I am your healer

[Guojing]

But you're under the impression that a minister can just lay hands on a believer and God will heal them regardless as to what the other person is believing. Generally speaking that's not how it works.

Jesus said that would happen in Mark 16:18

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

No qualifier needed for the recipient.

 

[Bobber]

Curious, when you are sick, you never ever thought on relying on what Paul taught you in Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 instead?

Why should I? They don't directly speak of the healing issue. Other verses do.

 

[Bobber]

That all sounds very rousing.. "fight your doubts", "declare the word," etc. But the truth is the bible never says you must have that kind of faith.

It doesn't?

What about, all things are possible to the one who believes, Mk 9:23

All God's saints all throughout the Bible were encouraged to rise up against their doubts and walk by faith? How in the world could you think that's not true?

What about Mk 11:23? For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. ”

(When one walks by faith heir natural mind will seek to dominate and keep one in unbelief) See the next verse below,

Prov 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding.

So the Bible is FULL of this type of faith. It certainly isn't full of saints walking in passivity.

 

[Bobber]

If someone is praying, as per Mark 11:24, and they receive what they have prayed for (healing is not mentioned here),

Let's start here....nothing is mentioned there. It says what things so ever you desire when you pray.....here Jesus was teaching his followers how to pray to get results. Faith is definitely the issue in the verse so logic dictates it's the prayer of faith James 5 talks about and James 1.

 

[Bobber]

If someone is praying, as per Mark 11:24, and they receive what they have prayed for (healing is not mentioned here), they could say that they received because THEY believed.

You're missing something and missing this one thing I'm going to tell you can keep people out of receiving from God answered prayer. This is very signicfant and no small thing but it's the crux of the matter. Let me put down the verse, and I'll put down two versions,

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. Mk 11:24 NIV

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Mk 11:24

So here's the problem. You're wanting to make this to read if only they believed. Then you add your version as to what constitutes believing. Jesus told us WHAT believing brings results. It's not just any type of believing. It is this type of believing....believe the you receive them when you pray.....when you pray you're to do what? Believe that you receive them. Much of the whole church world won't do that though. They're going to be ONLY do so when they see it manifested. So this LARGELY is one big reason why prayers are seldom answered People won't do this. They trust to their own understanding and not the Lord nor his word.

The sick person did not have to believe as Mark says, because it was the prayer of the elders which brought healing.

Well that's a theory you have. I don't buy it though. It's called the prayer of faith and God expects his children to stand on the word and grow in faith.

I read a testimony of a mother who, on several occasions, took her sick baby to a healer for prayer. The baby didn't believe anything, and most of the time he was asleep, but God healed.

Of course not. But I've already told you God doesn't expect much of anything from and I called it a spiritual baby and most certainly not a real physical baby in years. Same as in the FAITH realm. And I've known lots which have said when they first became a Christian God was answering all their prayers.... years later not much of anything and they wondered why?

 

[swordsman1]

What about, all things are possible to the one who believes, Mk 9:23

....believes what? What was the question Jesus was replying to when he said that? It wasn't "If I could only believe it will happen....". It was "If you can do anything...." The boy's father didn't believe in Jesus's ABILITY.

We've already determined from the NT examples that the only faith needed for healing is that God has the ability to heal. And you wouldn't say a prayer to God unless you believed that. Jesus praised that simple level of faith which the centurion and many others had, and granted their requests. He never demanded the near impossible WoF level of faith where prayers will only be answered if they can muster up enough faith to hit the fairground bell of never doubting they will receive it.

What about Mk 11:23? For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. ”

I've already explained to you why you cannot use Mark 11:24 to justify your WoF doctrine. How many more times must I repeat it? You can't take that verse in isolation from the rest of scripture, which states elsewhere that God will only grant prayers according to his will (and scripture also says that it is sometimes God's will for us to suffer instead). If it is his will to grant our request then of course we can believe we will receive it. It's not fairground bell faith to believe that God will accomplish his will.

 

[Strong in Him]

Let's start here....nothing is mentioned there. It says what things so ever you desire when you pray.....here Jesus was teaching his followers how to pray to get results.

No, he wasn't.
Both Matthew and Mark record that Jesus said these words after he had ridden into Jerusalem, cleansed the temple and cursed a fig tree. It was not a teaching session on how they should pray to get God to give them what they wanted.

If you want Jesus' teaching on prayer;
1) the disciples asked him to teach them to pray, and he gave the Lord's prayer; asking God to give our daily bread - nothing about healing or receiving good health if you pray for it, Matthew 6, Luke 11.
2) He told them the parable of the persistent widow - to show them that they should always pray and not give up, Luke 18:1-8. If you "get results" first time there would be no need for persistence.
3) He told them that they would receive what they asked in his name, John 14:14. He said that after he taught the he was in the father and the father was in him. To ask something in Jesus' name means that you accept who he is and you ask with his authority and according to his will. Nothing here about people needing to believe that they already have what they are asking for.

 

[Strong in Him]

You're missing something and missing this one thing I'm going to tell you can keep people out of receiving from God answered prayer.

And I'm telling you that God has answered prayer from people who have no faith. It is not a "requirement". God heals because God heals; in his own way and time.
In my own case, the lady who said to me "I want to heal you" - not even, "God wants to heal you" - always said that she had no faith and went to church to make friends. When I heard her say those word, I burst out laughing and, rather unkindly, asked her what she was talking about.
That wasn't faith, from either of us, yet God healed.
And I'm glad it happened that way - because no one could say "I received/gave healing because I had enough faith/I prayed the "right" prayer and believed the right things/I had a gift of healing. That was all from God.
It happened that way for Jennifer Rees-Larcombe too - she called the elders to pray, went to healing services, claimed her healing, rebuked her lack of faith, forgave everyone she could think of; nothing. Then a young Christian woman simply said, "I feel God is saying he wants to heal you" - and 8 years of M.E, encephalitis and being in a wheelchair were over.

I don't deny at all that someone can go forward at a healing service, have, and confess, faith and be healed. I don't deny that some people have the gift of healing.
But it doesn't always happen like that - and if it doesn't, we trust God, keep praying and do not make the sick person feel they are to blame for God not doing what they wanted.

So here's the problem. You're wanting to make this to read if only they believed.

No, that's you saying that.
I am saying that sometimes Jesus healed, and heals today, with no evidence of faith on the part of the sick person. It may not be the "usual" way of healing, but it happens.
My point throughout all of this is that we can, and should, not put God in a box, claim that he will only heal in one way and if the person doesn't receive healing, it's because they have done it wrong.

Much of the whole church world won't do that though. They're going to be ONLY do so when they see it manifested.

Because that's what happened in the Gospels.
Jesus healed the paralysed, the blind, the lepers, the deaf and drove out evil spirits. At no point did he say, "well, no, you might not be able to see YET, Bartimaeus; you should have believed that you would receive healing before I even said the words 'you are healed'."

I'm pretty sure it was you who was arguing at one point that miracles produced faith - people SAW a lame man walk/blind man see, and they believed. Why are you now saying that people should have faith for the miracle BEFORE they see the healing?

Well that's a theory you have. I don't buy it though. It's called the prayer of faith and God expects his children to stand on the word and grow in faith.

You know that Scripture is full of people who trusted God, even though they didn't receive, and were commended for their faith? That faith is about trusting God in the dark times or when he doesn't seem to be answering prayer? Job said, "though he slay me; I will trust him." Shadrach and co said, "our God can save us, but if not we will now bow down to the idol". Paul said, "IN all these things, we are more than conquerors". Hebrew 11 commend people who had faith even though they didn't receive God' promise.
THAT'S what God wants - for us to trust him, look to him, continue in prayer and with our Christian lives even though he may appear to be silent. THAT is faith. Anyone can trust God when they see him doing great things.

And I've known lots which have said when they first became a Christian God was answering all their prayers.... years later not much of anything and they wondered why?

Yes, and I've said that sometimes things happen that way - God encourages us when we first become Christians, shows us his power, love etc. After a while, we are expected to trust, and walk with, him without the need for dramatic miracles.
He sometimes gives them, because he is loving, kind and gracious. But we should be able to trust him without them.

 

[Guojing]

They don't directly speak of the healing issue.

How would you interpret 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 to come to the conclusion it does not directly speak about healing?

 

[Bobber]

We've already determined from the NT examples that the only faith needed for healing is that God has the ability to heal. And you wouldn't say a prayer to God unless you believed that.

Jesus still said though what things soever you desire when you pray......BELIEVE THAT YOU RECEIVE THEM and you .....shall have them. Mk 11:24. He did not just say believe God is able.

Jesus praised that simple level of faith which the centurion ....

Well let's look at that. From Matt 8:8 .....the Centurion came to Jesus to get his servant healed. Jesus expressed in the affirmative he would come and do so. As far as the Centurion was concerned all Jesus had now to do was speak the word. Didn't matter what his phyiscal senses would tell him of doubt that it would be done. HE KNEW IT WOULD BE DONE. How did he know? When he told Jesus HOW HE KNEW it ended up where Jesus said he had never seen such GREAT FAITH in all Israel. What did he tell him?

He told him I have soldiers under me...when I tell one go he goes and to another do this or that he does it....in other words Jesus YOUR WORD has power and authority and seeing you've spoken your word that's the only thing I need to know that my servant is healed. You don't even have to come to my house. So did the man believe he received I mean actually believe he received before he saw it manifested? Yes he did. And then he later found out the servant was healed at the time Jesus spoke those words.

Now watch what Jesus had said to the Centurion....."Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour." So did the man believe he received before he saw it manifested? YES. He walked by faith and not by sight. And what if he had said I believe you can do it or that you're able ....no that wouldn't have taken him to the confident way of thinking that it's done. So he believed he received....and acted accordingly. Now the question will we do that in prayer. Believe we receive when we pray? Do we need to see it before we believe that we've got it? Granted that's one step beyond just believing that God is able.

and many others had, and granted their requests. He never demanded the near impossible WoF level of faith where prayers will only be answered if they can muster up enough faith to hit the fairground bell of never doubting they will receive it.


I've already explained to you why you cannot use Mark 11:24 to justify

i can you use Mk 11: 24 to justify what things soever you desire when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them. It' not just praying that you believe God is able. It's believing you receive WHEN you pray.

How many more times must I repeat it?

With all due respect you don't need to repeat what you're tired of repeating now.

If it is his will to grant our request then of course we can believe we will receive it.

But it is God's perfect will for his children to be healed and well. What Father would deny his children bread Matt 7:9 and Matt 15:26 states healing is the children's bread. Healing is also MERCY. The blind men cried out for mercy. Luke 13: 8 What type of mercy did they want? Their eyes to be opened. They got it. And surely goodness and mercy shall follow us all the days of our life Psalm 23:6 At least that's what God has always longed for us to have.

It's not fairground bell faith to believe that God will accomplish his will.

I'm the one who came up with the fairground bell false way of thinking of faith and I showed you what true faith does. It accepts God is good and of a noble character and joyfully will act accordingly. One may have to do this by faith at times but ones faith will be challenged. You count it all joy no matter what? Jesus said the devil will come and seek to steal the word of God from your heart. Sorry but sometimes there's a battle and Eph 6:10 tells us about that. One must stay in faith and by the shield of faith we quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. That means take fast hold of instruction and not to let it go. Don't just take hold of it but FAST HOLD of it and that takes determination. But it's not trying muster up believing God is good and honorable and will keep his word. If you love God you've already established that. At least in my estimation you should have.

 

[Aaron112]

No qualifier needed for the recipient.

Yet every Word of God is True. Jesus did not heal many in some towns He visited , as written, because of their unbelief.

Likewise, instructions in Scripture include "do not lay hands on someone too quickly, lest you take part in their sin" (may be paraphrased, I don't remember exactly).

 

[Aaron112]

He did not just say believe God is able.

I have personally met many people who said they believed God is able to heal; yet they would not seek healing nor go to someone who could heal them.
Strange but true.
Maybe not strange, considering mankind is so far from Torah (God's Word).

 

[Guojing]

Yet every Word of God is True. Jesus did not heal many in some towns He visited , as written, because of their unbelief.

Read that verse properly, no mighty works in that verse excluded healing.

 

[Bobber]

If you want Jesus' teaching on prayer;
1) the disciples asked him to teach them to pray, and he gave the Lord's prayer; asking God to give our daily bread - nothing about healing or receiving good health if you pray for it, Matthew 6, Luke 11.

And that's a great teaching on prayer. It's not the absolute and final word about prayer or that he didn't teach other things about it. Your bringing up Luke 18: 1,8 in your next words even demonstrates what I'm saying.

2) He told them the parable of the persistent widow - to show them that they should always pray and not give up, Luke 18:1-8. If you "get results" first time there would be no need for persistence.

I'd kindly suggest you're wrong however in the way that you're reading this,
He was talking about the UNJUST JUDGE who does this, who makes the woman keep coming putting her off. But Jesus made clear that's not the type of judge God is. What type of judge is he? "I tell you, He (God) will promptly carry out justice on their behalf."

 

[Strong in Him]

I'd kindly suggest you're wrong however in the way that you're reading this,

That's what the verse says, "Jesus told his disciples a parable to show that they should always pray and not give up."

The judge gave the woman what she wanted so that she wouldn't keep coming back and pestering him. God is not like that judge - he doesn't want us to stop praying; indeed he tells us to persevere.

 

[Bobber]

That's what the verse says, "Jesus told his disciples a parable to show that they should always pray and not give up."

The judge gave the woman what she wanted so that she wouldn't keep coming back and pestering him. God is not like that judge - he doesn't want us to stop praying; indeed he tells us to persevere.

And I'd suggest what you're failing to appreciate is that it is not persistence in keep praying the same thing over and over again but rather the persistence of hanging in there by FAITH. It seems to me Jesus had already said he's NOT like the unjust judge. (more later)

 

[Strong in Him]

And I'd suggest what you're failing to appreciate is that it is not persistence in keep praying the same thing over and over again but rather the persistence of hanging in there by FAITH. It seems to me Jesus had already said he's NOT like the unjust judge. (more later)

I never said anything about saying the same thing over and over again, and neither did Jesus. He told the parable to show that we should pray and not give up. Or were he, and Luke, wrong about that?
No, God is NOT like the unjust judge - he does NOT say "I'll answer their prayers so that they will stop bothering me". God answers prayer - and like everything else does it in love because he IS love. As long as we recognise that "wait" and "no" are also answers.

 

[swordsman1]

Well let's look at that. From Matt 8:8 .....the Centurion came to Jesus to get his servant healed. Jesus expressed in the affirmative he would come and do so. As far as the Centurion was concerned all Jesus had now to do was speak the word. Didn't matter what his phyiscal senses would tell him of doubt that it would be done. HE KNEW IT WOULD BE DONE. How did he know? When he told Jesus HOW HE KNEW it ended up where Jesus said he had never seen such GREAT FAITH in all Israel. What did he tell him?

He told him I have soldiers under me...when I tell one go he goes and to another do this or that he does it....in other words Jesus YOUR WORD has power and authority and seeing you've spoken your word that's the only thing I need to know that my servant is healed. You don't even have to come to my house. So did the man believe he received I mean actually believe he received before he saw it manifested? Yes he did. And then he later found out the servant was healed at the time Jesus spoke those words.

Now watch what Jesus had said to the Centurion....."Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour." So did the man believe he received before he saw it manifested? YES. He walked by faith and not by sight. And what if he had said I believe you can do it or that you're able ....no that wouldn't have taken him to the confident way of thinking that it's done. So he believed he received....and acted accordingly. Now the question will we do that in prayer. Believe we receive when we pray? Do we need to see it before we believe that we've got it? Granted that's one step beyond just believing that God is able.

But what did the centurion believe? Did the centurion believe that his servant would be healed as soon as he asked Jesus, before he even got an affirmative reply? No, it doesn't say that. The only belief he expressed was in Jesus's ability to heal - "only say the word, and my servant will be healed".

It's like the healing of the leper immediately before in Mat 8:1-4. He didn't believe that Jesus would immediately heal him as soon as he asked. No, he said "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean". He only believed that Jesus had the ability to heal, and that it was conditional upon Jesus being willing. And he was still healed.

Or the healing of the 2 blind men in Matthew 9. What did they believe?
Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.” Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”

Or the lame man at the Beautiful Gate. He simply had faith is Jesus's name, not faith that he would definitely be healed. (Acts 3:16).

i can you use Mk 11: 24 to justify what things soever you desire when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them. It' not just praying that you believe God is able. It's believing you receive WHEN you pray.

Not without the applying condition stated in 1 John 5:14 you can't. Only if it's God's will can you be certain you will have them.

But it is God's perfect will for his children to be healed and well.

No it isn't. Scripture clearly teaches that it is sometimes God's will for us to suffer.....

1 Peter 1:6-9 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

James 1:2-3 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

1 Peter 4:12-16 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing,

Rom 5:3 "we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance"

Psalm 119:67-75 - "It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees...and in faithfulness you have afflicted me."

Jesus himself prayed for his cup of suffering to be removed. But crucially he added "yet not my will, but yours be done." And of course his suffering was not removed….for our sake. (Luke 22:42)

It was not God's will to heal Lazarus. He became sick and his sisters brought the problem to Jesus, but Jesus did not heal him. It was God's will that Lazarus should die from his sickness.

It was not God's will to heal Elisha. He had "double anointing” from God, yet he developed a sickness and he died from it.

Jesus said it was God's will that the man in John 9 remained blind all his life. God had a purpose for his blindness.

Timothy was Paul's “son in the faith” yet he suffered from frequent stomach problems.

 

[Aaron112]

Timothy was Paul's “son in the faith” yet he suffered from frequent stomach problems.

Short blurb from short internet search of this :
"If you live in an area with unclean water, and you drink that water, and you aren't used to it, you are likely to have frequent stomach problems. However, if you use wine or

some other beverage with antiseptic qualities,

you can decrease your chance of getting sick. This is what Paul was telling Timothy to do."

 

[Aaron112]

And I've known lots which have said when they first became a Christian God was answering all their prayers.... years later not much of anything and they wondered why?

Is it possible they were deceived ?