The Sabbath debate goes on, but should it?

[Soyeong]

Jesus told Peter

19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

[18] "Thou art Peter": As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ; so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz., that he to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, St. John 1. 42, should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be, next to Christ himself, the chief foundation stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

[18] "Upon this rock": The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built: Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ, by building his house, that is, his church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder, [Matt 7:24-25].

[18] "The gates of hell": That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself, or his agents. For as the church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock; so the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress, the gates of which, that is, the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the church of Christ.

[19] "Loose upon earth": The loosing the bands of temporal punishments due to sins, is called an indulgence; the power of which is here granted.

Binding and loosing refers to having the authority to restrict and permit things in accordance with the Torah, but does not refer to having the authority to make changes to it in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2.

The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" and it is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to Israel in the wilderness, so that is when the church began. Jesus was referring to rebuilding the church in accordance with prophesies about rebuilding David's fallen tents. In Acts 15:16-18, they saw the inclusion of Gentiles as being part of the rebuilding of Israel in fulfillment of prophecy, not as being a brand new entity that was separate from Israel.

Jesus also said:

13 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men. 14 You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house.

16 So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. 17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[17] "To fulfill": By accomplishing all the figures and prophecies; and perfecting all that was imperfect.

[18] "Amen": That is, assuredly of a truth. This Hebrew word, amen, is here retained by the example and authority of all the four Evangelists. It is used by our Lord as a strong asseveration, and affirmation of the truth.

[20] "The scribes and Pharisees": The scribes were the doctors of the law of Moses: the Pharisees were a precise set of men, making profession of a more exact observance of the law: and upon that account greatly esteemed among the people.

To fulfill the law means "to cause God's will (as made known through His law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo). The Pharisees were not correctly teaching how to obey the Torah, so Jesus spent the rest of the chapter fulfilling it six times by teaching how to correctly obey it as it should be. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees were and he never criticized them for obeying it, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or not obeying it correctly, like he did throughout the rest of Matthew 5. In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus said that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their level of obedience to it, but rather he was calling them to a higher level of obedience that was in accordance with its weightier matters.

So Peter was given broad authority. Whatsoever thou shalt bind upon the Earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon the Earth shall be loosed in heaven.
It’s funny that you mention adultery. What does that mean to you? Christ taught us that we cannot even look upon a woman with lust and not be guilty of adultery.

Peter was not given the authority to countermand God, so he did not have the authority to command to commit adultery instead, and if he had tried to do make changes to what God commanded, then we should follow God instead of Him because the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man. If we correctly understand what is being prohibited by the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and coveting in our hearts, then we won't look at a woman with lust in our hearts, so Jesus was not sinning by making changes to the law, but rather he was fulfilling the law by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended.

The most prominent group of Sabbath keepers that I know, the SDA, allows contraception in direct contradiction to Christ’s command, yet the Church founded by Christ through the rock of Peter declares it intrinsically evil. Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 2370. Do you allow contraception, divorce and remarriage against the commands of Christ, or do you agree

that they are intrinsically evil acts?
Moses allowed divorce, but Christ declared it to be adultery aka sin aka intrinsically evil.

My congregation is against the use of contraception. In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it and Jesus is one with the Father, so he not in disagreement with what God instructed Him. In Matthew 19:3-9, Jesus was asked whether a man was permitted to divorce his wife for any reason. For example, the Talmud interprets Deuteronomy 24:1-4 as saying that a man is permitted to divorce his wife if he finds someone who is prettier than her or if she burns his meal. Jesus not disagreement with what God instructed Moses, but rather he what he was referring to as not being the case from the beginning was divorce over frivolous reasons.

What do you say? Do you elevate ceremonial worship of God over His divine moral law as the SDA do?
See CCC paragraphs 2382-2386.

The Bible never gives a list of ceremonial or moral laws and never even refers to those as being subcategories of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which were of ceremonial or moral laws, then there would be a wife variety of lists, and those people should not interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to a list of laws that they just created.

Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. Legislators give laws according to what they think ought to be done and no one knows better than God what ought to be done. So for someone to think that some of God's laws are not moral laws is for them to think that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws, and for them to think that they have greater moral knowledge than God.

In the Gospels, Christ gives us numerous examples where violation of the Sabbath is permissible for the moral good. He also declared the Sabbath the servant of man, in that it was made for him and man was not made for the Sabbath. Christ’s logic tells us that the Sabbath was supposed to serve man, not man to serve the Sabbath. As Christians we bow to Our Lord that fulfilled the principle of the Sabbath which is rest one day in seven, but do not bow to a day over the worship of Our God who loved us and gave Himself for us and chose to rise on the first day of the week, and send the Holy Spirit to start His Church on the first day of the week, Pentecost.
I agree that there is evil in adultery, but there is no evil in the worship of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

There are a number of instance where some of God's laws appear to conflict with each other, such as when God commanded priests to rest on the Sabbath, but also commanded priests to make offerings on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:9-10), however, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by breaking one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that the lesser command was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater command from being obeyed. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 12:5-7 that priests who did their duties were held innocent, why David and his men were held innocent, and why Jesus fended his disciples as being innocent.

The Sabbath was made as a precious gift for man, so we should not spurn it. Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath by teaching us to keep the 7th day holy by word and by example. God did not command to keep one day in seven holy, but to keep the 7th day holy to commemorate when God rest on 7th day after 6 days of creation. God's law is His instructions for how to worship Him, so we can't worship God instead of obeying it.

There is nothing wrong with someone following their own tradition of worshiping God on the 1st day in addition to obeying God's command to keep the 7th day holy, but we should not hypocritically set aside God's commands in order to establish our own traditions. Jesus rose on the Feast of Firstfruits as the firstfruits from the dead, so there is already a day that is rich with relevant symbolism that we can use to honor the resurrection that is in accordance with what God has commanded, so there is no need whatsoever to set aside any of God's command in order to do that. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so disobeying God's law to honor the resurrection is a bit like a man committing adultery in order to honor his wife.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In the Gospels, Christ gives us numerous examples where violation of the Sabbath is permissible for the moral good.

There is no scripture where Jesus says we can break the Sabbath commandment. The Sabbath commandment of God was not broken ever by Jesus or His disciples or His people. In fact, His followers hallowed the Sabbath so much they refused to come to His tomb to embalm His body on the Sabbath because they were obeying His commandment Luke 23:56

What Jesus and the apostles were doing was breaking the Sabbath of the Pharisees, not the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, the Pharisees were making the Sabbath a day of bondage filled with ungodly rules, when it is meant to be a blessing and delight for mankind. Isaiah 58:13-14 What is sad that so many people take the word of the Pharisees who crucified Jesus for no cause over the very words of Jesus.

He also declared the Sabbath the servant of man, in that it was made for him and man was not made for the Sabbath.

Jesus declared the Sabbath was made for mankind Mark 2:27 and mankind was made on the sixth day Gen 1:26 before the very first Sabbath Gen 2:1-3 that Jesus hallowed Exodus 20:11 that He said was made for mankind. God set aside the seventh day as a day of rest, not because God needs rest but as an example for man, because man was made in the image of God to follow Him, not to do our own thing. God sanctified, blessed and made holy the seventh day for man to spend time with God because man cannot sanctify themselves only God can Eze 20:12 yet many try anyway,

Christ’s logic tells us that the Sabbath was supposed to serve man, not man to serve the Sabbath.

These are your words, not God's.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God, so that means its not optional or a suggestion for the people of God.

As Christians we bow to Our Lord that fulfilled the principle of the Sabbath which is rest one day in seven,

Again, you words, not God's.

God was very specific, He said the seventh day, not one in seven. Gen 2:1-3, Exodus 20:10

but do not bow to a day over the worship of Our God who loved us and gave Himself for us and chose to rise on the first day of the week, and send the Holy Spirit to start His Church on the first day of the week, Pentecost.
I agree that there is evil in adultery, but there is no evil in the worship of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

What is sad is many teach that Jesus did not know how to keep the 4th commandment, that He didn't know what day He established to worship Him, that man should worship on a day God said to do work and labors over the day God sanctified and blessed and is a commandment of God. Jesus warns us about following man over obeying the commandments of God and said this is false worship Mat 15:3-9

Jesus knows the correct day of worship as He kept the Sabbath His entire life and all of the commandments. John 15:10 Luke 4:16-22. Jesus is the one who spoke the commandments John 1:1-3 so He would know above all others the difference between a common workday Exodus 20:9 and the holy day of the Lord thy God according to His own Word. Exodus 20:10 Isaiah 58:13. There is no commandment to keep the first day holy, but there is for the seventh day Sabbath. The choice is ours- do we follow Jesus or do or follow what was established by man.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Interestingly, there is also no scripture prohibiting the smoking of tobacco or marijuana.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Interestingly, there is also no scripture prohibiting the smoking of tobacco or marijuana.

I don’t know about tobacco, but since marijuana causes a form of intoxication, the word of God says that drunkards will not enter the kingdom of heaven. The only real use for cannabis would be canabadiol, or CBD. This chemical extracted from hemp has been shown to be of medical benefit to some people. Delta-9 tetrahydrocanabinol however has no medical benefit and is a class 1 substance under federal law. Many states have legalized it, sadly for recreational use; it remains illegal under US federal law.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don’t know about tobacco, but since marijuana causes a form of intoxication, the word of God says that drunkards will not enter the kingdom of heaven. The only real use for cannabis would be canabadiol, or CBD. This chemical extracted from hemp has been shown to be of medical benefit to some people. Delta-9 tetrahydrocanabinol however has no medical benefit and is a class 1 substance under federal law. Many states have legalized it, sadly for recreational use; it remains illegal under US federal law.

My point was that, as sure as the fact that there is no scripture where Jesus says we can break the Sabbath commandment there is no scripture addressing innumerable issues. People have become quite obsessed about God's stance on these issues (say, tobacco for just one issue) that they have made it the prime focus of their spiritual lives.

For decades in the United States the spiritual issue of slavery obsessed people until the horrific Civil War was fought over it as a religious issue. After that the target was alcohol in all its myriad manifestations, including sacramental wine. People seem to crave some issue they can use to prop up their own self-image and esteem. If worshipping on Saturday only does it for others, that is just fine by me.

 

[BobRyan]

Interestingly, there is also no scripture prohibiting the smoking of tobacco or marijuana.

1 Cor 6 says not to damage your body.

But if you want doctrine that comes from "no scripture" there is a wide universe full of possible things to "suppose"

 

[BobRyan]

If worshipping on Saturday only does it for others, that is just fine by me.

No one says "only worship on Saturday" -- that is not even the point being debated.

What is being debated in Mark 7:7-13 issue of whether magesterium is allowed to edit God's commandments. To set one aside, to diminish its value.

In Mark 7 Jesus takes a strong stand on that point.

Some suppose that Jesus was being a bit too strict - others say He was right on point.

 

[JSRG]

Interestingly, there is also no scripture prohibiting the smoking of tobacco or marijuana.

Well, tobacco was completely unknown outside of the American continent prior to the 16th century or so.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Ephesus Theory

The Ephesus Theory. An overview of the Sabbath-Sunday issues, concerning the origins of the Lord’s Day and its relationship to the Sabbath. The early Church, from the beginning, was worshiping on the Sabbath. They did so because they saw themselves not as a new religion, but as the fulfillment...

docs.google.com

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

[18] "Upon this rock": The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews which our Lord made use of

What exactly do you mean here? Yeshua WAS A JEW

 

[Gary K]

So "remember" is no longer a recollection, it is a commemoration.

More bootstrapping.

How do you come up with that? It's the dictionary definition of the word. Do you think Sabbath keepers are so numerous and powerful we control the dictionaries? Sounds more like personal prejudice to me.

 

[Clare73]

How do you come up with that? It's the dictionary definition of the word. Do you think Sabbath keepers are so numerous and powerful we control the dictionaries? Sounds more like personal prejudice to me.

Not in Webster.

 

[Gary K]

Not in Webster.

So? It's still a dictionary definition. Today's dictionaries have been dumbed down a lot. When I was a kid we had a Webster's dictionary that was probably 11x14 and close to a foot thick. The paper in it was like the paper in an expensive Bible. It was very fine and thin. I have no idea how many pages it had but it had to have been around 2000 at least. It was published in the 1920s. So you compare it to a modern Webster's Collegiate dictionary and there's no comparison. Definitions have been shortened and at least a thousand pages too.

I ran Linux on my laptop for years and there is a 1912 Webster's dictionary in it. It had definitions in it that I've seen nowhere else. I found one when researching Christ's prayer for Peter when He said He had prayed for Peter than his faith fail not. In that dictionary one of the meanings of the word pray is to dedicate yourself to another person when asking a request of them. It's one of the secrets of Jesus' prayer life. I'd have never learned that from a modern dictionary.

 

[Clare73]

So? It's still a dictionary definition. Today's dictionaries have been dumbed down a lot. When I was a kid we had a Webster's dictionary that was probably 11x14 and close to a foot thick. The paper in it was like the paper in an expensive Bible. It was very fine and thin. I have no idea how many pages it had but it had to have been around 2000 at least. It was published in the 1920s. So you compare it to a modern Webster's Collegiate dictionary and there's no comparison. Definitions have been shortened and at least a thousand pages too.

I happen to have such unabridged dictionary of Webster.
My definition is not from a modern one.

I ran Linux on my laptop for years and there is a 1912 Webster's dictionary in it. It had definitions in it that I've seen nowhere else. I found one when researching Christ's prayer for Peter when He said He had prayed for Peter than his faith fail not. In that dictionary one of the meanings of the word pray is to dedicate yourself to another person when asking a request of them. It's one of the secrets of Jesus' prayer life. I'd have never learned that from a modern dictionary.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

What exactly do you mean here? Yeshua WAS A JEW

Yeshua is a Jew. From what I have read, Hebrew appears to have been more of an Ecclesiastical language in His day, much like Latin is to the Catholic Church. The Vulgar language, (vulgar just meant common or everyday spoken language of the people not in the sense the word vulgar is used today), was Aramaic.
Neither a Jew, nor the Hebrew language is to be looked down upon or despised.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

No one says "only worship on Saturday" -- that is not even the point being debated.

What is being debated in Mark 7:7-13 issue of whether magesterium is allowed to edit God's commandments. To set one aside, to diminish its value.

In Mark 7 Jesus takes a strong stand on that point.

Some suppose that Jesus was being a bit too strict - others say He was right on point.

Bob, I appreciate you clarifying the issue. Were God’s commandments edited?
We look at the fruits. What is happening now? God in His infinite providence has given us the five day work week, and allowed it to to become ingrained in the culture. The Sabbath is not profaned.
The Catholic Church celebrates the Eucharist on Sunday, as that is when Jesus celebrated the first Eucharist and holy Mass. He opened the scriptures to the disciples on the road to Emaus and they recognized Him in the breaking of bread. That occurred after His resurrection, on the first day of the week, which we know as Sunday. The Catholic Church repeats the same actions every Sunday forever as a memorial, and also to follow Our Lord’s example, as He said, Do this in remembrance of me.
There are some that would profane the Sabbath, and it is good to teach souls to known their God whom they worship, so we call it to mind, but it it does not profane the Sabbath to follow Our Lord’s example and memorialize Him forever as He commanded. That logic would be absurd.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Bob, I appreciate you clarifying the issue. Were God’s commandments edited?
We look at the fruits. What is happening now? God in His infinite providence has given us the five day work week,

Actually, this is what God said and wrote....

Exodus 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

The Catholic Church celebrates the Eucharist on Sunday, as that is when Jesus celebrated the first Eucharist and holy Mass.

No such scripture. There is no scripture where Jesus celebrated mass on Sunday. There is no scripture that says God blessed the first day and it is holy for Him or for us. God said plainly all days are working days except for the seventh day Sabbath - the only day God blessed, sanctified for holy use and is a commandment of God.

He opened the scriptures to the disciples on the road to Emaus and they recognized Him in the breaking of bread. That occurred after His resurrection, on the first day of the week, which we know as Sunday. The Catholic Church repeats the same actions every Sunday forever as a memorial, and also to follow Our Lord’s example, as He said, Do this in remembrance of me.

The Lords Supper was not on Sunday and eating a meal is not a commandment.

There are some that would profane the Sabbath, and it is good to teach souls to known their God whom they worship, so we call it to mind, but it it does not profane the Sabbath to follow Our Lord’s example and memorialize Him forever as He commanded. That logic would be absurd.

We can't serve two masters. God only asks us to keep one day holy- Exodus 20:8-11 written and spoke by God alone. Keeping traditions over the commandments of God is something Jesus warns us about. Mat 15:3-9. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, which means it is not a suggestion.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yeshua is a Jew. From what I have read, Hebrew appears to have been more of an Ecclesiastical language in His day, much like Latin is to the Catholic Church. The Vulgar language, (vulgar just meant common or everyday spoken language of the people not in the sense the word vulgar is used today), was Aramaic.
Neither a Jew, nor the Hebrew language is to be looked down upon or despised.

OK thanks for the clarification. Hebrew was used in the Temple and in the synagogues for prayers.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, this is what God said and wrote....

Exodus 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,


No such scripture. There is no scripture where Jesus celebrated mass on Sunday. There is no scripture that says God blessed the first day and it is holy for Him or for us. God said plainly all days are working days except for the seventh day Sabbath - the only day God blessed, sanctified for holy use and is a commandment of God.

The Lords Supper was not on Sunday and eating a meal is not a commandment.

We can't serve two masters. God only asks us to keep one day holy- Exodus 20:8-11 written and spoke by God alone. Keeping traditions over the commandments of God is something Jesus warns us about. Mat 15:3-9. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, which means it is not a suggestion.

That must mean that the vast majority of humanity are living in serious sin because they only work five days a week and, even at that, only eight hours per day. The commandment is clear - you must work six days a week.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That must mean that the vast majority of humanity are living in serious sin because they only work five days a week and, even at that, only eight hours per day. The commandment is clear - you must work six days a week.

Working is not just going to work- it could include doing laundry, going shopping, gardening. God gives us six days to get all our work and labors done Exo 20:9 and only asks for one day back to keep holy for a full day. Exo 20:8 He set aside one day, the seventh day Sabbath Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:8-11, Isa 58:13 that He blessed, sanctified and made for holy use to spend time with man, because man cannot sanctify themselves, only God can Eze 20:12