Did Abraham observe the Sabbath day?

[GDL]

IN what way does God tell someone "please don't observe my Holy Sabbath" in your pov?

Asked and answered multiple times. See Matt12:5 and explain Jesus' question. Did the Priests profane/desecrate Sabbath or is this question hyperbole or something else? IOW, ask Jesus.

 

[GDL]

The day before the Sabbath, twice as much manna fell, and the Lord told the children of Israel to gather enough for two days. On the Sabbath day they did not receive any manna. Yeshua and His followers were only eating and not gathering.

Thanks for posting reference to actual Scripture.

NKJ Ex16:26-30 "Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, there will be none." 27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 "See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

• Do you see the underlined as normative, normative for a time. not to be taken literally - IOW - contextually they could go out but not to get provision, a tightening of the reins (so to speak) since some had disobeyed, an enforced rest, or???

Where do you go in Scripture to say that going out and picking and crushing and eating grain on Sabbath is not profaning Sabbath, or do you think it does profane Sabbath but was OK because the disciples in Matt12 were with Jesus doing God's work, or???

 

[GDL]

Saints, a lot of the acrymony, bad feelings, and tension is completely unnecessary if we
all would adhere to the apostle's fellowship. It really is not all that difficult.

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Romans 14:5)

Actually, this is comical in a way. A proper appeal to fellowship by posting a verse that is at the center of the disagreement.

Can you work in the "not anyone" verses also?

In all seriousness, please pardon my smile.

 

[oikonomia]

Actually, this is comical in a way. A proper appeal to fellowship by posting a verse that is at the center of the disagreement.

Can you work in the "not anyone" verses also?

In all seriousness, please pardon my smile.

Waving a red flag in front of a bull?

Well, we should see that the problems around strong personal convictions is not new.
Paul spends chapters on more indivdual spiritual experience and growth.

He is wise enough as a "master builder" to know divisions in the church will be self defeating of everything else.
Some things we can be general about. We can receive each other. They are less than absolutely critical
issues. They do not effect the basics of the faith as he has elaborated in previous chapters. We can accomodate each other.

 

[GDL]

Waving a red flag in front of a bull?

Well, we should see that the problems around strong personal convictions is not new.
Paul spends chapters on more indivdual spiritual experience and growth.

He is wise enough as a "master builder" to know divisions in the church will be self defeating of everything else.
Some things we can be general about. We can receive each other. They are less than absolutely critical
issues. They do not effect the basics of the faith as he has elaborated in previous chapters. We can accomodate each other.

Yes. Smiling again. Isn't there a Scripture that says a little levity leavens the whole batch?

Much agreed and appreciated.

It's really quite amazing to consider the current level of division to be ultimately self-defeating. The Eph4 corporate unity in understanding and maturity is something that seems so impossible in the here and now realm. Once again, He amazes, and I look forward.

 

[oikonomia]

Yes. Smiling again. Isn't there a Scripture that says a little levity leavens the whole batch?

I think that is Hezekiah 3:16.

Much agreed and appreciated.

It's really quite amazing to consider the current level of division to be ultimately self-defeating. The Eph4 corporate unity in understanding and maturity is something that seems so impossible in the here and now realm. Once again, He amazes, and I look forward.

 

[BobRyan]

I'll reword this to be a bit broader and not have Jesus' question about profaning/desecration in the background:

If the 4th Word/Statement is God's Eternal Righteous Moral Character, then why does God provide for some to not observe it?

IN what way does God tell someone "please don't observe my Holy Sabbath" in your pov?

Or do you mean something like "the Bible says not to make graven images, to bow down before them , to promise to serve them... yet some Christians do that very thing and we don't think they are all lost for doing it --- so maybe that commandment is not in one of God's moral laws"?

Or is it something like "there were golden images of angels on the ark of the Covenant and yet God does not consider that to be a violation of the commandment against making graven images...so maybe that means the command against graven images in not one of God's moral laws"???

Asked and answered multiple times. See Matt12:5 and explain Jesus' question. Did the Priests profane/desecrate Sabbath or is this question hyperbole or something else?

Keep asking the question we all know the answer to? again? To see the same answer posted again?

I don't blame you for wanting to see my answer again -- I also like it.

===========================
-- did Jews know that the priests were commissioned by God to lead out in worship services every Sabbath -- even at Sinai and were not charged by God or Moses with "Sabbath breaking"? -- we all know that they knew that.


Did Jesus claim that Priests should have been charged with Sabbath breaking - since Sinai? WE all know that Jesus did not say that.
This is why I say that "weak arguments" only last about 2 minutes.


Jesus' point that in context the Priests are not actually sinning/breaking God's Law by leading out in worship services even though they are in fact "doing their work" on Sabbath - comes as a revelation/surprise -- to no one.


To keep circling back to this AS IF some discovery/change/defect-in-Sabbath was discovered by admitting that Priests lead out in worship on Sabbath -- so not helping your case in the least.



how is that even a little bit confusing? Give us some answer on that one.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm going to cherry-pick (or grain-pick or darnel pick) through your posts. To elaborate, I'm not going to read them in entirety There's simply too much

I keep calling that "skim past the details" the sign of a "weak argument" then you keep admitting you are in fact doing that very thing.

nice.

 

[BobRyan]

It's quite an assertion that men who live and rule by oral law tradition fully understood God's Law, its structure, its ultimate intent

They did not have to be all-knowing or omniscient to get the glaringly obvious point that priests leading out in worship on Sabbath as God directed at Sinai were not engaged in a form of rebellion against God (as if leading out in worship on Sabbath were a sin) - nor did God ever claim that leading out in worship is an act against His Sabbath -- as BOTH sides already know (which is why you never see and serious Bible scholarship going down that road)

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Thanks for posting reference to actual Scripture.

NKJ Ex16:26-30 "Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, there will be none." 27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 "See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

• Do you see the underlined as normative, normative for a time. not to be taken literally - IOW - contextually they could go out but not to get provision, a tightening of the reins (so to speak) since some had disobeyed, an enforced rest, or???

Where do you go in Scripture to say that going out and picking and crushing and eating grain on Sabbath is not profaning Sabbath, or do you think it does profane Sabbath but was OK because the disciples in Matt12 were with Jesus doing God's work, or???

He did NOT want them to go out and TRY to gather more manna, because in CONTEXT some had already done that. How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? AND this was BEFORE Sinai. Where do you go that says it does? Kindling a fire and gathering wood to do so is prohibited. Cooking and work is prohibited. In Nehemiah, we learn of a number of Shabbat infractions that the people in Judah were accused of committing: pressing wine, carrying grains and other fruits into Jerusalem, and selling food. So no buying or selling. Isaiah says no striking of bargains. FYI, borders of fields were left uncut for the poor to glean for food.

 

[oikonomia]

I read this a couple of times and enjoyed it.

I think the Sabbath signifies two things really:

1.) God has a purpose that when attained gives Him satisfaction, rest, fulfillment.
2.) Man also should be (and indeed only CAN be) satisfied with that which satisfies God.

God rests on the seventh day because everything is in order according to His plan. All is "very good."
When God is not satisfied there is NO WAY that man can be satisfied.

Man's rest (in every sense) is in entering into God's eternal purpose.
I think of the meaning of the Sabbath throughout the whole bible in this light.

Brought forward again.

 

[GDL]

He did NOT want them to go out and TRY to gather more manna, because in CONTEXT some had already done that. How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? AND this was BEFORE Sinai. Where do you go that says it does? Kindling a fire and gathering wood to do so is prohibited. Cooking and work is prohibited. In Nehemiah, we learn of a number of Shabbat infractions that the people in Judah were accused of committing: pressing wine, carrying grains and other fruits into Jerusalem, and selling food. So no buying or selling. Isaiah says no striking of bargains. FYI, borders of fields were left uncut for the poor to glean for food.

Thanks.

So, no specific mention of picking and eating grain on Sabbath that I can see so far.

Thanks for the gleaning reference. I'm familiar with it. I looked through Ruth where her gleaning was mentioned several times but see no mention of any Sabbath gleaning and her gleaning seems more gathering than snacking. Do you think gleaning for the poor is applicable to Matt12 or is Deut23:25 better?

 

[GDL]

I keep calling that "skim past the details" the sign of a "weak argument" then you keep admitting you are in fact doing that very thing.

nice.

This is a good place to at least let you know that I see no reason to respond to your posts. Skimming past the details of Scripture is not my normal practice. Skimming through your posts for something meaningful IMO is simply some wisdom. The wiser thing would probably be to cease even the skimming of them. We'll see...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Do you think gleaning for the poor is applicable to Matt12 or is Deut23:25 better?

Might be the same thing. "Though He was rich, yet for your sake, He became poor so that you through His poverty might become rich." Some of His followers were called "Ebyonim" or the poor.

 

[HIM]

.

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Romans 14:5)

That text doesn't say as you think or wish in respect to the Sabbath.

The context of the passage isn't the Lords will in our lives but arguing over our own opinions and surmising. See verse 1 and 2 which verse 5 is in context to. Nowhere does it state in the Torah we are to only eat Vegetables or herbs. They were arguing over opinions. As it states in verse 1. Which sets the context.

Rom 14:1 (NET) Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions.
Rom 14:2 One person believes in eating everything, but the weak person eats only vegetables.

 

[GDL]

Beyond being a sign of the temporary and now replaced Mosaic Covenant, was the weekly Sabbath what is called by some who categorize laws a ceremonial law?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Beyond being a sign of the temporary and now replaced Mosaic Covenant, was the weekly Sabbath what is called by some who categorize laws a ceremonial law?

God called it a commandment and identifies them as a unit as “My commandments” i.e. the commandments of God Exo 20 Exo 20:6 and was personally written with His own finger like He did all His other commandments in this unit of Ten. This is God’s work His testimony that no one is above Exo 32:16 Exo 31:18. God placed the Ten inside the ark of the covenant, not outside so your argument is not with man.

 

[GDL]

Might be the same thing. "Though He was rich, yet for your sake, He became poor so that you through His poverty might become rich." Some of His followers were called "Ebyonim" or the poor.

Might be is about how I concluded not having put much thought into it. The info re: the poor also crossed my mind. I did note the Hebrew for the gleaning can mean remnants and the Greek basically means to fall. I did also note that in Ruth she was gleaning behind the reapers and Boaz set things up, so she came away with an ephah - so about 30lbs as seems to be the measure. May or may not be any help for Matt12. Seems a side-track to the greater issue and context of Matt12 anyway.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Might be is about how I concluded not having put much thought into it. The info re: the poor also crossed my mind. I did note the Hebrew for the gleaning can mean remnants and the Greek basically means to fall. I did also note that in Ruth she was gleaning behind the reapers and Boaz set things up, so she came away with an ephah - so about 30lbs as seems to be the measure. May or may not be any help for Matt12. Seems a side-track to the greater issue and context of Matt12 anyway.

I'm surprised anyone would consider Mat 12 an issue- I know the Pharisees did, but Jesus said clearly they were guiltless Mat 12:7- this really should be the end of the discussion if we are to believe His Word. Jesus did not go on to say we do not need to keep the Sabbath commandment- Jesus said If you love Me- keep My commandments which of course includes the Sabbath commandment He wrote and He spoke and said was made for mankind and will be kept by the saints until He comes back Rev 14:12 and for all eternity Isa 66:22-23 says our Lord and Savior. Amen!

 

[oikonomia]

That text doesn't say as you think or wish in respect to the Sabbath.

Yes it refers to any Sabbath, any special day, even your favorite one.

The context of the passage isn't the Lords will in our lives but arguing over our own opinions and surmising.

Its rather simple. And it is very much like the "Sermon on the Mount" in Matthew.
The kingdom people should be strict towards themselves yet merciful towards others.

The kingdom people should realize to whom thier ultimate accountability is -to Christ.

Who are you who judge another’s household servant? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will be made to stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.(Rom. 14:4)

Compare:

Do not judge, that you be not judged.
For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you.(Matt. 7:1,2)

See verse 1 and 2 which verse 5 is in context to. Nowhere does it state in the Torah we are to only eat Vegetables or herbs. They were arguing over opinions. As it states in verse 1. Which sets the context.

It doesn't matter where the Torah instructed or the Torah did not instruct.
This is forcing something into Paul's advice to artificially convey your own preferences.

Your practice in diet,- be persuaded in your own heart and receive in the church life others who may differ in practice.
The same principle applies to keeping a special day - whether Torah based or non-Torah based.

Rom 14:1 (NET) Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions.

That is right. In the assembly life, like a family, there will be some stronger in faith and some weaker.
All should be GROWING. Not all are at one time at the same level of strength of faith.
So the churching people must be loving, tolerant, and non-judgmental of each other.

Rom 14:2 One person believes in eating everything, but the weak person eats only vegetables.

As I said before. To establish the principle Paul uses two representative examples.
One of diet is given. And another of special days is given.

"Context of fasting " arguments and "But the Torah didn't say this or that" arguments are SDA's own flimsy rationales.
The first one to suffer because of this special munipulating of the text, is yourself.