Death

[Sorn]

Many Protestant people and some from Messianic backgrounds adhere to "soul sleep" but for me soul sleep is heresy. I am aware that verses may be plucked from scripture to "prove" the heresy but a careful reading of holy scripture in the light of the teaching of Christ cannot help but refute it; after all, our Lord said to the Sadducees, who denied the existence of spirits (of men) and angels, God is a God of the living and not of the dead, and he said that with reference to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob whom he maintained were alive and not asleep or non-existent as the Sadducees believed.

Soul sleep is just a euphemism for 'ceasing to exist' but they don't want to acknowledge that because then it raises other issues as per my previous posts

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, the soul is active during sleep, especially during the REM phase (rapid eye movement), that's when you dream, "soul sleep" is unscienfitic. And there're verses about the dead martyrs crying out for justice and the dead rich man being rejected by father Abraham, surely that's not sleep. Sudducees were the liberal progressives in ancient time, they didn't believe any supernatural miracles jsut like their modern counterparts.

There is also the transfiguration of the Lord, during which Moses (who had died) and Elijah (who was translated to heaven) appeared with Jesus in front of Peter, James, and John the apostles. These men, Moses and Elijah, were certainly alive when they soke with Jesus; they were not "the dead" or among "the dead", but living and able to converse with one of the living, namely Jesus Christ. When the matters you mention, the transfiguration, and Jesus teaching to the Sadducees is taken together then it is very hard to believe soul sleep in any form whatever.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Soul sleep is just a euphemism for 'ceasing to exist' but they don't want to acknowledge that because then it raises other issues as per my previous posts

Jehovah's witnesses are more consistent on the matter than are Seventh Day Adventists because Jehovah's witnesses think of death as essentially non-existence and the resurrection is, by them, conceived as Jehovah remembering the dead whom he liked/loved and re-creating them with their memories and personality intact except for forgetting the things that , in this world, caused mourning, crying, and sadness.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If our 'software' is just a file of info about us in some heavenly computer (or even in Gods memory), then when He uses that stored info after He has 'fixed' the hardware then what He is doing is making another 'you', ie a copy, the 1st copy or clone of you, but its not you.

He could use the info in the file He has that's marked 'ViaCrucis' to make 100 copies and have 100 ViaCrucis running around in heaven if He chose, clearly they could not all be you, in fact none of them would be, all just copies.
For it to really be you something that is you needs to survive your physical death, something that is necessary to have in a 'fixed' body and that can only be used once for it to be you

The analogy shouldn't be taken too literally.

As human beings we are our bodies, but we aren't just our bodies. There is something about us that is more than just material (though we certainly are material). Scripture talks about the animating breath, the soul or human spirit, and while it is the animating breath or nephesh/pneuma it is also more than just what could be called an "animal soul" i.e. the function of being alive. Scripture doesn't use the term, but philosophers and Christian theologians used the term "rational soul" to speak of the kind of soul human beings are/have, we are "thinking animals", rational creatures which are aware to the point that we can have a relationship with God and bear a moral responsibility before God and toward one another and the rest of creation.

Something about ourselves, with our sense of self, our moral responsibility, our relationality toward God and others, that survives bodily death; so that in Christ we do not truly die, but continue to live and have life in Christ and with Him in His presence.

At the resurrection the body is raised, healed, restored utterly and glorified/transfigured, sown decaying and mortal but raised incorruptible and immortal; sown in dishonor and raised in honor. The body, now in lowliness because of sin and death, is raised up in the glory of the Risen Christ to be as He is. And there is a restoration of the full human person. That which survives bodily death in Christ and our body transformed and glorified in Christ's image are restored together.

Familiar language that we use to talk about this is that the soul/spirit goes to God in heaven at bodily death, and then is restored to the body in the resurrection.

There won't be a copy of me in heaven, it will be me. There won't be a copy of my body in the resurrection, it will be my body. These weak and frail bones I have right now will be the bones that walk step by step under the loving care of God in the Age to Come, this skin I have now is the skin that will be with God and behold His glory in the Age to Come. Skin and bone and sinew not as it is now--poisoned by sin and death, and bearing the deathly weight of the old Adam in all my bodily members--but in Christ and as Christ is.

I, myself, body-and-soul, am alive in and with Christ now by faith, God will keep me in His presence even during the body's slumber, and I, body-and-soul shall dwell with God forever in the renewal of all things, world without end.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Sorn]

The analogy shouldn't be taken too literally.

As human beings we are our bodies, but we aren't just our bodies. There is something about us that is more than just material (though we certainly are material). Scripture talks about the animating breath, the soul or human spirit, and while it is the animating breath or nephesh/pneuma it is also more than just what could be called an "animal soul" i.e. the function of being alive. Scripture doesn't use the term, but philosophers and Christian theologians used the term "rational soul" to speak of the kind of soul human beings are/have, we are "thinking animals", rational creatures which are aware to the point that we can have a relationship with God and bear a moral responsibility before God and toward one another and the rest of creation.

Something about ourselves, with our sense of self, our moral responsibility, our relationality toward God and others, that survives bodily death; so that in Christ we do not truly die, but continue to live and have life in Christ and with Him in His presence.

At the resurrection the body is raised, healed, restored utterly and glorified/transfigured, sown decaying and mortal but raised incorruptible and immortal; sown in dishonor and raised in honor. The body, now in lowliness because of sin and death, is raised up in the glory of the Risen Christ to be as He is. And there is a restoration of the full human person. That which survives bodily death in Christ and our body transformed and glorified in Christ's image are restored together.

Familiar language that we use to talk about this is that the soul/spirit goes to God in heaven at bodily death, and then is restored to the body in the resurrection.

There won't be a copy of me in heaven, it will be me. There won't be a copy of my body in the resurrection, it will be my body. These weak and frail bones I have right now will be the bones that walk step by step under the loving care of God in the Age to Come, this skin I have now is the skin that will be with God and behold His glory in the Age to Come. Skin and bone and sinew not as it is now--poisoned by sin and death, and bearing the deathly weight of the old Adam in all my bodily members--but in Christ and as Christ is.

I, myself, body-and-soul, am alive in and with Christ now by faith, God will keep me in His presence even during the body's slumber, and I, body-and-soul shall dwell with God forever in the renewal of all things, world without end.

-CryptoLutheran

You are preaching to the converted here. Your post which i responded to portrayed you as advocating the 'soul sleep' (cease to exist) view of what happens at death & I was just highlighting that view actually does not give us much hope as it would not be 'us' proper that get resurrected.

At the end of the day when a person dies either something that is them survives death or it does not, no in between really.

Also our bodies are lowly because they are animal bodies, not because of sin. Our bodies die because of the corruption brought on by sin.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are preaching to the converted here. Your post which i responded to portrayed you as advocating the 'soul sleep' (cease to exist) view of what happens at death & I was just highlighting that view actually does not give us much hope as it would not be 'us' proper that get resurrected.

That wasn't the intent. I was hoping that "downloaded into the cloud" analogy would be recognized as our going to be with God in heaven; hoping that "cloud" would be viewed as a double meaning. The cloud as we use it in technology today, and also as an inference for heaven.

At the end of the day when a person dies either something that is them survives death or it does not, no in between really.

Also our bodies are lowly because they are animal bodies, not because of sin. Our bodies die because of the corruption brought on by sin.

I was thinking in terms of St. Paul who, in Romans 7, speaks of sin being in the bodily members. Paul talks about a "law of sin" that is in the body--sin is right there, right here, in a sense infecting even our own bodily members. I would describe that as concupiscence.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[eleos1954]

All of creation will be restored after the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

Romans 8:18-22 (NIV):

"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."

Yes, after the judgement of those in the 2nd resurrection ... and that happens after the 1,000 years that is spent in heaven.

 

[Diamond72]

Yes, after the judgement of those in the 2nd resurrection ... and that happens after the 1,000 years that is spent in heaven.

There are those who rule and reign with Christ for the 1,000 years. Revelation 20 (NIV) This reign is seen as a time of peace, justice, and fulfillment of God's promises.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

 

[RileyG]

I am going by what Wesley said. The sermon is online if you want to read it. From my perspective, it could be every atom in our body contains all of our memories and all of the information needed to resurrect us. Of course we know a lot more today than they knew back in Wesley's day.

...maybe this is slightly off topic,
(Yes. There's been some scientific hypothesis about that. For example, when someone gets a transplant and starts acting like or taking on the characteristics of the person they got it from. Our physical bodies can retain memories. It's an interesting topic).

 

[Diamond72]

Our physical bodies can retain memories. It's an interesting topic).

Very recent research shows that we can inherit the memories of our ancestors. We see this with people who had ancestors that were slaves. They say it is as if they can feel what their ancestors had to endure. They take this a step further to say our interaction with some people today can be a result of our ancestor's interaction with their ancestors.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

people today

People say many very strange and improbable things.

 

[bbbbbbb]

This reminds me of a recent conversation I had with a friend. He told me about another person who chose to die from heart trouble rather than get a heart transplant from another person who, as it turned out, was not of his race.

If some of what has been posted here, then some probably find the JW prohibition against blood transfusions to be solid, medically, not to mention the general disdain that the Church of Christ, Scientist has held against allopathic medicine.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, of course we don't know exactly what happens, but my approach is one to challenge those that think we die and cease to exist, also known as the 'soul sleep' people. If the only thing that remains of us when we die is information ABOUT us that God has then all He does is create a copy of us. Its our clone that gets eternal life not us, thats one reason why I do think we have souls/spirits etc that survive our physical death. So it really is us that get resurrected, not a clone.

Another possibility is that the "self" is a continuum of experience, as in Whitehead's Process philosophy.

I don't think soul sleep is metaphysically possible, because it implies a rupture in being.

 

[joymercy]

...maybe this is slightly off topic,
(Yes. There's been some scientific hypothesis about that. For example, when someone gets a transplant and starts acting like or taking on the characteristics of the person they got it from. Our physical bodies can retain memories. It's an interesting topic).

Can our bodies rise again if they have other peoples body parts in them?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Can our bodies rise again if they have other peoples body parts in them?

When one gets into the technicalities of the resurrection is can become ridiculous. People ask:

• how old will the resurrected be?
• how fit and attractive?
• will they have wings?
• could they survive in a vacuum?
• will their cells be made from the same atoms they has when they died?
• if so, what happens to atoms that have shared in several human being at the time of their death?
• will their brains be bigger or magically more efficient to make them capable of sustaining the knowledge of God?

...

 

[bbbbbbb]

When one gets into the technicalities of the resurrection is can become ridiculous. People ask:

• how old will the resurrected be?
• how fit and attractive?
• will they have wings?
• could they survive in a vacuum?
• will their cells be made from the same atoms they has when they died?
• if so, what happens to atoms that have shared in several human being at the time of their death?
• will their brains be bigger or magically more efficient to make the capable of sustaining the knowledge of God?

...

I have encountered these questions, and more. My answer to them is we simply do not and cannot know at this time. What we do know is primarily found in I Corinthians 15 and I am content with that.

 

[RileyG]

Can our bodies rise again if they have other peoples body parts in them?

Yes. Our God is a God of miracles.

 

[Dan Perez]

There is also the transfiguration of the Lord, during which Moses (who had died) and Elijah (who was translated to heaven) appeared with Jesus in front of Peter, James, and John the apostles. These men, Moses and Elijah, were certainly alive when they soke with Jesus; they were not "the dead" or among "the dead", but living and able to converse with one of the living, namely Jesus Christ. When the matters you mention, the transfiguration, and Jesus teaching to the Sadducees is taken together then it is very hard to believe soul sleep in any form whatever.

In Luke 16:23 all SOULS when to HADES , called HELL .

The BODY goes to the GRAVE .

The SPIRIT goes back to God that gave it , in Eccl 12:7 .

And where does the SOUL of the BODY OF CHRIST , go at death ?

dan p

 

[Sorn]

When one gets into the technicalities of the resurrection is can become ridiculous. People ask:

• how old will the resurrected be?
• how fit and attractive?
• will they have wings?
• could they survive in a vacuum?
• will their cells be made from the same atoms they has when they died?
• if so, what happens to atoms that have shared in several human being at the time of their death?
• will their brains be bigger or magically more efficient to make them capable of sustaining the knowledge of God?

...

• how old will the resurrected be?
  peak human condition s around 25 to 30 so they will look that old, perhaps even as early twenties.
  
  
• how fit and attractive?
  Very fit, don't know how the new bodies will operate so we don't know their endurance limits.
  People will be generally recognizable (thats the assumption anyway). Attractiveness is in the eye of the beholders and a complex area. Not sure how it will factor in the new bodies (& whatever changes God may or may not make to our psychology).
  
  
• will they have wings?
  Not likely, wings are needed to counteract gravity in an atmosphere, ie subject to physics. If Jesus could materialize inside closed rooms then it implies that some pretty cool ways of travelling may be available to us.
  
  
• could they survive in a vacuum?
  Probably, as long as its not a Dyson Cyclonic one, those things are killers
  
  
• will their cells be made from the same atoms they has when they died?
  Most likely will be made of some new material that follows new physics etc.
  
  
• if so, what happens to atoms that have shared in several human being at the time of their death?
  IMO, nothing, i don't think my individual atoms matter , ie my souls / spirit etc is separate from the matter that makes up my current body
  
  will their brains be bigger or magically more efficient to make them capable of sustaining the knowledge of God?
  Not sure what you mean by 'sustaining the knowledge of God'
  I imagine that amongst my new body / minds ability will be the ability to not forget stuff i learn, so i can take 1 guitar lesson per year & practice for 1 hour per year but I will still eventually become a guitar maestro. Same with learning tennis etc.
  Our new brains / minds will be able to hold a lot more info but we will never know as much as God, not even close i suspect.

 

[bbbbbbb]

• how old will the resurrected be?
  peak human condition s around 25 to 30 so they will look that old, perhaps even as early twenties.
  
  
• how fit and attractive?
  Very fit, don't know how the new bodies will operate so we don't know their endurance limits.
  People will be generally recognizable (thats the assumption anyway). Attractiveness is in the eye of the beholders and a complex area. Not sure how it will factor in the new bodies (& whatever changes God may or may not make to our psychology).
  
  
• will they have wings?
  Not likely, wings are needed to counteract gravity in an atmosphere, ie subject to physics. If Jesus could materialize inside closed rooms then it implies that some pretty cool ways of travelling may be available to us.
  
  
• could they survive in a vacuum?
  Probably, as long as its not a Dyson Cyclonic one, those things are killers
  
  
• will their cells be made from the same atoms they has when they died?
  Most likely will be made of some new material that follows new physics etc.
  
  
• if so, what happens to atoms that have shared in several human being at the time of their death?
  IMO, nothing, i don't think my individual atoms matter , ie my souls / spirit etc is separate from the matter that makes up my current body
  
  will their brains be bigger or magically more efficient to make them capable of sustaining the knowledge of God?
  Not sure what you mean by 'sustaining the knowledge of God'
  I imagine that amongst my new body / minds ability will be the ability to not forget stuff i learn, so i can take 1 guitar lesson per year & practice for 1 hour per year but I will still eventually become a guitar maestro. Same with learning tennis etc.
  Our new brains / minds will be able to hold a lot more info but we will never know as much as God, not even close i suspect.

I find it bizarre to believe that a stillborn baby will be resurrected as a 25-30 year old adult. How will anyone in heaven recognize that person?