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The Sabbath debate goes on, but should it?

SabbathBlessings

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Thanks for confirming my choice.
Strange you would quote Revelation, when you say its just riddles.

I believe through Jesus Christ we can understand Revelations. Scripture tells us we can.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

So I would not be so swift to brush under the rug these easy to understand scriptures Rev 14:12 Rev 17:12, Rev 22:14 these are the easy ones in Revelation. Others take more time to study but its worth the investment.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Can you point to the scripture that says we are to keep the nine commandments and the only commandment we are to forget is the one commandment God said “Remember” and is holy and blessed by God. That sounds like the teaching of another spirit Isaiah 8:20

God wrote Ten Commandments, not nine or 8 and no man has authority to undo what God placed together Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 Deut 4:13 because man is not above God, nor can man sanctify themselves, only God can Eze 20:12 but yet they try anyway
God gave the 10 commandments to Israel. It was His covenant between Him and Israel.

God did not give the 10 commandments for salvation. He already saved Israel by rescuing them from Egypt. God gave the Law for relationship purposes. It was Him saying if you love me you do this this and this.

As I said the covenant on Mount Sinai was between God and the house of Israel only. It was a marraige covenant.

There are many covenants in the Bible, people should pay attention to whom the covenant was to and when. Also people should notice that some covenants are one sided i.e. covenant of grace, its what the God will do irregardless of us, and then there are covenants that are two sided when God say I will do this if you obey me, i.e. the covenant of circumsition.

I recomment to every Christian to look at all the commandemts in the new testament. We live under the grace, not law, the law was inferior as it could never save.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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God gave the 10 commandments to Israel. It was His covenant between Him and Israel.

God gave the New Covenant to Israel too, are you going to write yourself out of God’s covenant promise? Jer 31:33, Heb 8:10
God did not give the 10 commandments for salvation.
Agreed. we do not keep the commandments to be saved, it is how a saved person lives Rev 14:12. The lost live differently than the saved because Jesus changes us from the inside out and we want to keep His commandments through love and faith Rom 3:31 1 John 5:3
He already saved Israel by rescuing them from Egypt. God gave the Law for relationship purposes. It was Him saying if you love me you do this this and this.
True, He said if you love Me, keep My commandments Exo 20:6 which is a theme throughout the NT 1 John 5:3, John 14:15 John 15:10
As I said the covenant on Mount Sinai was between God and the house of Israel only. It was a marraige covenant.
Yes, and we can be grafted into this marriage covenant though our faith. Gal 3:26-28
There are many covenants in the Bible, people should pay attention to whom the covenant was to and when. Also people should notice that some covenants are one sided i.e. covenant of grace, its what the God will do irregardless of us, and then there are covenants that are two sided when God say I will do this if you obey me, i.e. the covenant of circumsition.
We should just follow the scripture. Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments and Paul contrast this with the commandments of God and determined what matters is keeping God’s commandments 1 Cor 7:19
I recomment to every Christian to look at all the commandemts in the new testament. We live under the grace, not law, the law was inferior as it could never save.
According to Paul, grace is not a license to sin Romans 6:1-2 and sin is the transgression of God’s law 1 John 3:4 pointing to the Ten Romans 7:7 even in the NT, which is what Jesus came to save us from Mat 1:21, not in. Jesus and the disciples kept the commandments and advocated we do as well including the Sabbath commandment. Luke 4:16 John 15:10, Acts 13:42-44, Acts 18:4, James 2:10-12. The NT is filled with examples of Sabbath and commandment keeping. There is no scripture that says the Sabbath commandment ended and we are now commanded to keep the first day holy. Once God blesses something like He did with the Sabbath commandment, man cannot reverse Num 23:20 so one would need a thus saith the Lord to do away with the Sabbath, but instead the Lord says it continues forever for His people Isaiah 66:22-23.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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God gave the New Covenant to Israel too, are you going to write yourself out of God’s covenant promise? Jer 31:33, Heb 8:10
Just because He gave a new covenant to everyone including Israel, does not mean we have to keep the old one.
Jesus is a priest of order of Melchizedek who is superior to Abraham.
Yes, and we can be grafted into this marriage covenant though our faith. Gal 3:26-28
This verses do not talk about that. If you read Hosea you will see that God has divorced His wife Israel because of her unfaithfulness, but one day, by grace, He will take her back.

The Church did not replace Israel as some believe today. But one day, when God will finish His plans with the Church, He will turn His attention to the physical house of Israel again. And He is slowly doing so already, as ethnic Israel have their country again.


We should just follow the scripture. Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments and Paul contrast this with the commandments of God and determined what matters is keep God’s commandments 1 Cor 7:19
I did not say that the circumsition is part of 10 commandments, I used circumstion as an example of two-sided covenant.

Yes, we indeed should keep the Lord's commandment if we love Him.
Yes Jesus and His disciples kept the Sabbath, but that was before the resurraction, that was before the spilled blood, that was before the nee covenant.

“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). The rest offered on the Sabbath was now being offered in Christ.

Two passages in particular from the apostle Paul spell out the implications of Jesus’s lordship over the Sabbath. The first is Colossians 2:16–17:

Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

What Paul says here is remarkable, for he lumps the Sabbath together with food laws, festivals like Passover, and new moons. All of these constitute shadows that anticipate the coming of Christ. And since Christ has now come, observing the Sabbath is no longer a matter of obedience or disobedience. Rather, Paul says, “Let no one pass judgment on you.”

Romans 14:5 holds a similarly striking claim. Consider Paul’s words here alongside a typical old-covenant statement about the Sabbath.

You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. (Exodus 31:14)

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. (Romans 14:5)

If an old-covenant Israelite esteemed “all days alike,” he might be stoned to death (Numbers 15:32–36). Yet Paul evidently felt no need to impose the Sabbath command on his Gentile converts. Some in Rome, it seems, wanted to keep the Sabbath (and so esteem “one day as better than another”) — perhaps Jewish Christians eager to maintain the traditions of their fathers. Paul had no issue with those Christians, so long as they refrained from pressuring others to imitate them or suggested that salvation hinged on obedience to the Sabbath

For the sake of Christian freedom and mutual love, Paul says simply and remarkably, “Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind” (Romans 14:5).
Therefore no, Christians do not need to keep the Sabbath.
 
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BobRyan

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Just because He gave a new covenant to everyone including Israel, does not mean we have to keep the old one.
Fine - the New Covenant - as we all agree.

Have you read it?

We have -- it is in Heb 8:7-12 and also in Jer 31:31-34 -- the Hebrews 8 text is a verbatim quote of the NEW Covenant from Jer 31. It is the same in the NT as it was in the OT.

Do you know what the Bible says the New Covenant actually is "I will make NEW Covenant... THIS IS the Covenant I will make".

It includes the parts that you seem to be objecting to.
 
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BobRyan

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Just because He gave a new covenant to everyone including Israel, does not mean we have to keep the old one.
Jesus is a priest of order of Melchizedek who is superior to Abraham.

This verses do not talk about that. If you read Hosea you will see that God has divorced His wife Israel because of her unfaithfulness, but one day, by grace, He will take her back.

The Church did not replace Israel as some believe today. But one day, when God will finish His plans with the Church, He will turn His attention to the physical house of Israel again. And He is slowly doing so already, as ethnic Israel have their country again.



I did not say that the circumsition is part of 10 commandments, I used circumstion as an example of two-sided covenant.

Yes, we indeed should keep the Lord's commandment if we love Him.
Yes Jesus and His disciples kept the Sabbath, but that was before the resurraction, that was before the spilled blood, that was before the nee covenant.

“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). The rest offered on the Sabbath was now being offered in Christ.

Two passages in particular from the apostle Paul spell out the implications of Jesus’s lordship over the Sabbath.
One is in Acts 13 where AFTER the Jews leave the synagogue where Paul has just preached the Gospel to BOTH gentiles and Jews - it is the GENTILES that ask Paul to schedule MORE Gospel preaching -- on the NEXT Sabbath. (instead of on the next DAY.)

Two is in Acts 18:4 where "Every Sabbath" Paul is in worship service reaching the Gospel to both gentiles and Jews.

And of course in Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth.
The first is Colossians 2:16–17:

Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink
Indeed as we see even before the cross Matt 7 "Judge not that you be not judged"
Romans 14:5 holds a similarly striking claim. Consider Paul’s words here alongside a typical old-covenant statement about the Sabbath.
Rom 14 - a chapter were the weekly Sabbath is not mentioned at all
If an old-covenant Israelite esteemed “all days alike,” he might be stoned to death (Numbers 15:32–36).
You have misread Rom 14 regarding those Lev 23 annual holy days approved of in the Bible.
It says "one man observes one day above another while another man observes every day" ... there is no "observes no day" in Rom 14.

By contrast Gale 4:8-9 condemns even ONE observance of a pagan holy day.

IN Acts 15 - a key element to the solution for gentiles is that they are hearing Moses preached "every Sabbath in the Synagogues" just as we see in the case of gentiles - in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 ...
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Indeed as we see even before the cross Matt 7 "Judge not that you be not judged
I am judging no one, I am just explaing why Christians do not have to keep the Sabbath because the Sabbath was given to Israel as a covenant sign, and Israel was commanded to rest on the seventh day. Israel was called upon to observe the Sabbath in remembrance of the Lord’s work in delivering them as slaves from Egyptian bondage (Deut. 5:15). Thus, the Sabbath is tied to Israel’s covenant with the Lord, for it celebrates her liberation from slavery. The Sabbath, then, is the sign of the covenant between the Lord and Israel (Exod. 31:12–17; Ezek. 20:12–17).

The Sabbath, as a covenant sign, celebrated Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, but the Exodus points forward, according to New Testament writers, to redemption in Christ. Believers in Christ were not freed from Egypt, and hence the covenant sign of Israel does not apply to them.


Rom 14 - a chapter were the weekly Sabbath is not mentioned at all
The most prominent day in the Jewish calendar was the weekly Sabbath. Where do it say it's a different Sabbath?
And of course in Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth
Isiah 66:23 means that they will worship God continuously. There will be one eternal day.


Two is in Acts 18:4 where "Every Sabbath" Paul is in worship service reaching the Gospel to both gentiles and Jews.
Of course to he would preach in synagogues on Sabbath, when else would Jews gather to worship?
1 corin 9 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

Paul even rebuked Galatians going back to the Law. Christianity and Judaism do not mix.

If someone wants to set aside the Sabbath as a special day, it's ok, as long as they do not require it for salvation or insist that other believers agree with them, because no where Jesus commands us to keep the Sabbath.
 
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Clare73

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They're not opposed to one another you can have more than one dimension to the Sabbath day it's not an either or choice
As in Dt 5:15, where it is a type/pattern of our redemption by Jesus Christ (Heb 4:9), in addition to our rest in gospel grace?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Just because He gave a new covenant to everyone including Israel, does not mean we have to keep the old one.
Jesus is a priest of order of Melchizedek who is superior to Abraham.
You’re right, we don’t have to keep anything if we don’t want to, but Gods people keep God’s commandments through love and faith. 1 John 5:3, Rev 14:12 Rom 3:31 John 15:10
Yes Jesus and His disciples kept the Sabbath, but that was before the resurraction, that was before the spilled blood, that was before the nee covenant.
The disciples kept the Sabbath decades after the cross. In fact, they kept every Sabbath teaching and preaching God’s Word Acts 13:42-44, Acts 18:4 just as Jesus told them to observe everything He commanded them. This puts a monkey-wrench in the teaching that the Sabbath commandment ended at the cross, because it’s a false teaching leading people to break one of God’s commandments. The Lord also rebukes this teaching as we see the Sabbath being kept for eternity for God’s people. Isaiah 66:22-23
“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). The rest offered on the Sabbath was now being offered in Christ.
Christ is not a commandment or a day, He is our Creator. This is such a sad teaching and do you see how tricky the other spirit is- God gave us a commandment to obey, to keep the Sabbath day holy and some how that is turned into Jesus doing something for us and we can ignore His written and spoken Word.
Two passages in particular from the apostle Paul spell out the implications of Jesus’s lordship over the Sabbath. The first is Colossians 2:16–17:
If you back up to Col 2:14 KJV provides the context to this passage, which has nothing to do with the Sabbath commandment, that is holy and blessed, which is not the definition of contrary or against.. Ordinances are not commandments Neh 9:13 and handwritten is not finger written by God. Context doesn’t fit and Paul does not have the authority to countermand one of God’s commandments that can’t be edited. Deut 4:2. Once God blesses something man cannot reverse Num 23:20 so you would need a thus saith the Lord to do away with the Sabbath commandment and there is no such Text

Here’s a detailed thread that break this passage down- if seeking for the Truth in God’s Word I would recommend you dig a little deeper.
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-lies-about-god’s-word.8247236/#post-76690737
Romans 14:5 holds a similarly striking claim. Consider Paul’s words here alongside a typical old-covenant statement about the Sabbath.
Did you know in all of Romans 14 there is not one mention of the Sabbath commandment- sadly another surface conclusion.

Here’s another post that breaks this down…

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-lies-about-god’s-word.8247236/#post-76690763

You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. (Exodus 31:14)
Curious why did you only reference the Sabbath, the same penalty for adulterers Leviticus 20:10

Does this mean thou shalt not commit adultery ended too?

The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23- sin is defined as breaking God’s law even in the New Covenant Romans 7:7 1 John 3:4- Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21 not in them. Through Jesus we can receive eternal life and once Jesus changes us, we are free from our bondage of sin (breaking God’s law) and free to walk in Christ obeying His commandments through love and faith 1 John 5:3, Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The 10 commandments were given to Israel on Mount Sinai, not to gentiles.

We do not follow the Mosaic Law, that was given to Isral for specific time.

We live under grace and not the law. We follow Jesus' commandments. Lord Jesus did command 9 out of 10 things from the 10 commandments, Sabbath was not one of them.
So you believe there IS law. What is sin then? If there is not law then no sin and no need for grace.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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As I said the covenant on Mount Sinai was between God and the house of Israel only. It was a marraige covenant.

We live under the grace, not law, the law was inferior as it could never save.
The new Covenant is also a marriage covenant, Yeshua being our bridegroom. Instituted at the Last Supper...and you gentiles are grafted in...
 
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Adventist Dissident

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NT teaching, please.
  1. The scriptures say that we are priests, I will assume you know the texts since you are a Christian and do not have my bible right in front of me. In Revelation, the church is represented by the candlesticks and Christ is walking among them. The prayers of the saints are represented by the Altar of incense in Revelation, as well. this is the church temple sanctuary connection
  2. In Hebrews 9, Scripture says Christ is the High Priest of the Good things that have come vs.11, He is the Mediator of the New Covenant, he filled the type of the Red Heffer so that we could be cleansed from dead work and serve the living God, vs.14. He is Also fulfilling the Type of Moses setting up a new Sanctuary. This is more Church Temple Connection
  3. Finally, he is a High Preist after the order of Melkesidek, not after the Levitical priesthood. Why is that distinction made? the Melkesidek priesthood was the original priesthood from the Garden, it was the king/priest, both ruler and representative. ruler of this world and representative before God. Just like Adam. There is one connection to the garden, in fact, Jesus is called the New Adam. 1 Cor15:45 Just like God wanted Adam & Eve to be "fruitful & multiply" Gen 1:28. So Christ wants the same for his Chruch. "I have come that they might have life and have it more abundantly John 10:10
  4. Adam was the caretaker of the Garden, the place of God's presence, the place of God's Blessing, the Place of God's Sovereignty and Submission to God. Christ is the caretaker of the church, the place of God's presence, the place of God's Blessing, the Place of God's Sovereignty, and the Place of Submission to God.
  5. The sign of this original sovereignty was the Rest of the Seventh-day. Gen 2:1-3 along as he obeyed he could enjoy the Blessing. Because of Christ's obedience, we can now enjoy the blessing of His obedience. enter back into rest even though we are not always obedient. We can enjoy the blessing of his obedience. The sign of His restored sovereignty is the Sabbath Day Isa 66:23
  6. The 7th day marked the Sovereignty of God, his rulership, it also marked the time of his visitation. In Genesis 2 Adam is placed in the Garden and then Eve is created to help him. Gen 3 opens up and God is nowhere around. After the temptation, God visits in the cool of the evening and comes walking, a metaphor for submission, in the Garden. This visitation is mostly on the 7th day. We see this in Exodus 16 & 20, and also in the Gospels when Jesus comes appears and does his miracles they are all on the 7th day. Christ specifically chooses to perform miracles, which are acts of sovereignty over the creation, on the Sabbath day. When Christ Appears Good things happen, sin is reversed, and death disappears. So Sabbath from the Garden, Sabbath in Exodus, Sabbath in the Gospels, Sabbath in the Chruch, and Sabbath in the 1000 year all set the time & expectation of the Encounter with God.
  7. The Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, Sets the standard for the Character of God and the standard for leadership in the Church & Home. Commandments 1-3 say God is first, God is not to be replaced by anything else, and God is not misrepresented. Then the fourth commandment says "God is represented by the Garden of Eden". God uses his power to prosper and benefit his people. The implication is that you are to do the same. How God uses His power, you are to use your power. Then he gives power to people, Father & Mother, with the implication that they are to use power like God to create good and have a healthy relationship, to be generous, and kind and good to people. Leadership has the responsibility of creating the environment so that people can prosper, "be fruitful and multiply".
 
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BobRyan

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The first is Colossians 2:16–17:

Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink
Indeed as we see even before the cross Matt 7 "Judge not that you be not judged"
I am judging no one, I am just explaing why Christians do not have to keep the Sabbath
I am not saying you are judging anyone. I am saying that the "let no one judge you" statement in Col 2 - is the other side of the same coin in Matt 7 "do not judge". This is not something "new" as if "before" you were supposed to let others judge you on what you eat or drink etc.

Col 2 is very specifically talking about "making stuff up" and judging others in regard to things made up.

Col 2:8 See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, rather than in accordance with Christ

6 Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Take care that no one keeps defrauding you of your prize by delighting in humility and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man?

because the Sabbath was given to Israel as a covenant sign
Is 66:23 Sabbath for MANKIND - for all eternity in the New Earth -- "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"
Mark 2:27 Sabbath made for MANKIND
Gen 2:2-3 all mankind - is given the Sabbath on the 7th day of creation week.
Is 56:6-8 - GENTILES specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
, and Israel was commanded to rest on the seventh day. Israel was called upon to observe the Sabbath in remembrance of the Lord’s work
And the NEW Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 and in Heb 8:6-12 is just for Israel.


The most prominent day in the Jewish calendar was the weekly Sabbath.
Lev 23 is a list of annual Sabbaths. All of the annual Sabbath were 'given in' animal sacrifices and offerings that ended at the cross. This is not true of Gen 2:2-3 when the day was sanctified and set apart for all mankind to observe.
And also not true in Ex 16 - where the Sabbath was specifically singled out without any offering or sacrifice.
And also not true in Ex 20:8-11 where no sacrifice or offering is included in the observance.
And also not true in Lev 23:2-3 where no sacrifice or offering is mentioned for weekly Sabbath observance
Of course to he would preach in synagogues on Sabbath, when else would Jews gather to worship?
Well it is Gentiles and JEWS in Acts 13, Acts 17 and Acts 18:4 -- and it is "every Sabbath". So that means that the gospel accepting gentiles in Acts 13 asked Paul for MORE Gospel preaching on the NEXT Sabbath -- but first they wait for the Jews to LEAVE the synagogue then they make that request of Paul.

What is missing here is "more gospel tomorrow on week-day-1 your day of worship".

EVERY weekly day of worship mentioned in the NT is Sabbath -- is the 7th day.
1 corin 9 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews.
Then those gentiles would have been asking for a week-day-1 service to hear more gospel in Acts 13. Clearly there is no NT basis for "only Jews evangelized by Paul on Sabbath". I guess we all know that.
Paul even rebuked Galatians going back to the Law.
He never did that. What he rebuked them for was doing things that the Jews "made up" that was not a part of scripture at all.

So then in Acts 10 Peter says "you know how unlawful it is for a Jew to eat with gentiles" -- well guess what? that is not a law in the actual Bible. it was stuff the Jews were making up.
Christianity and Judaism do not mix.
All the Christian leaders in the NT were Jews. Paul admits that he is a member of what is known as a "sect" of the Jews.

The whole reason that Jews were chasing Christians around to stop their evangelism instead of chasing all gentiles around to stop their gentile religions - is that the Christians were viewed as a sect of Judaism.

EVEN when put on Trial the Romans admit that the dispute between Christian Jews like Paul and the non-Christian Jews had to do with details related to Biblical laws/doctrine/teaching.
 
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Were the Galatians originally Jews or Pagans???
paul did not rebuke them for going back to the law. He rebuked them for thinking that the law was now a means of reconciliation with God. Christ had already done that. The Jews were saying you are not reconciled because you are not doing everything the right way, so God cannot bless you. Well of course Paul would have a problem with that. the holy spirit was poured out on them so they did not need to worry about that. Paul is not saying do a way with all law. that goes directly against the N.C. promise to write the Law in your heart.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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paul did not rebuke them for going back to the law. He rebuked them for thinking that the law was now a means of reconciliation with God. Christ had already done that. The Jews were saying you are not reconciled because you are not doing everything the right way, so God cannot bless you. Well of course Paul would have a problem with that. the holy spirit was poured out on them so they did not need to worry about that. Paul is not saying do a way with all law. that goes directly against the N.C. promise to write the Law in your heart.
The Galatians were former pagans...

Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?
 
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Clare73

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The new Covenant is also a marriage covenant, Yeshua being our bridegroom. Instituted at the Last Supper...and you gentiles are grafted in...
while the Jews were cut off.
 
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