The Vanity of Knowledge

[Runningman]

I've spend most of my young adolescent and adult life trying to explain everything with logic. But no matter how much knowledge we have, it doesn’t fill the emptiness in our hearts and souls. So, let’s remember to not only love God with our minds, but with our whole hearts.

The following clip from Billy Graham really summarizes this point:

Support the YT channel with a like or subscribe if you enjoyed the video!

I don't really agree with Billy Graham on that point because he seems to strongly suggest people should stop trying to know and understand too much. The Bible can be a difficult book to understand and as we all know people often believe in their heart what the Bible doesn't even say. What feels right isn't really the correct way to come to God, but rather coming to God in Spirit and truth is the correct way. There is a truth and God is actually expecting us to seek it and know it.

 

[fhansen]

Really? The Jesus story is not really remarkable. There are loads of deity made flesh back from the dead stories in other religions.

And they read just like they are- as fanciful flights of mythology. The story of Jesus: life, death, and resurrection- is presented as matter-of-fact, while profound, historical happenings/truths as witnessed by a variety of people who were deeply affected and changed by it, to the extent that all but one of the original apostles, for example, died martyrs deaths as a result of telling it.

 

[comana]

And they read just like they are- as fanciful flights of mythology. The story of Jesus: life, death, and resurrection- is presented as matter-of-fact, while profound, historical happenings/truths as witnessed by a variety of people who were deeply affected and changed by it, to the extent that all but one of the original apostles, for example, died martyrs deaths as a result of telling it.

Dedication to a story does not make the story true. Any number of cults throughout history had believers wiling to and actually dying for their beliefs.

 

[partinobodycular]

historical happenings/truths as witnessed by a variety of people who were deeply affected and changed by it, to the extent that all but one of the original apostles, for example, died martyrs deaths as a result of telling it.

Part of the problem is that over time myths and legends become accepted as fact. For example, there's only evidence that at most three of the apostles died as martyrs, the rest of the claims of martyrdom are highly dubious. Unfortunately, once people... 'believe'... anything that fits the narrative becomes accepted as fact with any evidence to the contrary simply being rejected out of hand.

People think that "fake news" is a recent phenomenon, but actually it's been around a long, long time, you'll find it in myths, legends, and most lamentably... in religion. It seems as if once one 'believes' the truth no longer matters.

 

[fhansen]

Part of the problem is that over time myths and legends become accepted as fact. For example, there's only evidence that at most three of the apostles died as martyrs, the rest of the claims of martyrdom are highly dubious. Unfortunately, once people... 'believe'... anything that fits the narrative becomes accepted as fact with any evidence to the contrary simply being rejected out of hand.

People think that "fake news" is a recent phenomenon, but actually it's been around a long, long time, you'll find it in myths, legends, and most lamentably... in religion. It seems as if once one 'believes' the truth no longer matters.

We have evidence for some than others. But any dying for a cause are generally going to be either mentally disturbed, or very serious and convicted about the truth and importance of the cause. And we have much historical evidence of continued martyrdom of Christians who were unwilling to deny their faith..

 

[fhansen]

Dedication to a story does not make the story true. Any number of cults throughout history had believers wiling to and actually dying for their beliefs.

It might be better to give some examples-to know if were comparing apples to apples. But in any case, dying for what one believes at the very least gives testimony to the veracity of that faith from their perspective. Few will die for a known hoax=or for a questionable cause which they aren't fully convinced about. And I wouldn't consider mass suicide to be martyrdom BTW.

 

[comana]

It might be better to give some examples-to know if were comparing apples to apples. But in any case, dying for what one believes at the very least gives testimony to the veracity of that faith from their perspective. Few will die for a known hoax=or for a questionable cause which they aren't fully convinced about. And I wouldn't consider mass suicide to be martyrdom BTW.

Dying for a belief, whether by suicide or some one else’s hand, is really no different to me. Neither proves the veracity of the beliefs.

 

[Desk trauma]

Or God exists

So say theists of every flavor.

 

[Desk trauma]

It might be better to give some examples-to know if were comparing apples to apples. But in any case, dying for what one believes at the very least gives testimony to the veracity of that faith from their perspective

It only shows their depth of belief, it makes no comment on if that belief is true.

 

[Bradskii]

It might be better to give some examples-to know if were comparing apples to apples. But in any case, dying for what one believes at the very least gives testimony to the veracity of that faith from their perspective.

Martyrdom in Sikhism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Runningman]

Part of the problem is that over time myths and legends become accepted as fact. For example, there's only evidence that at most three of the apostles died as martyrs, the rest of the claims of martyrdom are highly dubious. Unfortunately, once people... 'believe'... anything that fits the narrative becomes accepted as fact with any evidence to the contrary simply being rejected out of hand.

People think that "fake news" is a recent phenomenon, but actually it's been around a long, long time, you'll find it in myths, legends, and most lamentably... in religion. It seems as if once one 'believes' the truth no longer matters.

True. It seems that any platform that can influence a lot of people will usually be used to disseminate misinformation. Really there isn't any exception to this I'm aware of.

The "church" is a particularly good example of this, unfortunately. There are over 40,000 Christian denominations, sub-denominations, sects, and cults around the world. There are over 100 versions of the Bible translated into English. Even the base manuscripts the Bible is translated from have textual variants that completely contradict each other.

Like you said, it's been going on for a long, long time.

 

[fhansen]

It only shows their depth of belief, it makes no comment on if that belief is true.

That was my point. In the case of the early Christian martyrs that means that they truly believed in the resurrection, for example, that they truly believed in the Christian message of love for fellow man, including their enemies, etc, enough to die for it as Jesus was said to have done.

 

[Desk trauma]

That was my point. In the case of the early Christian martyrs that means that they truly believed in the resurrection, for example, that they truly believed in the Christian message of love for fellow man, including their enemies, etc, enough to die for it as Jesus was said to have done.

So?

 

[partinobodycular]

In the case of the early Christian martyrs that means that they truly believed in the resurrection, for example, that they truly believed in the Christian message of love for fellow man, including their enemies, etc, enough to die for it as Jesus was said to have done.

I have a question. How many people who met the risen Jesus can actually be shown to have died as martyrs?

I think you'll find that that number is very, very small.

Now among those who 'believed' that Jesus rose from the dead that number is most certainly higher, but since they never actually met the risen Jesus their deaths tell us absolutely nothing about the veracity of the claim.

So, how many people can you actually name? How many of those martyrdoms which you find so convincing actually happened, and how many are just historical fallacies?

 

[Larniavc]

And they read just like they are- as fanciful flights of mythology. The story of Jesus: life, death, and resurrection- is presented as matter-of-fact, while profound, historical happenings/truths as witnessed by a variety of people who were deeply affected and changed by it, to the extent that all but one of the original apostles, for example, died martyrs deaths as a result of telling it.

Are you saying the story of Jesus is more remarkable than other supernatural bits of other religions?

 

[fhansen]

True. It seems that any platform that can influence a lot of people will usually be used to disseminate misinformation. Really there isn't any exception to this I'm aware of.

The "church" is a particularly good example of this, unfortunately. There are over 40,000 Christian denominations, sub-denominations, sects, and cults around the world. There are over 100 versions of the Bible translated into English. Even the base manuscripts the Bible is translated from have textual variants that completely contradict each other.

Like you said, it's been going on for a long, long time.

And yet we have history-the historical undertakings of the early church and, most importantly, perhaps, the testimony of the ECFS which gives a broad and virtually unanimous narrative of the basic beliefs and practices of that early church.

 

[fhansen]

Martyrdom in Sikhism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Alright, that was good. And yet that martyrdom seems to differ in its motivation-or certainly in its direct outcome, which in the case of Sikhism was a warrior cult of Sikhs. What often impressed surrounding societies, even if they disliked Christianity, was their love for each other and even for their enemies, which resulted in placing justice and altruism on the world map. Hospitals, that served the wider population, began to be built already in those early centuries, where able, where persecutions of Christians was sufficiently subdued The Christian faith produced an enormous amount of thought and writings all through the centuries, which was based on the inspiration received of a God of order and goodness. In fact, Christianity is a running commentary on existence and the meaning of human life, again, with goodness and order as the basis while evil and disorder are also options for man, a freedom which expresses itself in a myriad of ways whenever we place selfishness above justice and love.

That's why Christian impresses me, because of the basic ideal it gives to u\the world-a rather foreign idea which has produced far more goodness that otherwise in terms of elevating the value of human life, in building hospitals and orphanages, preserving and then developing education: the lower and upper, university, systems, promoting advances in the arts and sciences and the pursuit of excellence in general, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked: the list goes on and its gigantic in its impact.

 

[fhansen]

So?

The original point was that Christianity, from the beginning, was just fake news. My point was that, from the beginning, people who often first doubted became very strong believers who gave up much to become so. Even Christs own immediate disciples were dejected, demoralized, after his death and then later, after experiencing and being convinced of the resurrection, changed pretty much a full 180 degrees.

But we don't have to be impressed by any of the story. Jesus may not have ever existed for that matter. As far as history goes, we can't even prove our own birth with absolute certainty; someone can always raise some objection.

 

[fhansen]

Are you saying the story of Jesus is more remarkable than other supernatural bits of other religions?

Yes. When I read the Epic of Gilgamesh I don't believe, based on the storyline, itself, that the writer ever believed it-but that a work of fiction and partial-truths later became the basis of religious beliefs, as man, reasonably so. is always looking for an explanation and meaning for his existence.

 

[Desk trauma]

Alright, that was good. And yet that martyrdom seems to differ in its motivation-or certainly in its direct outcome, which in the case of Sikhism was a warrior cult of Sikhs. What often impressed surrounding societies, even if they disliked Christianity, was their love for each other and even for their enemies, which resulted in placing justice and altruism on the world map. Hospitals, that served the wider population, began to be built already in those early centuries, where able, where persecutions of Christians was sufficiently subdued The Christian faith produced an enormous amount of thought and writings all through the centuries, which was based on the inspiration received of a God of order and goodness. In fact, Christianity is a running commentary on existence and the meaning of human life, again, with goodness and order as the basis while evil and disorder are also options for man, a freedom which expresses itself in a myriad of ways whenever we place selfishness above justice and love.

That's why Christian impresses me, because of the basic ideal it gives to u\the world-a rather foreign idea which has produced far more goodness that otherwise in terms of elevating the value of human life, in building hospitals and orphanages, preserving and then developing education: the lower and upper, university, systems, promoting advances in the arts and sciences and the pursuit of excellence in general, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked: the list goes on and its gigantic in its impact.

Ah, it’s different because you believe it.