God's forknowledge and predistinaiton

[ByTheSpirit]

What about love? Shouldn’t love be included into the equation?

Love is the main fruit of faith, but without faith we cannot love in a truly godly way. Faith is the seed, love is the fruit. Without the seed, there is no fruit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Love is the main fruit of faith, but without faith we cannot love in a truly godly way. Faith is the seed, love is the fruit. Without the seed, there is no fruit.

Right but both are necessary for salvation.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Believing is because of grace, so you put the cart before the horse Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

The word through, the prep dia means:

1. through
   1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
      1. by reason of
      2. on account of
      3. because of for this reason
      4. therefore
      5. on this account

One cannot believe except its caused by grace, the grace of the Spirits regeneration. The lost unregenerate man or person doesnt have salvation faith, he is dead spiritually and in the flesh, and they which are in the flesh cannot please God, Period Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I obviously disagree with you, in the notion that faith comes through grace. Your wording here is even more problematic, as it suggests that one can't believe until the Spirit regenerates them, which that to me is an even more unbiblical statement than faith is given by grace.

Look grace is a gift. It's freely given, but must be received. Every Christmas, presents are laid under the tree. Children did not pay for them, they are provided at the expense of someone else. But what happens if those gifts are never taken hold of and opened? They just sit there. They must be received by those to whom they are given. Faith is the receiving. In faith, I receive God's grace and am thus saved. I don't see how that is wrong.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Right but both are necessary for salvation.

I'd hesitate to say that love is "necessary" for salvation. Reason being is there are scriptures that say some will be saved even if all their works are burned up on the day of judgement. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Going back to the fruit analogy, fruit takes time to grow. If someone were to be born again and die a few moments later (like a deathbed confession), I don't think they will be excluded from heaven because they didn't show love to others.

Without the seed of faith, it's definite that a person cannot be saved.

Yet even as that seed is cared for, watered, and germinates, it will take time to grow and develop fruit. I just think it's a bit hasty to say, you have to show fruit to be saved. I'd leave that bit up to the Lord. Now, we should all strive to bear fruit, this is no excuse to not do so. Just an explanation that scripture says faith is what saves. Love is just an evidence of faith.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Believing is because of grace, so you put the cart before the horse Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

The word through, the prep dia means:

1. through
   1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
      1. by reason of
      2. on account of
      3. because of for this reason
      4. therefore
      5. on this account

One cannot believe except its caused by grace, the grace of the Spirits regeneration. The lost unregenerate man or person doesnt have salvation faith, he is dead spiritually and in the flesh, and they which are in the flesh cannot please God, Period Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul isn’t telling them that they cannot repent and believe, he’s telling them that they can’t please God if they don’t set their mind on the Spirit. You have to repent and believe before you can receive the Holy Spirit. Until you repent and believe you can set your mind on the Spirit because He doesn’t abide in you yet.

“For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭5‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Carl Emerson]

John 1:12-12 says

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right (power and authority) to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The cause for receiving the right, power, and authority to become a child of God is the act of receiving Christ. Being born not of the will of blood, flesh, or man, but of God means that they have become a new creation, born again, thru the Holy Spirit receiving a heart of circumcision. If they couldn’t receive Christ without first being given the right, power, and authority to do so then the statement becomes circular and those who do not receive Christ are not actually responsible for their unbelief and not deserving of condemnation.

Your position merits man in the matter of being born again - not God.

As Paul said, some are created for honour, some are not.

There is zero room for attributing any part of salvation to man.

That position is not 'circular' and is biblical.

By this truth the company of the saved are eternally grateful for the totally unmerited favour towards them.

I think this is more easily understood by prodigal's like myself - restored from a shipwrecked life, one has no reason to attribute any goodness to oneself.

The subtle seductive unrighteousness of the world, fuelled by the demonic is way more powerful than what any human can withstand without God's help.

We sinners rightly bow to a Holy God who has shown undeserved mercy to His chosen.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'd hesitate to say that love is "necessary" for salvation. Reason being is there are scriptures that say some will be saved even if all their works are burned up on the day of judgement. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Going back to the fruit analogy, fruit takes time to grow. If someone were to be born again and die a few moments later (like a deathbed confession), I don't think they will be excluded from heaven because they didn't show love to others.

Well 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is about planting churches not love. The works of gold and precious stones are successful attempts and the works of hay & stubble are unsuccessful attempts. These are rewarded by the gifts we will receive in heaven. That’s why both those whose works were successful and those whose works are unsuccessful will still be saved because they were all building on the foundation of Christ. And it doesn’t matter if we didn’t have an opportunity to show love it just matters whether or not we had love for others.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your position merits man in the matter of being born again - not God.

As Paul said, some are created for honour, some are not.

There is zero room for attributing any part of salvation to man.

That position is not 'circular' and is biblical.

By this truth the company of the saved are eternally grateful for he totally unmerited favour towards them.

I think this is more easily understood by prodigal's like myself - restored from a shipwrecked life, one has no reason to attribute any goodness to oneself.

The subtle seductive unrighteousness of the world, fuelled by the demonic is way more powerful than what any human can withstand without God's help.

We sinners rightly bow to a Holy God who has shown undeserved mercy to His chosen.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why is God enduring much patience with the vessels of wrath?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your position merits man in the matter of being born again - not God.

As Paul said, some are created for honour, some are not.

There is zero room for attributing any part of salvation to man.

That position is not 'circular' and is biblical.

By this truth the company of the saved are eternally grateful for the totally unmerited favour towards them.

I think this is more easily understood by prodigal's like myself - restored from a shipwrecked life, one has no reason to attribute any goodness to oneself.

The subtle seductive unrighteousness of the world, fuelled by the demonic is way more powerful than what any human can withstand without God's help.

We sinners rightly bow to a Holy God who has shown undeserved mercy to His chosen.

So you’re saying we’re saved before we believe and before we receive the Holy Spirit. We have to be saved in order to be saved. How is that not circular?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think this is more easily understood by prodigal's like myself - restored from a shipwrecked life, one has no reason to attribute any goodness to oneself.

There has never been a believer who wasn’t a prodigal son or daughter.

 

[Carl Emerson]

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why is God enduring much patience with the vessels of wrath?

A Holy God takes no pleasure in the deeds of the lost.

All are lost until He draws the chosen with His Love.

The patience of the Lord is our salvation.

His Love towards us is irresistible.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There has never been a believer who wasn’t a prodigal son or daughter.

Agree - but some are more prodigal than others.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So you’re saying we’re saved before we believe and before we receive the Holy Spirit. We have to be saved in order to be saved. How is that not circular?

Who said that ????

We are chosen before we are saved.

We are not saved before we are saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A Holy God takes no pleasure in the deeds of the lost.

All are lost until He draws the chosen with His Love.

The patience of the Lord is our salvation.

His Love towards us is irresistible.

That didn’t answer the question. Here’s a couple more examples of God’s patience.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭19‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now in light of these examples of God’s patience, why did God show patience towards the vessels of wrath mentioned in Romans 9?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Who said that ????

We are chosen before we are saved.

We are not saved before we are saved.

We were chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That didn’t answer the question. Here’s a couple more examples of God’s patience.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭19‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now in light of these examples of God’s patience, why did God show patience towards the vessels of wrath mentioned in Romans 9?

Patience towards the Chosen and patience towards the eternally lost is quite different.

No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them - patiently.

The rebellion of the eternally lost God has chosen to patiently tolerate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Patience towards the Chosen and patience towards the eternally lost is quite different.

No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them - patiently.

The rebellion of the eternally lost God has chosen to patiently tolerate.

But in Romans 2:4-5 Paul specifically says that God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them - patiently.

Right, spoken by Jesus before His crucifixion. What did He say would happen after His crucifixion?

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Carl Emerson]

But in Romans 2:4-5 Paul specifically says that God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance.

Yes leading the Chosen to repentance...

 

[ByTheSpirit]

A Holy God takes no pleasure in the deeds of the lost.

All are lost until He draws the chosen with His Love.

The patience of the Lord is our salvation.

His Love towards us is irresistible.

This is sad and really disappointing.

I'm curious how you understand John 3:16 and others like it, since apparently He loves only the chosen.

I mean if His love is irresistible, then surely those He loves will be drawn into a saving knowledge of Him. So God doesn't really love the world then, He just loves the ones He selects. Do I have that right?