I am your healer

[Guojing]

Do you have any idea what you're doing? The Holy Spirit through Paul has told the church 1 Cor 11:30 some reasons why people get sick and even die and you have the nerve to say that's not for today? Sorry but I'd really consider dialing that back.

He told the church in 1 Cor that there are gifts of healing in the Body of Christ, but the letters he wrote after Acts 28, he started leaving people sick and giving Timothy common sense medical advice.

Did he have any idea what he did?

 

[Bobber]

No, for physical healing James 5 says "You may be healed" (v16).

Oh come on. You really don't think you're not stretching out that MAY thing beyond reasonable measure? Surely you must conclude that may here means will be.

Let's look at this,
"I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. I have told you these things so that you will be filled with ..." Jn 15:11

Are we to believe MAY doesn't mean the things he told them you can't say WILL cause his joy to be in them? Surely it does! And then below,

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. But these are ...Jn 20:31

So by believing because it says may have life you can't say will have life?

So let's go back to Jm 5:16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed."

So he gave them an instruction to do and if they'd do it something would be done. They would be healed. And the way you put it SW as in.....you might be.... well look at the text. If it was the way you say you'd have no assurance by confessing your faults you could be forgiven! There therefore is no other conclusion one can make. It's not you might be healed.....IT'S YOU WILL BE. Period.

 

[swordsman1]

Oh come on. You really don't think you're not stretching out that MAY thing beyond reasonable measure? Surely you must conclude that may here means will be.

No, "may" does not mean "will"

If it means "will" here the Greek scholars who translate our bibles into English would put "will". Every bible translation has it as "may".

Even if it did say "will", the promise would still be subject to the other conditions for prayer to be answered eg 1 John 5:15. You can't take verses out of isolation from the rest of scripture like you do with Mark 11:24.

"I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. I have told you these things so that you will be filled with ..." Jn 15:11

Are we to believe MAY doesn't mean the things he told them you can't say WILL cause his joy to be in them? Surely it does!

No, that verse is not saying that joy WILL be complete. Joy would only be complete if there is nothing that else that is reigning that joy back (such as a death in the family).

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. But these are ...Jn 20:31

So by believing because it says may have life you can't say will have life?

No, simply believing that Jesus is the Messiah does not guarantee life. You have to trust him. Even the demons believe he is the Messiah.

 

[Bobber]

I completely agree with you so far. That is the kind of faith that is needed for God to heal. A simple trust that God is able to heal and will keep his promises - notably "If we ask anything according to his will, he hears us" (1 John 5:14). If you pray then you already believe that God is able to heal (or else you wouldn't be praying).

But then again you're forgetting something right? I think you should have quoted the next verse 15

"And this is the confidence that we have before Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him." 1 John 5:14

That requires FAITH. It's not just believing God is able but you must as the general rule believe that you receive when you pray. Mk 11:24. You see that reflected in verse 15 above. Do you see the already possess what you have asked of him in 1 John 5:16? That's before it manifests.

The prayer of faith believes it receives not just hopes but believes it receives when you pray and because he said the prayer of faith will bring healing what are we to conclude then? Surely it must be that IT IS God's will to heal all of his children that is in his perfect will. But people must do that which makes it possible. And we already seen that reflected in Matt 17:19 when Jesus told them they actually could have got one boy delivered.

 

[Bobber]

However, be honest, that is not the kind of faith that WoF demands. It is faith that you will definitely be healed.

If conditions are met yes. But what you call Word of Faith type believers don't believe you definitely will be healed if there's hindrances from stopping you. You yourself have even acknowledged the same.

You've said it yourself. "Whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours" is the verse you quote.

Yes it will come into manifestation if you believe that you receive it. But that doesn't mean I don't believe there can't be a variety of hindrances. All my years I've always believed that.

A morsel of doubt and you are disqualified right? Sorry but that IS the fairground bell.

Oh no, no, no is isn't. For why should you have a morsel of doubt? If your friend told you, one you trusted said they were going to pick you up at 3 and you know they're of a noble character then why should you doubt? There's NO fairground bell of struggling to achieve a belief if you simply take your friends word. And the same with us towards God. When he said Jesus bore your infirmities and carried your diseases on the cross and by his stripes you were healed why should you doubt it? No need for even a morsel of doubt. My friend FAITH is really more easier than you think.

 

[Bobber]

And this is where we differ.

Correct we differ for I believe Isaiah 53 covers a variety of things. The sin issue and the physical sickness issue.

​

But he was pierced for our transgressions;​

he was crushed for our iniquities;​

upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,​

and with his wounds we are healed.​

God does not promise healing or good health to Christians. I've already quoted verses that prove that.

But you're holding that forgiveness and physical healing are not dual blessing God has offered. The verse from Isaiah 53 you quoted stated AND...AND....with his wounds we are healed! You of course would want to claim that's spiritual healing. Problem is that way of thinking doesn't line up with any of the other scriptures.

Who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, Ps 103:3

Plus this is the scripture in Matt 8:19 where Isaiah 53 is referred to and in Mat 8:19 it was a whole number of physical afflictions that were healed.

"And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. 15And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them. 16When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses". Matt 8:14

 

[Strong in Him]

Would they have been healed if they hadn't repented I'd think not and while this was Paul in his teachings the truth of James teachings would have been known to all and Paul would have brought that forth too.

We don't even know if James had written his letter when Paul wrote to the Corinthians. So to say that his teachings "would have been known" to all, and that Paul "would have brought that forth too", IS supposition.

 

[Bobber]

We don't even know if James had written his letter when Paul wrote to the Corinthians. So to say that his teachings "would have been known" to all, and that Paul "would have brought that forth too", IS supposition.

Simple solution. What James taught Jesus had already taught. The prayer of faith that James talked about in Jm 1 and 5, is found in Mk 11:24. Mark 6:13 says as well in the gospels that the disciples would anoint people with oil to heal the sick.

 

[swordsman1]

But then again you're forgetting something right? I think you should have quoted the next verse 15

"And this is the confidence that we have before Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him." 1 John 5:14

That requires FAITH. It's not just believing God is able but you must as the general rule believe that you receive when you pray. Mk 11:24. You see that reflected in verse 15 above. Do you see the already possess what you have asked of him in 1 John 5:16? That's before it manifests.

The prayer of faith believes it receives not just hopes but believes it receives when you pray and because he said the prayer of faith will bring healing what are we to conclude then? Surely it must be that IT IS God's will to heal all of his children that is in his perfect will. But people must do that which makes it possible. And we already seen that reflected in Matt 17:19 when Jesus told them they actually could have got one boy delivered.

You are misunderstanding I John 5.

v15 says "And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him."

But he only hears us if it is his will (v14). So, providing it is his will, then of course we can 100% beleive we will have it. That is the basis by which we can say Mark 11:24 is a valid promise. As I've said previously, if it is God's will then we can 100% beleive we WILL receive it. But 1 John 5:14 comes first - IF it is his will. And we won't know if it God's will until we get a positive result.

You can't put the cart before the horse and rearrange the words of 1 John 5 to say "If we beleive we already possess it, then he will grant it". That is NOT what it says. That is the whole WoF fallacy - turning God into a genie who must grant our every wish providing we don't doubt.

 

[swordsman1]

If conditions are met yes. But what you call Word of Faith type believers don't believe you definitely will be healed if there's hindrances from stopping you. You yourself have even acknowledged the same.

But providing there is no hindrance (ie. no unconfessed sin), the kind of faith you WoF's demand is the fairground bell - faith that you will definitely be healed.

Oh no, no, no is isn't. For why should you have a morsel of doubt? If your friend told you, one you trusted said they were going to pick you up at 3 and you know they're of a noble character then why should you doubt? There's NO fairground bell of struggling to achieve a belief if you simply take your friends word. And the same with us towards God. When he said Jesus bore your infirmities and carried your diseases on the cross and by his stripes you were healed why should you doubt it? No need for even a morsel of doubt. My friend FAITH is really more easier than you think.

Of course people are going to have doubts. Imagine a Christian with no unconfessed sin who has been diagnosed with advanced terminal cancer, their body is wracked with pain, and the doctors say they only have weeks to live. You expect them to say to themselves, "God has promised me healing. These doctors are wrong, the cancer WILL miraculously disappear, and I WILL be well again". Even if there was such a promise, when their body is screaming at them to the contrary and they know they are at death's door then of course they are going to doubt. And when they die, the reason you give is they did not have enough faith. They didn't hit the fairground bell.

 

[Bobber]

No, "may" does not mean "will"

If it means "will" here the Greek scholars who translate our bibles into English would put "will". Every bible translation has it as "may".

Even if it did say "will", the promise would still be subject to the other conditions for prayer to be answered

So let's go to what the translators were working with when it came up to Jm 5:16 . It did not even say "may be healed" So one shouldn't take too seriously hanging their hat of the word may to keep themselves in a place of doubt and unbelief that it doesn't mean he will. Go to the greek. It was one Greek word.....iaomai

iaomai: to heal
Original Word: ἰάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: iaomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-ah'-om-ahee)
Definition: to heal
Usage: I heal, generally of the physical, sometimes of spiritual, disease.

Then over in Luke 7:7 we read, That is why I did not consider myself worthy to come to You. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed."

So do you know what the Greek word is for "will be healed" Surprise, surprise..... iaomai ) That's true of Matt 15:28

Then Jesus took hold of the man, healed him, and sent him on his way. Lk 14:5
Healed him is the Greek word IAOMAI as well.

 

[swordsman1]

But you're holding that forgiveness and physical healing are not dual blessing God has offered. The verse from Isaiah 53 you quoted stated AND...AND....with his wounds we are healed! You of course would want to claim that's spiritual healing.

No, you cannot separate "he was pierced for our transgressions" from "by his wounds we are healed". They are part of the same sentence and refer to the same thing. It says OUR SINS are what he was wounded for, and that is what we are healed of.

Problem is that way of thinking doesn't line up with any of the other scriptures.

Who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, Ps 103:3

Psalm 103:1-5 is clearly referring to the life to come. Or are all old Christians today jumping around like teenagers because their "youth is renewed like the eagle’s"

Obviously it cannot be for today when God clearly DOES NOT heal ALL our diseases and Christians often die of disease.

Plus this is the scripture in Matt 8:19 where Isaiah 53 is referred to and in Mat 8:19 it was a whole number of physical afflictions that were healed.

"And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. 15And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them. 16When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses". Matt 8:14

Matt 8:17 does not quote Isaiah 53:5. You are putting words into Matthew's mouth.

 

[swordsman1]

So let's go to what the translators were working with when it came up to Jm 5:16 . It did not even say "may be healed" So one shouldn't take too seriously hanging their hat of the word may to keep themselves in a place of doubt and unbelief that it doesn't mean he will. Go to the greek. It was one Greek word.....iaomai

iaomai: to heal
Original Word: ἰάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: iaomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-ah'-om-ahee)
Definition: to heal
Usage: I heal, generally of the physical, sometimes of spiritual, disease.

Then over in Luke 7:7 we read, That is why I did not consider myself worthy to come to You. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed."

So do you know what the Greek word is for "will be healed" Surprise, surprise..... iaomai ) That's true of Matt 15:28

Then Jesus took hold of the man, healed him, and sent him on his way. Lk 14:5
Healed him is the Greek word IAOMAI as well.

I'm not sure what you're driving at here.

I agree that heal in James 5:16 is physical healing.

But EVERY bible translation says "may be healed", not "will be healed".

Are they all wrong?

 

[Bobber]

Of course people are going to have doubts. Imagine a Christian with no unconfessed sin who has been diagnosed with advanced terminal cancer, their body is wracked with pain, and the doctors say they only have weeks to live.

Ok let's talk about this. With such serious trials like this I know what it's like. The doctor gives one such bad news and one feels floored. One can be so troubled they can barely speak. I get that I understand that. I sympathize with anyone in that situation. I had a similar battle like that just a few months ago which I'll maybe share in one day ahead. So you have what God's word says about healing though what God will do if one walks by faith and not by sight, and Jesus bore your infirmities and carried your diseases, and the pray of faith shall save the sick and the Lord will raise them up.

Now am I saying one wouldn't have doubts? Let me put it this way, the devil, Satan in a situation like that will seek to collapse one down into a place of despair. Every promise of God in regard to healing seems so small and insignificant and one is tempted to think of them as mere words. That can be true of other things to, like seeking to believe God has forgiven you when you've sinned. A sense of guilt or condemnation can come upon one so heavily by Satan one is tempted to think forgiveness isn't theirs! But it is! And so is healing.

One must however at times FIGHT the fight of Faith but it's not a bad fight the Bible calls it the Good Fight of Faith. It's a good fight for it's a fight we will win or can win! Important lesson....doubts coming to your mind doesn't mean you have them. ;Yes they may be like an armed man A GIANT doesn't matter. You resist them and declare the word of God and this MUST at times be done with all tenacity! One can see this in Pilgrims Progress book to when Christian and Hope were in Doubting Castle. He rose up with the promises of God and overcame them! Is it easy at times? NO! It wasn't easy either when Paul and Silas in Acts 16 had their back beaten and were locked up in a prison.

They rose up singing and shouting the praises of God and we know by faith they did this loudly and by faith they acted full of joy for the Bible states the other prisoners' heard them. That FAITH that determination caused God to shake the prison by an earthquake and eventually they were set FREE! Satan tells the afflicted one you're done! It's over! But we're to trust in the Lord with all of our hearts and lean not to our own understanding! It get it. At times our own understanding our natural mind feels absolutely overwhelmed.

No mater how hard that is the scriptures say we can separate the two.....our heart and our natural realm understanding. If not he wouldn't have said trust in the Lord with all of our heart and lean not to our own understanding. Prov 3:5 If we couldn't do that then God is a liar. If he said we can trust the Lord his word with all of our heart....THEN WE CAN. So what happens if we do all that faith stuff and it doesn't happen and we die. Well let me just say I'd rather by far go out of this life and enter heaven and have God say well at least you were seeking to function in faith.
He might say but you missed it on this point and you missed it on that....but at least you tried! I wouldn't want him to say to me that you didn't even try to walk by faith and not by sight.

 

[Bobber]

I'm not sure what you're driving at here.

I agree that heal in James 5:16 is physical healing.

But EVERY bible translation says "may be healed", not "will be healed".

Didn't I tell you. May be healed isn't in the Greek text.

It's IAOMAI
iaomai: to heal
Original Word: ἰάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: iaomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-ah'-om-ahee)
Definition: to heal
Usage: I heal, generally of the physical, sometimes of spiritual, disease.

And the very word iaomai they've put down as will be, or shall be. That's what the Greek word allows for. Matt 15:28, Lk 14:5. Luke 7:7 plus more. So you can't say the Greek word the same thing used in Jm 5:15 doesn't allow for the same thing.

 

[Bobber]

You expect them to say to themselves, "God has promised me healing.

Yes I do. Even though it can at times be very difficult to do. And if can be very difficult for some to believe they're forgiven too. But you just do it. And when you know and decide once and for all that God is of a good, kind, noble character who of course will keep his word your faith isn't like the hit the bell at the amusement park. It just isn't.

 

[Strong in Him]

Simple solution. What James taught Jesus had already taught. The prayer of faith that James talked about in Jm 1 and 5, is found in Mk 11:24. Mark 6:13 says as well in the gospels that the disciples would anoint people with oil to heal the sick.

I'm sorry but that is definitely reading into the text.
How is;

Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up.

the same as;

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

In the first one it is the elders of the church who pray.
In Mark 6 there is no church and it is the individuals themselves who are praying

It wasn't that long ago that you said:

But you're under the impression that a minister can just lay hands on a believer and God will heal them regardless as to what the other person is believing. Generally speaking that's not how it works.

James 5 doesn't say anything about the other person having to believe, or have faith.
If you read James 5:15 it is the prayer, offered by the elders in faith, which raises a sick person up. If you read Mark 11:24 it is the person who is praying who needs to have the faith.
I don't see how both can be true.

If someone is praying, as per Mark 11:24, and they receive what they have prayed for (healing is not mentioned here), they could say that they received because THEY believed. The elders of the church have not been involved. James 5 wasn't needed.
If a sick person calls the elders (or equivalent) of their church to pray for them, as per James 5, and the prayer of the elders heals the sick person, it doesn't matter what that person believed, or even was thinking about. The sick person did not have to believe as Mark says, because it was the prayer of the elders which brought healing. I read a testimony of a mother who, on several occasions, took her sick baby to a healer for prayer. The baby didn't believe anything, and most of the time he was asleep, but God healed.
There are many accounts in the Gospels of people being healed without their having to declare faith and irrespective of what they believed, or were thinking at the time.

 

[swordsman1]

Ok let's talk about this. With such serious trials like this I know what it's like. The doctor gives one such bad news and one feels floored. One can be so troubled they can barely speak. I get that I understand that. I sympathize with anyone in that situation. I had a similar battle like that just a few months ago which I'll maybe share in one day ahead. So you have what God's word says about healing though what God will do if one walks by faith and not by sight, and Jesus bore your infirmities and carried your diseases, and the pray of faith shall save the sick and the Lord will raise them up.

Now am I saying one wouldn't have doubts? Let me put it this way, the devil, Satan in a situation like that will seek to collapse one down into a place of despair. Every promise of God in regard to healing seems so small and insignificant and one is tempted to think of them as mere words. That can be true of other things to, like seeking to believe God has forgiven you when you've sinned. A sense of guilt or condemnation can come upon one so heavily by Satan one is tempted to think forgiveness isn't theirs! But it is! And so is healing.

One must however at times FIGHT the fight of Faith but it's not a bad fight the Bible calls it the Good Fight of Faith. It's a good fight for it's a fight we will win or can win! Important lesson....doubts coming to your mind doesn't mean you have them. ;Yes they may be like an armed man A GIANT doesn't matter. You resist them and declare the word of God and this MUST at times be done with all tenacity! One can see this in Pilgrims Progress book to when Christian and Hope were in Doubting Castle. He rose up with the promises of God and overcame them! Is it easy at times? NO! It wasn't easy either when Paul and Silas in Acts 16 had their back beaten and were locked up in a prison.

They rose up singing and shouting the praises of God and we know by faith they did this loudly and by faith they acted full of joy for the Bible states the other prisoners' heard them. That FAITH that determination caused God to shake the prison by an earthquake and eventually they were set FREE! Satan tells the afflicted one you're done! It's over! But we're to trust in the Lord with all of our hearts and lean not to our own understanding! It get it. At times our own understanding our natural mind feels absolutely overwhelmed.

No mater how hard that is the scriptures say we can separate the two.....our heart and our natural realm understanding. If not he wouldn't have said trust in the Lord with all of our heart and lean not to our own understanding. Prov 3:5 If we couldn't do that then God is a liar. If he said we can trust the Lord his word with all of our heart....THEN WE CAN. So what happens if we do all that faith stuff and it doesn't happen and we die. Well let me just say I'd rather by far go out of this life and enter heaven and have God say well at least you were seeking to function in faith.
He might say but you missed it on this point and you missed it on that....but at least you tried! I wouldn't want him to say to me that you didn't even try to walk by faith and not by sight.

That all sounds very rousing.. "fight your doubts", "declare the word," etc. But the truth is the bible never says you must have that kind of faith. Out of the 36 healings in the New Testament, only 1 person had faith like that. Others only had faith in Jesus's ABILITY to heal. So it is clearly not true that you must believe you have your healing in order to be healed.

 

[swordsman1]

Didn't I tell you. May be healed isn't in the Greek text.

It's IAOMAI
iaomai: to heal
Original Word: ἰάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: iaomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-ah'-om-ahee)
Definition: to heal
Usage: I heal, generally of the physical, sometimes of spiritual, disease.

And the very word iaomai they've put down as will be, or shall be. That's what the Greek word allows for. Matt 15:28, Lk 14:5. Luke 7:7 plus more. So you can't say the Greek word the same thing used in Jm 5:15 doesn't allow for the same thing.

Ok I see. Yes there isn't a Greek word for "may". Nor is there a word for "will". However we derive those meanings from the variations in the form of the Greek verb.

ἰαθῆτε means "may be healed"
Eg
biblehub.com/interlinear/james/5-16.htm

ἰαθήσεται means "will be healed"
Eg.
biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/8-8.htm

 

[Guojing]

Yes I do. Even though it can at times be very difficult to do. And if can be very difficult for some to believe they're forgiven too. But you just do it. And when you know and decide once and for all that God is of a good, kind, noble character who of course will keep his word your faith isn't like the hit the bell at the amusement park. It just isn't.

Curious, when you are sick, you never ever thought on relying on what Paul taught you in Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 instead?