This is my body.

[Jonathan_Gale]

The ritual in Leviticus wasn't symbolic. If you didn't do the Passover exactly as the instruction said, you died, according to the story.

I was referring to the animal sacrificial system. Isn't it written somewhere in Isaiah that God was very displeased with the Israelites' offering without true repentence? And in the same spirit, Jesus flipped the tables and drive out the livestocks in the temple?

 

[FireDragon76]

I was referring to the animal sacrificial system. Isn't it written somewhere in Isaiah that God was very displeased with the Israelites' offering without true repentence? And in the same spirit, Jesus flipped the tables and drive out the livestocks in the temple?

That's why we have a confession of sin and passing of the peace. (Mat 5:24)

Sacraments aren't regarded as magic by any Christian, we don't believe they work apart from faith. If you receive them unworthily, then they don't do you any good.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

That's why we have a confession of sin and passing of the peace. (Mat 5:24)

Sacraments aren't regarded as magic by any Christian, we don't believe they work apart from faith. If you receive them unworthily, then they don't do you any good.

Yes, but aren't those sacraments at least a sign of penance or a token of repentance? To alleviate our guilt and make us feel better? Of course, we can't rely on that and grow accustomed to that, for the only true sacrament is Christ on the cross, no other sacrament can absolve us from our sins. Back in Exodus, Israelites were told to roast the lamb and eat the flesh, that's what Jesus was referring to when he proclaimed that we must eat his flesh, and the general audience didn't get it and deem it as offensive.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, but aren't those sacraments at least a sign of penance or a token of repentance?

No. They are not good works we do to merit God's forgiveness.

To alleviate our guilt and make us feel better?

And preaching the Gospel in general couldn't potentially do that, also?

Of course, we can't rely on that and grow accustomed to that, for the only true sacrament is Christ on the cross, no other sacrament can absolve us from our sins. Back in Exodus, Israelites were told to roast the lamb and eat the flesh, that's what Jesus was referring to when he proclaimed that we must eat his flesh, and the general audience didn't get it and deem it as offensive.

Well, if our worship offends you, you don't have to join us. Meanwhile, we'll continue to do things the way they have been done for the last 2,000 years.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Well, if our worship offends you, you don't have to join us. Meanwhile, we'll continue to do things the way they have been done for the last 2,000 years.

Hey, what are we talking about? I absolutely meant no offense to anybody. All I did was just describe the gist of a particular portion in the Scripture.

 

[FireDragon76]

Hey, what are we talking about? I absolutely meant no offense to anybody. All I did was just describe the gist of a particular portion in the Scripture.

And we read the same Scriptures and come to very different conclusions.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

And we read the same Scriptures and come to very different conclusions.

Well, I remember a sermon by pastor John MacArthur that these OT ceremonies and rituals are word pictures, like children's book with illustrations for educational purpose, ultimately we as God's royal priesthood are to be offered as a living sacrifice.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well, I remember a sermon by pastor John MacArthur that these OT ceremonies and rituals are word pictures, like children's book with illustrations for educational purpose, ultimately we as God's royal priesthood are to be offered as a living sacrifice.

Uh huh... I don't follow John MacArthur's religion. He's a fundamentalist Baptist. I am not.

Living sacrifice is right, but has nothing to do with whether our sacraments are valid or not. It's kind of ironic because that is part of one of the Eucharistic prayers we use at communion, in fact.

It's not an either/or thing for us. We can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Uh huh... I don't follow John MacArthur's religion. He's a fundamentalist Baptist. I am not.

Living sacrifice is right, but has nothing to do with whether our sacraments are valid or not. It's kind of ironic because that is part of one of the Eucharistic prayers we use at communion, in fact.

It's not an either/or thing for us. We can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

Neither do I follow everything from him, I prescribe to messianic Judaism, I only follow those who teach the bible and build their worldview based on the Torah, the first five books.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Neither do I follow everything from him, I prescribe to messianic Judaism, I only follow those who teach the bible and build their worldview based on the Torah, the first five books.

What about the 27 books of the new testament? Do they have a place in this system of belief you subscribe to?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

What about the 27 books of the new testament? Do they have a place in this system of belief you subscribe to?

NT is the fulfillment of the OT, Jesus came not to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill it. Torah is the foundation of the whole bible, there’s no way to know what the 27 books are talking about and who Jesus really is without the set up in the OT.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

NT is the fulfillment of the OT, Jesus came not to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill it. Torah is the foundation of the whole bible, there’s no way to know what the 27 books are talking about and who Jesus really is without the set up in the OT.

Odd that you say that; It seems to me that one cannot understand the Torah without seeing Jesus in the gospels.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Odd that you say that; It seems to me that one cannot understand the Torah without seeing Jesus in the gospels.

It’s like season 1 and season 2 of a tv show, or volume 1 and volume 2 of a novel, 2 continues from 1, 1 foreshadows 2, lots of loose ends are tied up in 2.

 

[FireDragon76]

Odd that you say that; It seems to me that one cannot understand the Torah without seeing Jesus in the gospels.

The OT is just the prologue, that is how I understand it as an Evangelical in the European tradition (whatever "Evangelical" means in the American sense anymore seems to be quite different). It is not the foundation of the Bible, the person of Christ is.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The OT is just the prologue, that is how I understand it as an Evangelical in the European tradition (whatever "Evangelical" means in the American sense anymore seems to be quite different). It is not the foundation of the Bible, the person of Christ is.

The person of Christ is the perfect embodiment of the Torah, the living and breathing WORD of God, all the patriarchs from Abel, Noah, Abraham to Moses are all prototypes of Christ, there's no conflict between the two, so of course, Jesus is the foundation, I never said he isn't. But if to know the real Jesus apart from all the fake ones, you have to read and understand that prologue to know who he really is.

You know, Jesus once asked the disciples, "Who do people say I am?" Disciples gave him the reports, "Elijah, John the Baptist, Jeremiah or some other prophet." "But who do you say I am?" "You're the Christ, the Son of the Living God." The same question could be raised in a modern way - "Who do people say I am?" "A hippie, a communist, a social activist, a Jewish rabbi, a self-help guru, a cult leader." "Where did you hear that?" "from the pulpit, from Christian radios, from the Chosen series, from New York best seller books." "But who do you say I am?" The answer is in the OT, the original word of God, that's where the true character of Christ was set up.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The person of Christ is the perfect embodiment of the Torah

I can recall Jesus saying
I AM

• the way
• the truth
• the life
• the door
• the vine
• the Son of God
• the bread of life
• the light of the world
• the good shepherd
• the Resurrection
• the first and the last

and some others.
But I do not recall Jesus ever saying
I AM the Law.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I can recall Jesus saying
I AM

• the way
• the truth
• the life
• the door

and some others.
But I do not recall Jesus ever saying
I AM the Law.

In the beginning was the Word ... the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
I come not to abolish but to fulfill the law.
Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In the beginning was the Word ... the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
I come not to abolish but to fulfill the law.
Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!

You realise that those sentences do not have "I am the Law" in them?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You realise that those sentences do not have "I am the Law" in them?

Jesus is the Word of God (Rev. 19:13), and the Word is the law.

John 1:1 from an Hebraic perspective | AHRC

In Modern Western philosophy the focus is on the individual, but in Ancient Hebrew philosophy the focus is on community.

www.ancient-hebrew.org

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus is the Word of God (Rev. 19:13), and the Word is the law.

John 1:1 from an Hebraic perspective | AHRC

In Modern Western philosophy the focus is on the individual, but in Ancient Hebrew philosophy the focus is on community.

www.ancient-hebrew.org

no, the word is λογος and Law is תּורה