.

 

[ozso]

So your answer to my question is "no".
Fair enough.

fwiw, I was completely unaware of Orthodoxy until well into my adulthood. So, I understand the obscurity. I do not know the ratio of RCC to Orthodox in Nashville but your point s well taken, it is probabaly significant. That again speaks to the obscurity.

That is correct. Earlier in this thread I said (in effect) that MacArhur, in his zeal to denigrate the Catholics crossed the line into heretical error. I don't know whether it was intentional or not. However, that error is also what is being addressed and that impacts all of Christendom. Heretical teaching should be opposed regardless of your leanings in tradition. That God the Word was birthed into the world via the Theotokos is core Christianity. That "all generations will call me (Mary) Blessed.." is Holy Scripture.
There's not much in the way of defense for some of MacArthur's comments (yes, I read and listened to it). I was raised Independent Baptist, later Southern Baptist.. I know the objections and anti-Catholic arguments. Some are fair. some aren't.

Well the answer is no in a way. I have watched Orthodox services on youtube. And I'm subscribed to an Archimandrite's youtube channel.

The claim is MacArthur committed a heretical error, and that's been explained thoroughly, but I don't agree. On one hand there's the fact that he teaches the Hypostatic Union. On the other hand there's something he said about Mary. Which was Mary isn't the mother of God as in the Godhead. He sees the titles given to Mary as intended to exalt her rather than to establish Christology.

 

[Valletta]

Personally I'd rather spend more time with God in prayer. Because I know for a fact that The Father hears me and that the the Holy Spirit intercedes for me, and that the Father will give me what I pray for (that's in keeping with his will and glory of course) when I ask for it in Jesus' name. That's what Jesus and the Apostles promised me, and I believe it. Personally I don't need Mary when I have a God who's not only willing to hear my prayers but desires that I pray to Him.

You simply lack understanding of Mary's role in God's plan.

 

[FenderTL5]

Well the answer is no in a way. I have watched Orthodox services on youtube. And I'm subscribed to an Archimandrite's youtube channel.

Thank you for that clarification.

The claim is MacArthur committed a heretical error, and that's been explained thoroughly, but I don't agree.

He uses Nestorian arguments to buttress his position, as discussed in prior posts. Take that for what it's worth, intentionally or not.

On one hand there's the fact that he teaches the Hypostatic Union. On the other hand there's something he said about Mary. Which was Mary isn't the mother of God as in the Godhead.

First, he does not make that distinction (as in the Godhead), I double checked.
Secondly, It is impossible to teach Hypostatic union accurately and at the same time deny that Mary is Theotokos, God bearer.
God the Word was birthed into the world via the Theotokos. God becoming a man. 100% God, but at the same time 100% man. That's the Incarnation.

He sees the titles given to Mary as intended to exalt her rather than to establish Christology.

Perhaps. It looks more like anti-Catholicism on-a-stick to me and I'm not RCC.

 

[ozso]

You simply lack understanding of Mary's role in God's plan.

If only the Apostles or even the Apostolic Fathers had bothered mentioning anything about it.

 

[ozso]

Thank you for that clarification.

He uses Nestorian arguments to buttress his position, as discussed in prior posts. Take that for what it's worth, intentionally or not.

First, he does not make that distinction (as in the Godhead), I double checked.

It's pretty obvious what he meant.

Secondly, It is impossible to teach Hypostatic union accurately and at the same time deny that Mary is Theotokos, God bearer.
God the Word was birthed into the world via the Theotokos. God becoming a man. 100% God, but at the same time 100% man. That's the Incarnation.

Perhaps. It looks more like anti-Catholicism on-a-stick to me and I'm not RCC.

In this case it's mostly anti cult of Mary.

 

[FenderTL5]

It's pretty obvious what he meant.

it's even more obvious what he actually said.

In this case it's mostly anti cult of Mary.

Okay, There's no point discussing further.
All the best.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'm saying the term "Mother of God" gives off the impression to some/many that Mary gave birth to the Godhead.

Only to some Protestants. I have yet to meet a single Catholic that thought such a strange thing. So the question becomes how we clear up this is understanding among some Protestants. How do we do that so they stop thinking that way?