God's forknowledge and predistinaiton

[ByTheSpirit]

Well 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is about planting churches not love. The works of gold and precious stones are successful attempts and the works of hay & stubble are unsuccessful attempts. These are rewarded by the gifts we will receive in heaven. That’s why both those whose works were successful and those whose works are unsuccessful will still be saved because they were all building on the foundation of Christ. And it doesn’t matter if we didn’t have an opportunity to show love it just matters whether or not we had love for others.

Perhaps, I would just hesitate to say that love is a "requirement" of salvation. I guess it depends on how we define it. I love God and therefore believe in Him and want to obey Him, absolutely. But I have to show love to others before I die, that's kinda dicey I think. You're probably correct, truthfully. Multiple scriptures speak about the necessity of showing love. I can think of none better than the story Jesus gave in Matthew 25:31-46. That seems like a pretty clear indication that only those who show love will be saved. Again I think I prefer to leave that kind of judgement up to the Lord, for only He can see a person's heart.

So you're probably right, but I think my personal conviction is I'll let the Lord decide on this specific question.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Right, spoken by Jesus before His crucifixion. What did He say would happen after His crucifixion?

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Careful not to over emphasise one verse - later on John 12 we read this...

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes leading the Chosen to repentance...

Then right after that sentence he said that they are building up the wrath of God upon themselves because of their stubbornness and unrepentant heart.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I'm curious how you understand John 3:16 and others like it, since apparently He loves only the chosen.

Not so - His Love goes out to all but only some have the grace to accept it.

Without His love there would be no life period.

Even sinners love those who love them - and this is Agape in the Greek.

Everything around us is sustained by His Love but few want it of accept it's source.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Perhaps, I would just hesitate to say that love is a "requirement" of salvation. I guess it depends on how we define it. I love God and therefore believe in Him and want to obey Him, absolutely. But I have to show love to others before I die, that's kinda dicey I think. You're probably correct, truthfully. Multiple scriptures speak about the necessity of showing love. I can think of none better than the story Jesus gave in Matthew 25:31-46. That seems like a pretty clear indication that only those who show love will be saved. Again I think I prefer to leave that kind of judgement up to the Lord, for only He can see a person's heart.

So you're probably right, but I think my personal conviction is I'll let the Lord decide on this specific question.

Yes I agree Matthew 25:31-46 is a good example as well as James 2:14-26. The examples of works given in both of these derive from love. That’s why I don’t believe that works play a role in our salvation but instead the motivation behind those works, that motivation being love. Like you said a person may not have the opportunity to show love like the thief on the cross but I’d be willing to bet that if he had been released he would’ve shown love and because he proclaimed Jesus as his Lord & Savior, I believe Jesus knew his love and that’s why he was saved.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Then right after that sentence he said that they are building up the wrath of God upon themselves because of their stubbornness and unrepentant heart.

That is not referring to the chosen- so what is your point ?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes I agree Matthew 25:31-46 is a good example as well as James 2:14-26. The examples of works given in both of these derive from love. That’s why I don’t believe that works play a role in our salvation but instead the motivation behind those works, that motivation being love. Like you said a person may not have the opportunity to show love like the thief on the cross but I’d be willing to bet that if he had been released he would’ve shown love and because he proclaimed Jesus as his Lord & Savior, I believe Jesus knew his love and that’s why he was saved.

How come you attribute the love of God to man ????

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is not referring to the chosen- so what is your point ?

He’s talking to the same people.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He’s not speaking to one group in verse 4 then a different group in verse 5 they’re both to the same group.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How come you attribute the love of God to man ????

Because it’s a choice we must make. It’s not involuntary.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Can unbelievers speak in tongues? Do unbelievers have the gift of prophecy? Can unbelievers have faith so as to move mountains?

 

[Carl Emerson]

He’s talking to the same people.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He’s not speaking to one group in verse 4 then a different group in verse 5 they’re both to the same group.

I agree - it refers back to Romans 1

Such is the state of humanity - without His grace none would be saved.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Because it’s a choice we must make. It’s not involuntary.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Can unbelievers speak in tongues? Do unbelievers have the gift of prophecy? Can unbelievers have faith so as to move mountains?

One truely reborn has given up all to Him including so called free will.

This gives God permission to work through them His love not theirs.

There is no choice involved - the choice was made.

However one can stray from the truth for a season until He say's enough.

He can do this because you have given Him ownership of your life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree - it refers back to Romans 1

Such is the state of humanity - without His grace none would be saved.

Yes he’s talking about unbelievers but the point is that the reason for God’s patience is He’s giving them time to repent. That’s why Paul made that statement in Romans 9:22. The reason God is patient towards the vessels of wrath is to give them an opportunity to repent.

 

[BNR32FAN]

One truely reborn has given up all to Him including so called free will.

This gives God permission to work through them His love not theirs.

There is no choice involved - the choice was made.

However one can stray from the truth for a season until He say's enough.

He can do this because you have given Him ownership of your life.

James said that if someone strays from the truth and one of the brethren bring him back that brother has saved his soul from death.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

What you’re saying is that their soul was never in any danger of death.

 

[Carl Emerson]

James said that if someone strays from the truth and one of the brethren bring him back that brother has saved his soul from death.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

What you’re saying is that their soul was never in any danger of death.

No - James was addressing the gathered which would constitute wheat and tares.

Consider the Word through Jeremiah that the New Covenant would be distinctly different because it would involve His indwelling presence including the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord which seals the true believer against unrighteousness. Jer 32:40

 

[BNR32FAN]

No - James was addressing the gathered which would constitute wheat and tares.

Consider the Word through Jeremiah that the New Covenant would be distinctly different because it would involve His indwelling presence including the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord which seals the true believer against unrighteousness. Jer 32:40

I’m not sure how that applies. First of all the tares were planted by the evil one.

“Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭24‬-‭25‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Second, the soul of tares still dies.

James 5:20-21 is about someone who strayed from the truth. Tares haven’t strayed from the truth, they’re not believers which is why their soul will die. James said if one of the brethren stray from the truth and a brother “turns him BACK” he will save his soul from death. What are tares going to be turned back to, unbelief? You definitely can’t turn a tare back to belief because if they believed in the first place then they weren’t tares to begin with. So that doesn’t fit the situation described in the passage.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Carl Emerson]

I’m not sure how that applies. First of all the tares were planted by the evil one.

“Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭24‬-‭25‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Second, the soul of tares still dies.

James 5:20-21 is about someone who strayed from the truth. Tares haven’t strayed from the truth, they’re not believers which is why their soul will die. James said if one of the brethren stray from the truth and a brother “turns him BACK” he will save his soul from death. What are tares going to be turned back to, unbelief? You definitely can’t turn a tare back to belief because if they believed in the first place then they weren’t tares to begin with. So that doesn’t fit the situation described in the passage.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Consider this - Someone who is a Tare is not destined for salvation - but - such one can gather with the truely saved.

If a person gathering with the brethren is seen to be wandering from the truth and restored, they could be a Wheat or a Tare. In fact it can be hard to tell. So either way we are to encourage oneanother to righteousness.

In the case of an unbeliever in fellowship they may be encouraged to be born again and saved. So in this case they are saved from death.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Consider this - Someone who is a Tare is not destined for salvation - but - such one can gather with the truely saved.

If a person gathering with the brethren is seen to be wandering from the truth and restored, they could be a Wheat or a Tare. In fact it can be hard to tell. So either way we are to encourage oneanother to righteousness.

In the case of an unbeliever in fellowship they may be encouraged to be born again and saved. So in this case they are saved from death.

Yeah but is that what James is talking about here? He specifically said “if one turns him back”. Obviously James isn’t referring to a tare if he says that “if one turns him back he will save his soul from death”. Surely you would agree that James isn’t saying to turn a tare back to unbelief and you can’t turn a tare back to belief otherwise if they believed before they strayed they wouldn’t have been a tare to begin with. So that interpretation doesn’t fit the situation James described brother.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yeah but is that what James is talking about here? He specifically said “if one turns him back”. Obviously James isn’t referring to a tare if he says that “if one turns him back he will save his soul from death”. Surely you would agree that James isn’t saying to turn a tare back to unbelief and you can’t turn a tare back to belief otherwise if they believed before they strayed they wouldn’t have been a tare to begin with. So that interpretation doesn’t fit the situation James described brother.

I dont agree - there are folks in the church now, as there were then, who fellowship without being born again.

Such ones can do the 'Christian thing' and then slip back to former ways when the pressure comes on...

Folks getting along side may then lead them to salvation.

An other possibility is that a believer could slip away and be restored and the reference to death could be a matter of the state of the soul in life, rather than eternal death. Being a prodigal I know how that feels.

 

[Brightfame52]

I completely understand; I’m not confused.

I didn’t really see a challenge, as I didn’t see your scriptures to challenge the scriptures I listed. This is not a debate, but if you were trying to help me understand, you failed to use sound scriptures to explain.

You completely ignored all the scriptures I listed and the questions. So, who don’t understand?

Just because you didnt see a challenge doesnt negate it.

 

[Brightfame52]

I obviously disagree with you, in the notion that faith comes through grace. Your wording here is even more problematic, as it suggests that one can't believe until the Spirit regenerates them, which that to me is an even more unbiblical statement than faith is given by grace.

Look grace is a gift. It's freely given, but must be received. Every Christmas, presents are laid under the tree. Children did not pay for them, they are provided at the expense of someone else. But what happens if those gifts are never taken hold of and opened? They just sit there. They must be received by those to whom they are given. Faith is the receiving. In faith, I receive God's grace and am thus saved. I don't see how that is wrong.

Its plain as the noon day sun to me, , Paul preached, testified that we believe because of grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

I believe Grace here means the Spirit of regeneration.