Did Abraham observe the Sabbath day?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You speak of the "context" of fasting because of what occupies your thought.
This is too subjective. This is too in favor of what you want the chapter to say.

If you can restrict the subject matter to fasting, that (you think)
furnishes your ground to exclude the 7th day Sabbath from his representative list.

The list is of practices not to be divisive and judgemental over in the healthy harmonious church life.

From Romans 14:1 through 15:13 the theme is Christians receiving each other.
He has to begin his examples somewhere. It happens that he first mentions those weak in faith
who insist in only eating vegetables.

Now him who is weak in faith receive, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his considerations.
One believes that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables. (Rom 14:1,2)

From practices in eating he then goes on to his next example, under that same principle of inclusiveness - regarding days as special.

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (v. 5)

Don't artifically restrict the "context" to just fasting.
Rather notice how both his examples are under the same theme - not judging one another, being persauded in yourself,
not being factious and divisive over your practice.

LOL, how is that??? It literally says EATING and FOOD! Jews had weekly days of fasting. This is fact. You must know very little regarding 2nd Temple Judaism and early Church history. The controversy was over the days of fasting. I exclude the Sabbath because it IS excluded. No one fasts on Shabbat. Oy vey!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I answered your question about "WHO WHERE THEY??"

Anyone is who they not only WERE but are still - ANYONE.

This I say that no one may delude you with persuasive speech. (Col.2:4) "No one" is anyone.

Beware that no one carries you off as spoil through his philosophy. . . (v.8) "No one" is anyone.

Let no one defraud you by judging you unworthy of your prize, (v. 18) "No one" is anyone.

We don't need you to claim you have the inside story on the identities of "no one."

That is NOT an answer, that is sidestepping.

 

[HIM]

GDL,

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Rom. 14:5)

All one has to know is that "a day" means any day.
Persuasve sounding special pleading to exempt a certain day not withstanding.

"A day" means that any day qualifies.

All one has to know is it isn't any day because the context of the passage isn't the Lords will in our lives but arguing over our own opinions and surmising. See verse 1 and 2 again. In reading How do we know? Because no where does it state in the Torah we are to only eat Vegetables or herbs and verse 1 which sets the context outright tells us it is about opinions .

Rom 14:1 (NET) Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions.
Rom 14:2 One person believes in eating everything, but the weak person eats only vegetables.

 

[HIM]

Moses wrote the book of Genesis and tells us in Gen 2:1-3 that the Sabbath was set apart as a holy day on day 7 of creation week.

God speaks the TEN from Sinai and in Ex 20:11 also points to the Gen 2:1-3 event as the origin for the holy Sabbath

Christ does not say "Sabbath was made for Israel" in Mark 2:27 - He says it was made "for mankind".

In Deut 5:22 we are told that the TEN were spoken by God Himself (not Moses) and "HE added no more" - so the Sabbath is in the unit of Law that James 2 does not allow to be split up.


The nation covenant was made with Israel not their fathers.

By contrast "The commandments of God" matter to all mankind according to Paul in 1 Cor 7:19

However it was always a sin to "take God's name in vain" even though that commandment can't be found in the book of Genesis.

Deut 5 is not a rewrite of the TEN given in Ex 20 over forty years earlier. It is a summary given at the end of Moses' life where Moses reminds them that God spoke the TEN at Sinai - "and added no more" Deut 5:22.

Nor is there a command to Egypt to tell them not to take God's name in vain.

Is 56:6-8 the gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before me to worship"

Some people think that Egyptians are part of the group "mankind".

All of the TEN Commandments are prefaced with "God brought you out of Egypt" in Ex 20:1-2, that did not delete the command that said not to take God's name in vain.

Sure, but it did not command anyone to observe it.

He didn't have too.
Many have said there is no commandment to keep the Sabbath prior to the giving of the commandment on Mt. Sinai. However you will see that it was not needed to be commanded. Romans 1:18,19, and 20 tell us the invisible things were clearly seen in respect ungodliness and unrighteousness from the creation of the world so we are without excuse. But that is not all. There is more. Genesis 1:26 tells us how. Most translations say that we are made in God’s image and likeness. But the text actually says more in the Hebrew
The words likeness and image are actually compound words, בְּ·צַלְמֵ֖·נ"in our image move" and בְּ דְמוּתֵ֑·נוּ "in our likeness move" is what God says there. The prefix כִּ meaning in and the suffix נוּ meaning move. And צַלְמֵ֖ meaning image. With דְמוּתֵ֑ translating to likeness. In other words when Adam and Eve were made they were made in God’s image and likeness to move. So when God rested they rested on the Seventh Day because they were one with God moving in His image and likeness. Adam and Eve fell away from this when they sinned. But Jesus reestablished to its utmost. For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. With man this was impossible but with God all things are possible. Him in us, us in Him that the world might believe. For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. John 17, Philippians 2:13. Below are verse references and excerpts from Hebrew Lexicons which are in-depth dictionaries so you can see the proof for yourself. God bless!


Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Gen 1:26 וַ·יֹּ֣אמֶר said אֱלֹהִ֔ים And God נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה Let us make אָדָ֛ם man בְּ·צַלְמֵ֖·נוּ in our image move כִּ·דְמוּתֵ֑·נוּ after our likeness move וְ·יִרְדּוּ֩ and let them have dominion בִ·דְגַ֨ת over the fish הַ·יָּ֜ם of the sea וּ·בְ·ע֣וֹף and over the fowl הַ·שָּׁמַ֗יִם of the air וּ·בַ·בְּהֵמָה֙ and over the cattle וּ·בְ·כָל־ all הָ·אָ֔רֶץ and over all the earth וּ·בְ·כָל־ every הָ·רֶ֖מֶשׂ and over every creeping thing הָֽ·רֹמֵ֥שׂ that creepeth עַל־ on הָ·אָֽרֶץ׃ upon the earth

First נֵד From the Gesineus Lexicon
H5110 - GES5023
נוּד
(compare cogn. נָדַד)-
(1) to be moved, to be agitated (Arab, ناد Med. Waw id.), used of a reed shaken by the wind, 1Kin 14:15, hence to wander, to be a fugitive, Jer 4:1, Gen 4:12, 14 Psa 56:9, to flee, 11:1, Jer 49:30. Figuratively, Isa 17:11, נֵד קָצִיר “the harvest has fled” [“but see נֵד ” which some in this place take as the subst.].
(2) Followed by a dat. to pity, to commiserate (as signified by a motion of the head, compare Job 16:4, 16:5,); hence-(a) to comfort the afflicted, followed by לְ of pers. 2:1, 42:11, Isa 51:19, Jer 16:5.-(b) to grieve, to lament, to deplore the dead, 22:10.
Hiphil הֵנִיד.-
(1) causat. to cause to wander, to expel, 2Kin 21:8, Psa 36:12.
(2) i.q. Kal, to agitate, to nod, wag with the head (בְּרֹאשׁ), Jer 18:16.
Hophal, part. מֻנָד 2Sam 23:6, shaken out, thrust out; but R. b. Asher reads מֻנָּד, from the root נָדַד.
Hithpael הִתְנוֹדֵד.-
(1) to be moved to and fro, to wag, Isa 24:20, to move the head, Jer 48:27.
(2) to lament, Jer 31:18.
Derived nouns, מָנוֹד, נִיד, נוֹד [and in Thes. נֵד].

Secondly בְּ from the same Lexicon.
GES855
בְּ
(A) pr. in, with ablat. Gr. ἐν. Specially-
(1) in, pr. of place [“which might be more fully and precisely expressed by בְּתֹךְ, בְּקֶרֶב”], as בָּעִיר in the city, בַּבַּיִת in the house, בַּבּוֹר in the pit, בָּאָרֶץ in the land or province, בַּאֲשֶׁר in (a place) which = where; then used of time: בַּשָּׁנָה הַהִיא Judg 10:8, בְּרֵאשִׁית Gen 1:1, comp. בְּטֶרֶם, בְּעוֹר; also of the condition in which we are: בְּשָׁלוֹם 1Sam 29:7, and, in the later Hebrew, it is even prefixed pleon. to adverbs: בְּכֹה, בְּכֵן. By a peculiar idiom of language, it is used of the fountain, origin, and material whence any thing is drawn, is made, or comes forth; as-(a) in the phrase, “to drink in a cup,” i.e. to drink what is in the cup; for “out of the cup” (like the French “boire dans une tasse;” Gr. ἐν χρυσῷ, ἐν ποτηρίοιζ πίνειν, Xenoph. Anab. vi. 1, § 4); Gen 44:5, Amos 6:6, comp. Chald. Dan 5:2.-(b) of the material, as the German eine Münze in Gold, ein Stoff in Wolle, in Grz gegoffen. 2Chr 9:18, כֶּבֶשׂ בַּזָּהָב “a footstool of gold.” Exod 38:8, Lev 13:52, 1Kin 7:14, Ezek 7:20. Metaph.-(c) יָרַע בְּ to know by any thing, Exod 7:17.
(2) When it refers to a multitude, in the midst of which one is, i.q. among, in. Lam 1:3, בַּגּוֹיִם “among the nations.” 2Kin 18:5, בְּכָל־מַלְבֵי יְהוּרָה. 2Sam 15:31, “Ahithophel is בַּקּשְׁרִים among the conspirators.” Psa 118:7, יְהֹוָה בְּעֹזְרַי “Jehovah is among my helpers,” i.e. is my helper (comp. Lat. in magnis viris est habendus); Job 15:10, Jer 6:18. Song 1:8, הַיָּפָה בַּנָּשִׁים “fair (fairest) among women.” Lam 1:1, Josh 14:15, comp. Luke 1:25, 28, 42. Specially it signifies a part excepted from a whole number (as מִן No. 1). Psa 139:16, “my days were determined וְלֹא אֶחָד בָּהֶם when as yet not one among them (of them) existed.” Exod 14:28. 1Sam 11:11, “two בָּם of them;” Lev 26:36, Deut 1:35. Hence, when used with some verbs, it shews that they refer to only a part of the predicate; as הִכָּה בְּ to smite (several) of them, to cause a slaughter among enemies (different from הִכָּה with an acc. to smite them), 2Sam 23:10, הָרַג בְּ Psa 78:31, comp. נָשָׂא בְּ Job 7:13, בָּנָה בְּ, an etwas bauen, to build on, Zech 6:15, בְּ, שָׁתָה, אָכַל Prov 9:5.

 

[GDL]

I am sorry you think doing God's work on the Sabbath is desecrating the 4th commandment.

I'm simply reading the words of Jesus Christ. I am sorry you disregard His words. Don't you think it better to try to explain why He uses such words and makes such statements?

NKJ Matt12:5 "Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?​

​

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)​

​

[BDAG] βεβηλόω​

• βεβηλόω fut. βεβηλώσω LXX; 1 aor. ἐβεβήλωσα. Pass.: aor. ἐβεβηλώθην LXX; pf. 3 pl. βεβήλωνται 1 Macc 3:51; ptc. βεβηλωμένος LXX. (s. βέβηλος; Heliod. 2, 25; 10, 36; oft. LXX; Test12Patr, Just., Hesychius, Suda) to cause someth. highly revered to become identified with the commonplace, violate sanctity, desecrate, profane the Sabbath (2 Esdr 23:17; Ezk 20:13; 1 Macc 1:43, 45 al. Opp. φυλάσσειν τ. σαββ. Is 56:2) Mt 12:5; the sanctuary (Ezk 28:18; 2 Macc 8:2) Ac 24:6; God’s name (Lev 18:21; 21:6 al.) Hs 8, 6, 2 (cod. A for βλασφημήσωσιν τὸν νόμον).—DELG s.v. βέβηλος. TW. Spicq.​

NKJ Exodus 31:14 `You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes (same word in LXX) it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.​

​

I guess the first couple questions would be:

• Why does Jesus use such language to describe the priests' activities?
• If Sabbath has the status you apply to it, then why did God have it desecrated by some and hold them blameless?
• What would answer to such questions teach us about Sabbath?

I'm going to review some of your work in parts. It's difficult to keep track of these lengthy posts of ours.

 

[GDL]

Isa 58:13

I'll disregard Isaiah for now. As I said, eschatology needs to be included in the analysis. I have no argument against the importance of Sabbath in the OC era.

Jesus didn't see it this way which is why He said they were blameless.

NKJ Matthew 12:5 "Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?

It seems Jesus is making reference to Torah to make this observation. Jesus disagreed with Torah?

 

[BobRyan]

I'll disregard Isaiah for now. As I said, eschatology needs to be included in the analysis. I have no argument against the importance of Sabbath in the OC era.

NKJ Matthew 12:5 "Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?

It seems Jesus is making reference to Torah to make this observation. Jesus disagreed with Torah?

In Matt 5 Jesus condemns the idea that someone would claim his teaching was to disregard the law of God. His enemies often did that very thing as the gospels show us.

You are using the text out of context - because Jesus is saying that following the Law of God to the letter in the case of the Priests is to do work - to do their work as priests of God in holy office respecting and reverencing the Sabbath but if someone were not a priest and was doing their specific secular work on Sabbath it would be Sabbath breaking.

Not once at Sinai or in the 40 years following Moses did God ever charge the Priests with Sabbath breaking because they chose to follow His word to the Letter in offering the sacrifices of God as part of holy worship on the Sabbath - and we all know it. By taking his statement out of context one could get to many sorts of contradictions. But if taken in context all the supposed contradictions of Christ vanish.

 

[BobRyan]

I have not seen one scripture that says we can break the Sabbath commandment and thus far no one has provided any such scripture.

Amen

 

[GDL]

I wasn't trying to be cheeky when I said the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Acts 5:32 John 14:15-18 and was not casting judgement on you I am not necessarily even referring to you, I'm quoting scripture. I think its impossible to understand the scriptures without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you do not obey the 4th commandment, I think it would be impossible to truly understand the scriptures that pertain to it. You seem to think the commandments mean everything but the 4th commandment, God didn’t seem to see it that way. Right in the unit of Ten that He wrote He said showing mercy to those who love Me and keep My commandments Exo 20:6 God identified His commandments right in the Ten. I think it's foolish to think when we see in scripture ‘the commandments of God’, ‘My commandments’ ‘ His commandments’ means everything except the 4th commandment when God wrote and it included the Sabbath with the other commandments. This is eisegesis. He personally wrote His commandments on stone, did not leave up to man to write them, like He did will all other laws, then He writes it on the hearts and minds of His people, and they are not different laws. There is no scripture that says I will write My laws on the hearts and minds everything except the 4th commandment, the one I said to Remember, regardless how many people want to believe this.

Thanks for the explanation. Not being cheeky is appreciated!

Too much here. A few underlined observations:

• If all Christians have the Spirit, then why all the disagreement on Scriptures?
• Not obeying the commandment so impossible to understand it seems an interesting way to proclaim superiority in interpretation.
• I have a love for God, His Word and His Law used lawfully. I remain unconvinced the 4th is carried into the new era. I see you and others eisegeting Scriptures and turning assumptions into facts. I've stated that I'm sure I'm doing similarly at times and am open to solid exegesis and correction thereby.
• IMO you're being way too narrow with the word "commandments." The Jews identified 613 of them in the Law given to Moses. For example, in Matt15:4 Jesus referred to 1 of the 10 and to a commandment outside but associated with that 1 of 10 as "God commanded." As I said previously, the Jews now see hundreds of the 613 commands as not being observable now. The point being terminology you are identifying is not so cut and dry as you're proposing.
• And now the stones are nowhere to be found and He is writing His Law on hearts because the era of stones was temporary, was for a purpose of raising children under a guardian, and is now bygone,
• Your point about man writing is what? Did Moses make a mistake with the other 603?
• "they are not different laws" - this is unproven opinion and even then, requires explanation. There was the Law of Moses and now there is the Law of Christ. 9 of the 10 Words/Statements are readily identifiable in the NC Writings. The 4th is simply not as clear and debated in a much wider scope than this forum. There were 613 Mosaic Laws using the work of Jews down through the centuries. Hundreds are no longer in effect. Hebrews tells us the Law was changed. So, "they are not different laws" but changed Law? If the Mosaic was a body of Law for the now replaced Mosaic Covenant, and if hundreds of those Laws are not observable, and if it still holds true that if you break one you break them all (yet all are no longer applicable in this era), and if Christians are dead to the Law and not under the Law, but can fulfill the Law of Christ, then "they are not different laws" seems a highly simplistic and unqualified statement. It's a fact that some Laws are now different or Jesus would not be Great High Priest and we would be doing blood sacrifices and killing Sabbath desecrators, except the Priests, of course.
• I agree there is no Scripture that vividly in one statement ends the 4th. Thus, the debate. I disagree (not fully) that there is no reason to consider the 4th as currently mandatory and as part of God's eternal character required of humanity. Law is a big topic. Bigger than the 4th Word/Statement.

 

[GDL]

I have not seen one scripture that says we can break the Sabbath commandment and thus far no one has provided any such scripture

It's easy to get dug in and not see what one does not want to see for whatever reason one does not want to see it. It was a struggle for me to come out of the camp-based theology I was trained and ordained in. All of this interpretation is a struggle. It makes me wonder about the activities of His Spirit and the scope and intensity of the battle we are still involved in. After a few thousand years of having His Word and His Spirit, what's the problem? Different camps will provide different answers. Some will simply say the Reformation is the problem. I know some of how hard SDA has worked against such opinion.

Enough for this post.

 

[GDL]

Are you kidding me? I have discussed this same issue 1000 times it seems!

Please forgive me for not having read your 1000 discussions. That's the thing with forums like this. These discussions are one big repetitive merry-go-round that normally resolve nothing but keep the posters looking at advertisements or paying fees like a good social media venture. So, please don't blame me for not having focused on your discussions. Nothing personal.

My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working. Do you not understand what that means? The Almighty does not need rest, Shabbat was made for man. Nowhere in Torah is doing good WORKS on Shabbat prohibited. Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill.

You're being a little too aggressive for my tastes. I'm quite able to respond in kind but would rather keep that side of me at rest for now.

Yes, I do understand these things you mention. And I attended a Messianic congregation on Shabbat with a wonderful Rabbi for years when the movement was much younger and have continued to read Messianic writings for decades along with extensive non-Messianic writings and studies. I'm surprised you haven't read my few 1000 posts and don't know me better (got that out, now resting again).

If I'm asking questions and putting forth argument for or against something, it doesn't always mean I'm settled one way or the other.

Why don't you say something constructive and analyze Matt12:1-8 for us? One of the most interesting explanations - in part - that I've read was written by a Messianic.

Also, if you haven't done so already, why don't you answer the bottom section of this post for me linked here?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm simply reading the words of Jesus Christ. I am sorry you disregard His words. Don't you think it better to try to explain why He uses such words and makes such statements?

NKJ Matt12:5 "Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?​

​

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)​

​

[BDAG] βεβηλόω​

• βεβηλόω fut. βεβηλώσω LXX; 1 aor. ἐβεβήλωσα. Pass.: aor. ἐβεβηλώθην LXX; pf. 3 pl. βεβήλωνται 1 Macc 3:51; ptc. βεβηλωμένος LXX. (s. βέβηλος; Heliod. 2, 25; 10, 36; oft. LXX; Test12Patr, Just., Hesychius, Suda) to cause someth. highly revered to become identified with the commonplace, violate sanctity, desecrate, profane the Sabbath (2 Esdr 23:17; Ezk 20:13; 1 Macc 1:43, 45 al. Opp. φυλάσσειν τ. σαββ. Is 56:2) Mt 12:5; the sanctuary (Ezk 28:18; 2 Macc 8:2) Ac 24:6; God’s name (Lev 18:21; 21:6 al.) Hs 8, 6, 2 (cod. A for βλασφημήσωσιν τὸν νόμον).—DELG s.v. βέβηλος. TW. Spicq.​

NKJ Exodus 31:14 `You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes (same word in LXX) it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.​

​

I guess the first couple questions would be:

• Why does Jesus use such language to describe the priests' activities?
• If Sabbath has the status you apply to it, then why did God have it desecrated by some and hold them blameless?
• What would answer to such questions teach us about Sabbath?

I'm going to review some of your work in parts. It's difficult to keep track of these lengthy posts of ours.

As previously stated the work the priests were doing was for worship service, if it was not for worship service it would be just work, which is why they were held blameless. Doing God's "work" on the Sabbath like gospel preaching as an example of Paul and the apostles did every Sabbath and Jesus Himself is not in violation of the 4th commandment. Jesus is identifying that He is greater than the temple v6 and that He is Lord of The Sabbath i.e. the Creator who spoke the very Words- Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy so if anyone would know how to keep the Sabbath is Jesus. The Pharisees added many laws to the Sabbath and the other commandments- the Sabbath is meant to be a blessing and a delight Isa 58:13 and its too bad you don't include some of the clear scriptures of some of the prophetic books- it is all God's Word. 2 Tim 3:16

 

[oikonomia]

LOL, how is that??? It literally says EATING and FOOD! Jews had weekly days of fasting. This is fact. You must know very little regarding 2nd Temple Judaism and early Church history. The controversy was over the days of fasting. I exclude the Sabbath because it IS excluded. No one fasts on Shabbat. Oy vey!

You're trying to "context" bluff me.

 

[GDL]

GDL,

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Rom. 14:5)

All one has to know is that "a day" means any day.
Persuasve sounding special pleading to exempt a certain day not withstanding.

"A day" means that any day qualifies.

Makes sense. As I said previously, the food and day statements seem to be stand alone, not joined together in the sense of fasting or such things. It seems another place the issues of calendars and foods are discussed as cultural matters in transformation from resurrection & session to the AD70 exclamation point.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thanks for the explanation. Not being cheeky is appreciated!

Too much here. A few underlined observations:

• If all Christians have the Spirit, then why all the disagreement on Scriptures?

Where is the scripture that says all Christians have the Spirit.

I think Romans 8:4-8 makes the case that those who are hostile to God's law are not in His Spirit. Jesus said IF you love Me, keep My commandments And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

God gives everyone the Holy Spirit to help convict us of sin- which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 and points right to the unit of Ten Romans 7:7 even in the NT. I think its a grave mistake to think because John did not repeat every single commandment of the Ten that it only includes the one commandment. God gave a number- He wrote the Ten Words- and He added no more. God set aside these Ten as different than all the other commandments and I believe unless you understand the role and significance of these commandments that God Himself wrote and spoke the bible will be hard to understand.

• Not obeying the commandment so impossible to understand it seems an interesting way to proclaim superiority in interpretation.

No one is superior to another human-being regardless is they understand the scriptures or not. Christ loves us whether we obey Him or not and died while we were still sinners. Romans 5:8 but God does not let go of us, we let go of Him when we choose our will over His will.

We have to trust the blessings God promises for those who believe which is a call to action shown through obedience. The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of sin (breaking God's law) and guide us to all Truth John 16:8,13 When the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins we must confess our sins in order to be forgiven. 1 John 1:9 If we don't confess our sins and cover them we will not prosper Pro 28:13 Once we have been convicted of sin we should not make haste and delay to keep God's commandments Psa 119:60 now is the day of salvation 2 Cor 6:2 which is why the Holy Spirit pleas with us "Today" not to be in rebellion to God which is disobedience Heb 3:7-8 God's Spirit will not be with us forever if we reject and become deaf to His voice Gen 6:3 1 Thes 5:19 There becomes a time when we are so closed off to God's Truth that God will give strong delusion where we start believing the lie 2 Thes 2:10-12 God gives us His Spirit to help us keep His commandments John 14:15-18 and to those who obey Acts 5:32 and are not hostile to His law Rom 8:4-8

So yes, I do believe when we reject God's Truth, there is a time when the Holy Spirit leaves us which makes some scriptures hard to understand according to God's own Word.

• I have a love for God, His Word and His Law used lawfully. I remain unconvinced the 4th is carried into the new era. I see you and others eisegeting Scriptures and turning assumptions into facts. I've stated that I'm sure I'm doing similarly at times and am open to solid exegesis and correction thereby.

I am not questioning your love to God, that is way above my pay grade but I think you're wrong in regards to the 4th commandment. The bible is one continuous book you can't fully understand the NT without the OT and visa versa. Was there some changes in the NT- of course but not as great as many want to believe. The commandments of God continued on in the NT as Jesus is the one who gave them and He is not in conflict with His own commandments and the very commandments that defines sin Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 and are in the Most Holy of His Temple, under His mercy seat that convicts the world of sin and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21, not in sin. The Sabbath didn't disappear in the NT, it is still called the Sabbath in the NT and God so clearly defined the Sabbath as being on the seventh day Exo 20:10 and MY holy day Isa 58:13 kept by Jesus Himself and all the disciples as our example 1 John 2:6 John 15:10 and Jesus says If you love Me, keep My commandments almost quoting verbatim what He said right in the Ten Exo 20:6

• IMO you're being way too narrow with the word "commandments." The Jews identified 613 of them in the Law given to Moses. For example, in Matt15:4 Jesus referred to 1 of the 10 and to a commandment outside but associated with that 1 of 10 as "God commanded." As I said previously, the Jews now see hundreds of the 613 commands as not being observable now. The point being terminology you are identifying is not so cut and dry as you're proposing.

Not everything is a commandment Neh 9:13 and God only wrote and spoke 10 commandments and only the 10 are inside the ark of the covenant. Jesus taught on the Ten often either keeping as our example or telling us not to break the least commandments Mat 5:19 quoting directing from the Ten. While there are other sub-laws to the Ten, the Ten are on a different foundation than all other laws- God loved us so much He did not leave it up to man to write His holy law. God's law has been from the beginning, because without law there is no sin Romans 4:15 sin is breaking God's law Romans 7:7 and sin started in heaven so there had to be God's law. Sin was in the garden, so it had to be God's law and I think it a huge mistake that God's law in heaven was the one written by Moses that was placed outside the ark verses the commandments God personally written by God's finger that is inside the ark and revealed in heaven Rev 11:19 which of course included the Sabbath commandment- the way God wrote and spoke it, not what was edited by man that we are warned about in the holy scriptures. Dan 7:25 which we see history fulfilling this prophecy.

• And now the stones are nowhere to be found and He is writing His Law on hearts because the era of stones was temporary, was for a purpose of raising children under a guardian, and is now bygone,

Well, perhaps if you embraced the Prophetic scriptures, you would head the warning said so plainly that disagrees with your beliefs.


One of the last scriptures in the Bible right before the Revelation of Jesus Christ

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside (quoting directly from the unit of Ten) are dogs (sinners) and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exo 20:16 or breaking any of the commandments 1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ). The commandments are a unit of Ten Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 and James in the NT says you break one commandment quoting and contrasting from the Ten we break them all. James 2:10-12 They are not meant to be burdensome 1 John 5:3 they are meant to bless us Psalm 119:2

• I agree there is no Scripture that vividly in one statement ends the 4th. Thus, the debate. I disagree (not fully) that there is no reason to consider the 4th as currently mandatory and as part of God's eternal character required of humanity. Law is a big topic. Bigger than the 4th Word/Statement.

If the goal is to follow God, I would want a Text to say why we do not have to keep one of His commandment's, when NT shows, the saints keep the commandments of God Rev 14:12 and it is what matters 1 Cor 7:19 as Paul contrasts the other laws with the commandments of God.. The Sabbath is a commandment of God regardless if the majority rejects it for some strange reason. Jesus tells us to follow the narrow path, not the majority and scripture sadly shows there is only a remnant who keep God's commandments Rev 12:17 and I believe that means all Ten, not kept to be saved, but because Jesus changes us and we want obey Him though love and faith.

 

[GDL]

in regards to the context of the passage which is fasting...

Seems like more insertion into the Text than taking from the Text.

 

[GDL]

I answered your question about "WHO WHERE THEY??"

Anyone is who they not only WERE but are still - ANYONE.

This I say that no one may delude you with persuasive speech. (Col.2:4) "No one" is anyone.

Beware that no one carries you off as spoil through his philosophy. . . (v.8) "No one" is anyone.

Let no one defraud you by judging you unworthy of your prize, (v. 18) "No one" is anyone.

We don't need you to claim you have the inside story on the identities of "no one."

As I mentioned previously, most literally it is "not anyone" - "No one" saying the same thing.

I see a lot of "anyones" mentioned in context, even a few from verses you've posted above. "Not anyone" / "No one" easily seems to flow in the context. There are many sources of delusions, ungodly philosophy, defrauding. The point being our Source is clear & there are many "anyones" who rebel against it and like to take others with them.

 

[oikonomia]

All one has to know is it isn't any day because the context of the passage isn't the Lords will in our lives but arguing over our own opinions and surmising. See verse 1 and 2 again. In reading How do we know? Because no where does it state in the Torah we are to only eat Vegetables or herbs and verse 1 which sets the context outright tells us it is about opinions .

Rom 14:1 (NET) Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions.
Rom 14:2 One person believes in eating everything, but the weak person eats only vegetables.

HIM,
I am not sure I understand fully your post.

I would say the list of examples Paul gives about potentially divisive practices is only representative.
It is not exhaustive. You're suppose to get the overall principle of tolerance given his few examples.

Secondly, there is nothing dictating that his examples have to be based on Torah instructions.
They may or may not be based on the Torah.
Many believers brought with them former practices precious to them from various sources - Greek, Jewish, Barbarian, Scythian, freeman, slave, etc, etc.

Whatever the background of their practices they must learn oneness in Christ, fear Him, be accountable to Him.

Now two representative (not exhaustive) examples Paul gives are diet and special days,
He doesn't mention clothing because you are suppose to grasp his principle.
He doesn't mention other things he well could have mentioned only because we are suppose
to grasp his principle.

So - his two representative examples:

1.) Diet - One believes that he may eat all things, . . . (14:2a)

2.) Special days - One judges one day above another; (14:5)

He offered two representative examples. He could have offered four, or six. Two will suffice.
It doesn't matter whether the cherished practice is based on the Jewish Torah or any OTHER tradition.

This heading covers the two representative examples:

Now him who is weak in faith receive, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his considerations. (v.1)

This summary covers the two representative examples:

For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself; (v. 7)

This summary also covers the two representative examples:

For whether we live, we live to the Lord, and whether we die,
we die to the Lord. Therefore whether we live or we die, we are the Lord’s. (v. 8)

Diet and special days is provided to make his point.
Clothing, utinsils, ways of praying, ways of addressing, ways of many other things - are not specifically exampled.

With the two examples he uses as reprentative we are suppose to see the principle.
Be persuaded in yourself and not eager to pronounce judgment on another brother who differs in practice.

The discussaion in chapter 14 is not just a matter of individual spirituality.
It is a matter of receiving one another for a healthy assembly life, a practical church life in oneness.

Also under uniting his examples under one principle are verses 12,13.
True brotherly love will not put a stumbling block before the other's faith and enjoyment of Christ.
Rather there should be the healthy reverance to Jesus before Whom we all will answer for our Christian life.

"So then" signaling his conclusion.

So then each one of us will give an account concerning himself to God.
Therefore let us judge one another no longer, but rather judge this:
not to put a stumbling block or cause of falling before your brother. (v. 12,13)

 

[GDL]

As previously stated the work the priests were doing was for worship service, if it was not for worship service it would be just work, which is why they were held blameless. Doing God's "work" on the Sabbath like gospel preaching as an example of Paul and the apostles did every Sabbath and Jesus Himself is not in violation of the 4th commandment. Jesus is identifying that He is greater than the temple v6 and that He is Lord of The Sabbath i.e. the Creator who spoke the very Words- Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy so if anyone would know how to keep the Sabbath is Jesus. The Pharisees added many laws to the Sabbath and the other commandments- the Sabbath is meant to be a blessing and a delight Isa 58:13 and its too bad you don't include some of the clear scriptures of some of the prophetic books- it is all God's Word. 2 Tim 3:16

You're not responding to my point that you misrepresented before. It is Jesus Christ who calls attention to the Law that informs that the Priests desecrate the Sabbath [and are blameless].

It's easy to read Jesus statement about His being greater than the temple, but that doesn't fully explain why He spoke of the showbread and the Priests desecrating the Sabbath.

It's too bad you want to address OC Prophecy without explaining it and how it fits into past events or future eschatology and have others accept that it supports your position on the 4th. You can decry as you said 1million questions, but this is a lengthy & heavily debated study as can be seen by the amount of information you post. The problem with extensive information is that it can contain extensive error. Thus, please get used to the questions and requests for explanations.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You're not responding to my point that you misrepresented before. It is Jesus Christ who calls attention to the Law that informs that the Priests desecrate the Sabbath [and are blameless].

It's easy to read Jesus statement about His being greater than the temple, but that doesn't fully explain why He spoke of the showbread and the Priests desecrating the Sabbath.

It's too bad you want to address OC Prophecy without explaining it and how it fits into past events or future eschatology and have others accept that it supports your position on the 4th. You can decry as you said 1million questions, but this is a lengthy & heavily debated study as can be seen by the amount of information you post. The problem with extensive information is that it can contain extensive error. Thus, please get used to the questions and requests for explanations.

He was using the showbread as an example of why eating is not a sin on the Sabbath- this goes back to the story when young David was running for his life from Saul and went into the temple and was given showbread to eat because he was hungry much like the disciples were when they were walking with Jesus and was plucking the heads of grain and smashing it and eating along the way walking with Jesus which is not a sin, they were not harvesting grain. Jesus was not quoting from the Ten Commandments- Jesus was referencing the laws made by the Pharisees, not the commandments of God. There is no mention of eating or drinking in the Sabbath commandment Exo 20:8-11, the Sabbath is meant to honor God on His holy day and if one is hungry on the Sabbath and wants to pick a piece of fruit off a tree to eat, its not a sin, which is why they were held blameless. Jesus is not giving permission to "profane" the Sabbath commandment - how many times did He say not to do that? You seem to keep siding with the Pharasees on this issue.