Did Abraham observe the Sabbath day?

[GDL]

CONCLUSION: There is nothing about God's 4th commandment anywhere in Romans 14.

• Maybe right, maybe wrong.
• If judging a day includes Saturday, then God’s 4th is included in Romans 14.

The scriptures are talking about food connected to days (eating and not eating (fasting) on days men esteem over other days. Not what days God esteems and judging others.

• Food connected to days seems eisegetical:
  • Eating all things vs. eating only vegetables seems clearly about what foods, not what days.
  • All things are pure seems it’s clearly about foods not days.
  • Eating meat & drinking wine [vs. not eating meat or drinking wine] seems clearly about foods not days.
  • If there is no food connection to the matter of day, then the issue of day is separate – IOW, Paul is dealing with 2 issues; foods and days.

Your quote re: the things men esteem being abomination:

• Maybe yes, maybe no. This blanket is too big.
• And the context lesson of Romans 14 is in the not judging one another in such matters and God’s ability to make His people stand.

I would hate to be wrong about one of God's commandments.

I have no doubt about this. I share the mindset. I think others do also.

I do appreciate the zeal. As is always with all of us, is it according to knowledge? Thus, we contest exegesis.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

• Maybe right, maybe wrong.
• If judging a day includes Saturday, then God’s 4th is included in Romans 14.

Please quote in Romans 14 where God is judging here. It says what man esteems, not God and the Sabbath is not mentioned in this entire passage.

You are adding what is not there.

 

[GDL]

Hi GDL- I know how you feel about the Sabbath from previous discussions, but I'll answer these questions to the best of my abilities.

To be clear, I still see decent arguments both ways.

Yes, Paul quotes from the Ten to define the law that points out sin when broken Romans 7:7 and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Ecc 12:13-14 so it is the morally right thing for God's people to follow God's righteousness Psa 119:172 and Truth Psa 119:151 and God does not want His children to sin, which is morally wrong. God never separated the Sabbath from the other 9 commandments man did this. God specifically called them the Ten Commandments, or Ten Words that God personally placed these together on stone written by His own finger and it really surprises me how many Christians argue against these commandments, or mainly the one commandment God said to Remember and is holy and blessed by God.

If the 4th pertains to God's righteous moral character, then why does He allow it to be disobeyed in the case of the priestly duties in the Temple?

Jesus said they were blameless Mat 12:7 because it is not a sin to eat on the Sabbath and what they were doing was no different than picking a piece of fruit on the Sabbath and eating it. They were not harvesting wheat; they were walking with Jesus and hungry and eating is not a sin on the Sabbath I hope you are not taking the side of the Pharisees here who crucified Jesus without a cause. The Pharisees were accusing the apostles and Jesus of breaking their sabbath, not the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments. They added many rules to the God's Sabbath, which Jesus was correcting them.

But Jesus' answer was much more detailed than yours. In part, the priestly duties overrode the 4th.

I think many misunderstand the word rest- it does not mean to be in bed and to do nothing. The commandment is to keep the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:8 and we rest from physical work in order to do this. The purpose of the Sabbath is for man to spend time with God. We cannot know someone if we do not spend quality time with them and God is no different, which is why He set aside, blessed and made holy time for man to spend time with Him because man cannot sanctify themselves only God can Eze 20:12 regardless how hard they try.

I don't misunderstand rest from work. I don't spend time with God [in me] one day per week.

There are parallels that many miss from the time in the wilderness to where we are now. We are experiencing a similar trial and the bondage in Egypt also represents the bondage to sin, which we are all in since the devil has dominion over the earth. Jesus is going to free us one day soon from our trial which we are in today- just like the Israelites were tested -so are we today. Will we pass the test?

In Christ, we are freed from the bondage.

And some say there is a parallel to the 4th now.

Work does not necessarily mean working at a job. It could include doing laundry, gardening, running errands, any secular work. God gives us 6 days to get all our work and labors done and only asks for one day back where we can unplug from the world and just spend quality time with Him.

Many in the US grew up with working 5 and taking off 2. Many still do.

If an observer of the 4th only works 5, are they in sin?

I'm [for the most part] retired. If I work 1 or more but not 6, then am I in sin?

Generally no, but if one is injured or in an emergency, like examples Jesus provided, it is not a sin to get emergency services.

How about restaurants, gas stations (overwatched self-serve), and the such?

Yes, I run a business, and no one works on the Sabbath even though many ask to.

And the ones who must work for others and are asked to work on the 7th must decline and possibly lose employment.

I know many of these are basic questions asked and answered continuously, but one of the Greek words for knowledge that Jesus gives us I see best translated as "practical knowledge" - usable knowledge - knowledge to be put to use.

 

[GDL]

Please quote in Romans 14 where God is judging here. It says what man esteems, not God and the Sabbath is not mentioned in this entire passage.

You are adding what is not there.

I sure I'm prone to eisegesis as most if not all are, but I watch for it and work to avoid it.

You've misread what I said. Man is [literally] judging days, not God.

At this point, my read is that It's an opinion that Sabbath is not mentioned. As I said, if Sabbath is included in "day[s}," then Sabbath is mentioned.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

To be clear, I still see decent arguments both ways.

It seems you made a stand on this subject from what I recall.

If the 4th pertains to God's righteous moral character, then why does He allow it to be disobeyed in the case of the priestly duties in the Temple?

Were the priests doing "secular work" or were they doing work for God. Isa 58:13 which is why they were held blameless. Just like Pastors preaching God's Word on the Sabbath- that's their job, but they are blameless because they are doing God's ways and not secular work.

But Jesus' answer was much more detailed than yours. In part, the priestly duties overrode the 4th.

Not at all, they were keeping the 4th, many just misunderstand their "work"

I don't spend time with God [in me] one day per week.

Most Sabbath-keepers don't either, but do you spend 24/7 as the Sabbath without doing any type of secular work ? Exo 20:9 If every day was the Sabbath, we would all starve, and no work would get done. We should worship God every day through study of His word, prayer and communion, but that doesn't take away the Sabbath commandment. God told us to work six days and only keep one day holy, the seventh day Sabbath- the day He claimed as His holy day in His very own words, not the one man assigned to Him that He deemed for works and labors.

In Christ, we are freed from the bondage.

And some say there is a parallel to the 4th now.

Only those not in Christ would think spending time with Him is bondage.

Many in the US grew up with working 5 and taking off 2. Many still do.

If an observer of the 4th only works 5, are they in sin?

I'm [for the most part] retired. If I work 1 or more but not 6, then am I in sin?

The Sabbath commandment is not hard to understand, and God gives us His Spirit when we obey Him Act 5:32 John 14:15-18 It's sort of like people who do not have children telling others that do how to raise them. If you do not keep the Sabbath or keep it but think its bondage, you are not experiencing the real blessing God is trying to give and part of this blessing is the Holy Spirit who helps us understand His Word better when we obey Him.

How about restaurants, gas stations (overwatched self-serve), and the such?

We are not to pay for things on the Sabbath, if everyone would be obeying God, this would be a moot point. We have the preparation day of Friday so one can be ready for the Sabbath

And the ones who must work for others and are asked to work on the 7th must decline and possibly lose employment.

Yes, its not always easy following God, but He will take care of those who obey Him. Our faith can be tested just like the heros in scripture.

I know many of these are basic questions asked and answered continuously, but one of the Greek words for knowledge that Jesus gives us I see best translated as "practical knowledge" - usable knowledge - knowledge to be put to use.

God is practical, but He also expects His people to obey Him without asking a million questions as to why. I trust God is trying to bless us through His Sabbath and while I could be doing a million other things- God wants us to spend time with Him which is what the Sabbath is about and there is nothing more important than this so I don't understand the argument. A question to ponder- those who don't want to keep the Sabbath now, will they be happy in God's Kingdom, where the Sabbath continues as the saints gather around Jesus for worship Isa 66:22-23

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I sure I'm prone to eisegesis as most if not all are, but I watch for it and work to avoid it.

You've misread what I said. Man is [literally] judging days, not God.

At this point, my read is that It's an opinion that Sabbath is not mentioned. As I said, if Sabbath is included in "day[s}," then Sabbath is mentioned.

Then why bring it up at all? Paul didn't. Paul said what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19 the Sabbath is a commandment of God, that Paul kept every Sabbath. This certainly is not about one of God's commandments.

• If judging a day includes Saturday, then God’s 4th is included in Romans 14.

Anway, I need to get back from work- I may drop back in later. God bless.

 

[GDL]

It seems you made a stand on this issue from what I recall.

I leaned on a side which I still lean on, but I'm not conclusive and open to good exegesis.

Were the priests doing "secular work" or were they doing work for God.

Says no scriptures- that Jesus overrode the Sabbath commandment. Had He, He could not have been our Savior.

Was Temple work "secular"?

How would you explain what Jesus said and meant in Matt12:5?

I do hope you agree that Jesus worked on Sabbath (John5) though the 4th forbids it.

So do most Sabbath-keepers, but do you spend 24/7 without doing any type of secular work the other six days God deemed for working. Exo 20:9 If every day was the Sabbath we would all starve. We should worship God every day through study of His word, prayer and communion, but that doesn't take away the Sabbath commandment. God told us to work six days and only keep one day holy, the seventh day Sabbath- the day He claimed as His holy day in His very own words, not the one man assigned to Him that He deemed for works and labors.

Yes, at times I do redeem entire 24 without doing any "secular" work during the 6. At times this 24 may be 24/x. I don't normally labor for 6 and have not for quite some time. Am I in sin?

Yes, its not always easy following God, but He will take care of those who obey Him. Our faith can be tested just like the heros in scripture.

Are there allowances for not laboring 6?

Only those not in Christ would think spending time with God is bondage.

I don't know what you mean. Eisegesis of my writing?

The Sabbath commandment is not hard to understand, and God gives us His Spirit when we obey Him Act 5:32 John 14:15-18 It's sort of like people who do not have children telling others that do how to raise them. If you do not keep the Sabbath or keep it but think its bondage, you are not experiencing the real blessing God is trying to give and part of this blessing is the Holy Spirit who helps us understand His Word better when we obey Him.

Now clearly eisegesis of my writing re: bondage.

Are you judging that I do not obey God and have His Spirit if I do not accept your interpretation of the continuance of the 4th?

We are not to pay for things on the Sabbath, if everyone would be obeying God, this would be a moot point. We have the preparation day of Friday so one can be ready for the Sabbath

Then again, if the 4th is not in force now, then preparation day in the wilderness wanderings is a moot point. Maybe some have learned the lesson of reliance upon God taught in the era of infancy.

Yes, its not always easy following God, but He will take care of those who obey Him. Our faith can be tested just like the heros in scripture.

Then again, if the 4th is not in force now, then it's not God who is testing on this matter.

God is practical, but He also expects His people to obey Him without asking a million questions as to why. I trust God is trying to bless us through His Sabbath and while I could be doing a million other things- God wants us to spend time with Him which is what the Sabbath is about and there is nothing more important than this so I don't understand the argument.

I wouldn't add the "but" after your first clause.

At times He certainly does say, just obey Me (Luke17 increase our faith lesson).

I also think He's fine with a million questions and is the only one who can answer such numbers. Thus, it's faith in Him to ask Him and increasing capacity and seeking in the asking. I also obey His command in Rom14:22 and take into account the perfecting of conscience under our Great High Priest per Hebrews and have always enjoyed Paul's attitude in 1Cor4:3-4. I also enjoy James1:5 for another example of many more.

Redeeming time with God is certainly of high[est] priority. The 4th makes it 1 in 7. I'm not sure how this even makes sense in this era of His indwelling Spirit. So many questions... I'm happy to be able to study His Word and have them. Can you imagine trying to get your practical knowledge truth re: godliness (Titus1:1) from this forum?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I leaned on a side which I still lean on, but I'm not conclusive and open to good exegesis.

Ok

Was Temple work "secular"?

How would you explain what Jesus said and meant in Matt12:5?

The priests were doing work as part of the worship service in the temple, which is why Jesus held them blameless. The work in the Sabbath commandment has to do with secular work, the Sabbath is meant to be about God - doing His ways Isa 58:13 which is why the Priests were held blameless. Jesus did not say those doing secular work were held blameless.

I do hope you agree that Jesus worked on Sabbath (John5) though the 4th forbids it.

I think there are some grave misunderstandings of "God's work" and secular work, which is what the Sabbath commandment is referring to.

Yes, at times I do redeem entire 24 without doing any "secular" work during the 6. At times this 24 may be 24/x. I don't normally labor for 6 and have not for quite some time. Am I in sin?

Are you trying to make an argument if you do not do any work on one of the six days God said are for working would that be sinning and somehow would erase the rest of the commandment? I know the answer to this, but I will leave this between you and God, but sadly I see the Sabbath commandment scrutinized in every which way possible, much more so than any other commandment. To me, this shows how powerful the Sabbath is and the spiritual war going on. God said Remember- man says forget.... who do we believe...

Are there allowances for not laboring 6?

People probably do more "work" than they realize.

I don't know what you mean. Eisegesis of my writing?

You said people make the argument that they are free from bondage and connected this to the 4th commandment and I said "Only those not in Christ would think spending time with Him is bondage. " I don't see the Eisegesis. Do you think it could ever be bondage spending time with Christ?

Are you judging that I do not obey God and have His Spirit if I do not accept your interpretation of the continuance of the 4th?

I never once said I was judging you, now you are reading into my post. I just posted scripture Acts 5:32 and I think the Sabbath commandment that God spoke and wrote would be included in our obedience to Him. Most disagree, but I do not like to follow the majority.

Then again, if the 4th is not in force now, then preparation day in the wilderness wanderings is a moot point. Maybe some have learned the lesson of reliance upon God taught in the era of infancy.

The Preparation Day did not end in the NT. Either did the 4th commandment, the apostles kept every Sabbath, Jesus kept every Sabbath and all of the commandments and He is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 plus not one scripture that says the Sabbath commandment ended in scripture. Thats the eisegesis and a dangerous one in my humble opinion- one God warned us about Dan 7:25

Then again, if the 4th is not in force now, then it's not God who is testing on this matter.

I would want a text that says this just as clear as how God gave it. Since God blessed the Sabbath day only He can reverse it Num 23:20 and there is no thus saith the Lord to not keep the Sabbath- we are told the Sabbath is kept for eternity- said by the Lord Isa 66:22-23 Jesus said to keep the least of the commandments Mat 5:19and I don't see the Sabbath as being a least commandments- God said to Remember it and its the only commandment God made holy and blessed. He also hallowed the Sabbath, and even if there wasn't a commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy, but there is, we should not profane God's holy things.

 

[GDL]

Then why bring it up at all? Paul didn't.

Because we were discussing Egypt.

Paul said what matters is keeping the commandments of God.

Paul also pointed us to consider what commandments beyond the 6 of the 10 mentioned in the love neighbor command were to be kept (Rom13:9).

From chabad.org it seems the Jews today see only 369 of the identified 613 commandments as still being observable. What did Paul think and since it seems he wrote before AD70, is what he thought then applicable post AD70?

What commandments? You don't see 1Cor7 speaking in the narrow sense of the 10, do you?

What about the view that "Ten Commandments" is not really an accurate translation and that the Ten Words, or Ten Statements is more accurate. Then the thinking that the Ten are general and the remaining 603 also given at Sinai are included in the Ten?

If the 244 no longer observable are related to the 4th, is the 4th still required? If the 4th is ceremonial (for lack of better terminology at this moment), and if the ceremonial commandments are no longer required, then is the 4th?

What says God cannot or does not change His Law? Hebrews tells us the Law was changed to facilitate the Great High Priesthood of Jesus Christ. What specifically tells us the 10 is an unchangeable unit? What tells us the Law of Christ has not pulled the 4th and all its sub-commands because Christ has fulfilled them? Is there no reason the 4th is not repeated in the Law of Christ NC Scriptures?

As I asked before, if the 4th is God's unchanging moral righteousness and our commanded moral thought and behavior and character, then why did God have His Priests violate/desecrate/profane the 4th as Jesus asked? Did God suspend His moral character requirements for His Priests to serve Him in His Temple? Did He require their moral character only 6 in 7?

1 Cor 7:19 the Sabbath is a commandment of God,

This is eisegesis. The 4th is not stated in 1Cor7:19.

that Paul kept every Sabbath. This certainly is not about one of God's commandments.

This is an absolute statement not made in Scripture. Even though I wouldn't argue against it right now, I would reference 1Cor9:19-22 for consideration.

Paul also pointed us to considering what commandments beyond the 6 of the 10 mentioned in the love neighbor command were to be kept (Rom13:9). IOW, he left some work for us to do.

I don't understand the relevance of your last sentence unless it's misplaced. If it's in answer to what I said about Rom14, then I'll disagree with you.

Anway, I need to get back from work- I may drop back in later. God bless.

US man says you can take the day off. Do you observe the Holy Days?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Because we were discussing Egypt.

Paul also pointed us to consider what commandments beyond the 6 of the 10 mentioned in the love neighbor command were to be kept (Rom13:9).

Really, does this apply to being able to worship other gods or vain God's holy name, bowing to idols or only to the Sabbath commandment or did Paul say "and if there be any other commandment. " Are there other commandments? Yes. If we look at the context of this passage it is referring to submitting to government. Should government be telling us how to keep the first 4 commandments on how to worship God? No just the ones dealing with man. No government should be telling us how to worship God, that is mans free will.

This is eisegesis. The 4th is not stated in 1Cor7:19.

Is the Sabbath a commandment of God? If not, where is that Text? The burden is on you to prove the Sabbath is not a commandment of God, when God said it is. Exo 20 Jesus quoted right from this unit of Ten calling it a commandment of God Mat 15:3-9. The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten, not 9 or eight. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments. James said quoting and contrasting from the Ten if we break one we break them all James 2:10-12.

US man says you can take the day off. Do you observe the Holy Days?

The annual feast day ordinances? No I do not per the scripture Col 2:14-17 Hebrews 10:1-10 which is not referring to any of the commandments. But if we are going to keep them, keep them onto the Lord.

 

[GDL]

The priests were doing work as part of the worship service in the temple, which is why Jesus held them blameless. The work in the Sabbath commandment has to do with secular work, the Sabbath is meant to be about God - doing His ways Isa 58:13 which is why the Priests were held blameless. Jesus did not say those doing secular work were held blameless.

Would you precisely define "secular" as you mean it? I've noted the already discussed manna lesson.

Jesus says they desecrate the Sabbath. It's an interesting choice of words also used in the LXX. So, your answer is the Sabbath can be desecrated as long as the desecration is about God?

What do you think Jesus' entire lesson was in these Matt12 verses - including why He then goes into David and the showbread and then the Lord of Sabbath?

I think there are some grave misunderstandings of "God's work" and secular work, which is what the Sabbath commandment is referring to.

So, you shall do no work is actually no secular work? Who was excluded from the command, just the Priests?

Are you trying to make an argument if you do not do any work on one of the six days God said are for working would that be sinning and somehow would erase the rest of the commandment? I know the answer to this, but I will leave this between you and God, but sadly I see the Sabbath commandment scrutinized in every which way possible, much more so than any other commandment. To me, this shows how powerful the Sabbath is and the spiritual war going on. God said Remember- man says forget.... who do we believe...

I'm reading the Text verbatim and wondering how you interpret the "you shall labor" language. Is it also command or other language?

IMO Sabbath is certainly an issue of interpretation, but I'm not stuck on it. You (and SDA) on the other hand place great emphasis on it and thereby attract likewise response. To relate the debate to "spiritual war" indicates your reference. As you know, it is a relative rarity that I participate at all in the discussions. When I do, it's mainly inquiry and at times debate on some Scripture. I'm more interested in the overall discussion re: God's Law and the Law of Christ in which the 4th is discussed as part.

People probably do more "work" than they realize.

Defining "work" would probably help.

You said people make the argument that they are free from bondage and connected this to the 4th commandment and I said "Only those not in Christ would think spending time with Him is bondage. " I don't see the Eisegesis. Do you think it could ever be bondage spending time with Christ?

Again, you're misreading what I said/meant. God freed Israel from bondage in Egypt. We're freed from bondage to sin.

The 4th was not included in the correlation.

I never once said I was judging you, now you are reading into my post.

I do see judgment inferred in your position. Your statements and references seem to be judging that others who do not agree with your view of the 4th are in disobedience to God. You also reference Scripture that correlates obedience to having His Spirit (maybe correctly interpreted and maybe not) Do you mean to say that disobedience to the 4th means not to have His Spirit?

I'm just working from what you write. You can correct me with clarification.

The Preparation Day did not end in the NT. Either did the 4th commandment, the apostles kept every Sabbath, Jesus kept every Sabbath and all of the commandments and He is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 plus not one scripture that says the Sabbath commandment ended in scripture. Thats the eisegesis and a dangerous one in my humble opinion- one God warned us about Dan 7:25

Maybe it ended and maybe it didn't. We're not told.

Did the gentile believers all learn to practice the preparation and then obey the 4th? Did all Jewish in Christ continue to observe the 4th? Where is this stated clearly?

Did all that was normative pre-resurrection remain normative from then to AD70? Or were things transitioning and even hard to understand? Is there a reason documents like Hebrews that explains the change in covenants and Law were written?

After AD70, what was normative and so now normative? I know your answer re: the 4th, but how much have you thought through the larger context of the Law of Christ?

There's not one NC Scripture that commands Sabbath. In this respect both sides of the debate are arguing from silence.

There's an entire body of work to do to determine what in the Mosaic Law may be included/excluded in the Law of Christ. At least the Jewish thinking I referenced before is studied enough to identify a position down to the actual number of commandments said to be given at Sinai. I don't see much of any agreement between Christians as to whether or not the Christ was the end of the Law - what this means exactly - what not being under the Law and being dead to the Law mean. So, please forgive me for not having a narrow focus on the 4th of 10.

If we're to imitate Jesus Christ, then we're all to be sinless Rabbis working on Sabbath like our Father. Or are we to imitate Him in His pre-ministry sinless childhood and young manhood wherein observance of the Sabbath was likely?

I would want a text that says this just as clear as how God gave it. Since God blessed the Sabbath day only He can reverse it Num 23:20 and there is no thus saith the Lord to not keep the Sabbath- we are told the Sabbath is kept for eternity- by the Lord Isa 66:22-23 Jesus said to keep the least of the commandments Mat 5:19and I don't see the Sabbath as being a least commandments- God said to Remember it and its the only commandment God made holy and blessed. He also hallowed the Sabbath, and even if there wasn't a commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy, but there is, we should not profane God's holy things.

I'd like many clear statements and so would many, many others. It seems to me our Lord desires us to learn to think and reason and ask millions of questions and seek Him and.... IMO He certainly does leave us to think and study.

I do not know how SDA positions on Eschatology. Bringing in Isa66 requires way too much explanation and eschatological positioning for me to accept what you posit. Also, a quick read results in the question as to why this cannot be translated as week to week compared to month to month just before it.

 

[GDL]

Really, does this apply to being able to worship other gods or vain God's holy name, bowing to idols or only to the Sabbath commandment or did Paul say "and if there be any other commandment. " Are there other commandments? Yes. If we look at the context of this passage it is referring to submitting to government. Should government be telling us how to keep the first 4 commandments on how to worship God? No just the ones dealing with man. No government should be telling us how to worship God, that is mans free will.

It obviously refers to what constitutes love for neighbor. And the point I made is that Paul has us do our own homework on points of Law. When he says "any other commandment" do you think He's pointing us only to the rest of the 10 or beyond into the sub-commands beyond the 10?

Is the Sabbath a commandment of God? If not, where is that Text? The burden is on you to prove the Sabbath is not a commandment of God, when God said it is. Exo 20 Jesus quoted right from this unit of Ten calling it a commandment of God Mat 15:3-9. The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten, not 9 or eight. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments. James said quoting and contrasting from the Ten if we break one we break them all James 2:10-12.

It was a commandment of God to the nation Israel at a certain time of history in an era of covenantal law that has ended. And Law has been changed per Hebrews. To what extent is debated. So, I have no burden to prove what we both can read clearly in Ex20 & Deut5 which I have never denied.

Such as these are silly arguments you're making.

In Matt15 Jesus quoted from 1 of the 10 Words/Statements and from additional commands not in the 10 but obviously and clearly related to this 1 of the 10 [general] Words/Statements. This goes back to the point I made previously about the 10 being general with specifics in the rest of the Mosaic Law. My question was, if the specifics are ended, does the general remain?

Then it seems Jesus took a shot at the entire concept of what goes into the mouth defiling a man. Thus we are faced with one of the verses that may be used to discuss food laws.

You're reading Sabbath into these verses.

If we read the NC as critically on the side of the 4th being ended, then we can most certainly see 9 of 10 repeated, but not the 4th. The 10 were given to Israel as a unit on stone, but this does not say the unit remains in the Law of Christ. The stones had glory, but not the glory of the current era in Christ (2Cor3).

What James said was in the transition from Christ's resurrection and seating to AD70 when the entire old system in Jerusalem was actually destroyed as Christ foretold. This goes for potentially all of your arguments re: Sabbath observance and ceremonial observances during those years. Much of what was normative is now simply gone and replaced with what is much more glorious.

In actuality, the way I and others read and analyze Scripture, there is no clearly stated Sabbath command in the Garden, there is no clearly stated Sabbath command to Abraham, there is a clearly stated Sabbath command to Moses/Israel, there is no clearly stated Sabbath command in the NC.

Is it not you who is asking for a clearly stated negation of such command while denying such a need for a clearly stated command in these other times?

The annual feast day ordinances? No I do not per the scripture Col 2:14-17 Hebrews 10:1-10 which is not referring to any of the commandments. But if we are going to keep them, keep them onto the Lord.

I skimmed through some of your lengthy Col2 thinking. No comment or agreement at this moment.

A quick look at Heb10 leaves me wondering how you get from sacrifices and offerings for sins to Holy Days observances so readily. I also again wonder if you ever fully answered if you see the weekly Sabbath commanded for Israel as ceremonial with ceremonial sub-commands and instruction given pursuant to the 10, or part of God's eternally righteous character required of His Children but allowed to be desecrated if doing God's work?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It obviously refers to what constitutes love for neighbor. And the point I made is that Paul has us do our own homework on points of Law. When he says "any other commandment" do you think He's pointing us only to the rest of the 10 or beyond into the sub-commands beyond the 10?

It was a commandment of God to the nation Israel at a certain time of history in an era of covenantal law that has ended. And Law has been changed per Hebrews. To what extent is debated. So, I have no burden to prove what we both can read clearly in Ex20 & Deut5 which I have never denied.

Such as these are silly arguments you're making.

In Matt15 Jesus quoted from 1 of the 10 Words/Statements and from additional commands not in the 10 but obviously and clearly related to this 1 of the 10 [general] Words/Statements. This goes back to the point I made previously about the 10 being general with specifics in the rest of the Mosaic Law. My question was, if the specifics are ended, does the general remain?

Then it seems Jesus took a shot at the entire concept of what goes into the mouth defiling a man. Thus we are faced with one of the verses that may be used to discuss food laws.

You're reading Sabbath into these verses.

If we read the NC as critically on the side of the 4th being ended, then we can most certainly see 9 of 10 repeated, but not the 4th. The 10 were given to Israel as a unit on stone, but this does not say the unit remains in the Law of Christ. The stones had glory, but not the glory of the current era in Christ (2Cor3).

What James said was in the transition from Christ's resurrection and seating to AD70 when the entire old system in Jerusalem was actually destroyed as Christ foretold. This goes for potentially all of your arguments re: Sabbath observance and ceremonial observances during those years. Much of what was normative is now simply gone and replaced with what is much more glorious.

In actuality, the way I and others read and analyze Scripture, there is no clearly stated Sabbath command in the Garden, there is no clearly stated Sabbath command to Abraham, there is a clearly stated Sabbath command to Moses/Israel, there is no clearly stated Sabbath command in the NC.

Is it not you who is asking for a clearly stated negation of such command while denying such a need for a clearly stated command in these other times?


I skimmed through some of your lengthy Col2 thinking. No comment or agreement at this moment.

A quick look at Heb10 leaves me wondering how you get from sacrifices and offerings for sins to Holy Days observances so readily. I also again wonder if you ever fully answered if you see the weekly Sabbath commanded for Israel as ceremonial with ceremonial sub-commands and instruction given pursuant to the 10, or part of God's eternally righteous character required of His Children but allowed to be desecrated if doing God's work?

I am sorry you think doing God's work on the Sabbath is desecrating the 4th commandment. Isa 58:13 Jesus didn't see it this way which is why He said they were blameless. Mat 12:5-7 not because Jesus was a hypocrite and bended the rules for Him and His disciples because its not a sin to eat on the Sabbath. Remember the camp who accused Jesus and His disciples were the same ones who crucified Him without cause and did not think He was God. It's not the camp I would want to be on.

I wasn't trying to be cheeky when I said the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Acts 5:32 John 14:15-18 and was not casting judgement on you I am not necessarily even referring to you, I'm quoting scripture. I think its impossible to understand the scriptures without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you do not obey the 4th commandment, I think it would be impossible to truly understand the scriptures that pertain to it. You seem to think the commandments mean everything but the 4th commandment, God didn’t seem to see it that way. Right in the unit of Ten that He wrote He said showing mercy to those who love Me and keep My commandments Exo 20:6 God identified His commandments right in the Ten. I think it's foolish to think when we see in scripture ‘the commandments of God’, ‘My commandments’ ‘ His commandments’ means everything except the 4th commandment when God wrote and it included the Sabbath with the other commandments. This is eisegesis. He personally wrote His commandments on stone, did not leave up to man to write them, like He did will all other laws, then He writes it on the hearts and minds of His people, and they are not different laws. There is no scripture that says I will write My laws on the hearts and minds everything except the 4th commandment, the one I said to Remember, regardless how many people want to believe this.

I have not seen one scripture that says we can break the Sabbath commandment and thus far no one has provided any such scripture. God said the commandments came in a unit of 10 and James so clearly says if you break one of these commandments quoting and contrasting only from the Ten you break them all and it's what we will be judged by. James 2:10-12. If you think that means 9 of the Ten and we can forget the one commandment God said Remember and is holy and blessed by God that is a silly argument. There's all kinds of scripture in the NT that reinforces Sabbath-keeping by Jesus and His followers. God did not place the Sabbath outside the ark with the other ordinances, laws and statues, God placed the Sabbath inside the ark personally written by God spoken by God and God claims it as MY holy day, the day to honor Him, thus saith the Lord Isa 58:13 It's a non-argument and sorry you don't see it this way. Maybe one day you will. I do not think going through this again is going to be fruitful so I will leave it as agree to disagree.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I am suprised that the clear text seems to go right over your head.
Its more puzzling, that you find that amusing.

I am surprised that you are surprised because it does not go over my head. You never answered the question, WHO WERE THEY?? I know, DO YOU? You keep obfuscating...that is what I find amusing.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The discussion from this poster's intention was to indicate this
case. Some difference in words do not effect some important matters
pertaining the experience of Christ.

I don't know why you're here as you came a bit late to the discussion.
And I will not be pulling your intention out of you like pulling teeth.

You can continue with little minimalist comments or you can
come out and write enough to let us know what overall position you're trying to convey.

My position has been pretty clear from the beginning.
Christians should not fall to the temptation of exalting the 7th day Sabbath over Christ.

WE were discussing those 2 DIFFERENT words. this discussion resulted from my response to your ONE post, not the entire discussion and thread...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I do hope you agree that Jesus worked on Sabbath (John5) though the 4th forbids it.

Are you kidding me? I have discussed this same issue 1000 times it seems! My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working. Do you not understand what that means? The Almighty does not need rest, Shabbat was made for man. Nowhere in Torah is doing good WORKS on Shabbat prohibited. Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill.

 

[oikonomia]

GDL,

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Rom. 14:5)

All one has to know is that "a day" means any day.
Persuasve sounding special pleading to exempt a certain day not withstanding.

"A day" means that any day qualifies.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

GDL,

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Rom. 14:5)

All one has to know is that "a day" means any day.
Persuasve sounding special pleading to exempt a certain day not withstanding.

"A day" means that any day qualifies.

in regards to the context of the passage which is fasting...

 

[oikonomia]

in regards to the context of the passage which is fasting...

You speak of the "context" of fasting because of what occupies your thought.
This is too subjective. This is too in favor of what you want the chapter to say.

If you can restrict the subject matter to fasting, that (you think)
furnishes your ground to exclude the 7th day Sabbath from his representative list.

The list is of practices not to be divisive and judgemental over in the healthy harmonious church life.

From Romans 14:1 through 15:13 the theme is Christians receiving each other.
He has to begin his examples somewhere. It happens that he first mentions those weak in faith
who insist in only eating vegetables.

Now him who is weak in faith receive, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his considerations.
One believes that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables. (Rom 14:1,2)

From practices in eating he then goes on to his next example, under that same principle of inclusiveness - regarding days as special.

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (v. 5)

Don't artifically restrict the "context" to just fasting.
Rather notice how both his examples are under the same theme - not judging one another, being persauded in yourself,
not being factious and divisive over your practice.

 

[oikonomia]

I am surprised that you are surprised because it does not go over my head. You never answered the question, WHO WERE THEY?? I know, DO YOU? You keep obfuscating...that is what I find amusing.

I answered your question about "WHO WHERE THEY??"

Anyone is who they not only WERE but are still - ANYONE.

This I say that no one may delude you with persuasive speech. (Col.2:4) "No one" is anyone.

Beware that no one carries you off as spoil through his philosophy. . . (v.8) "No one" is anyone.

Let no one defraud you by judging you unworthy of your prize, (v. 18) "No one" is anyone.

We don't need you to claim you have the inside story on the identities of "no one."