Born This Way

[FireDragon76]

I thought it answered, yes.
Yes.


Additional verification?
Why do you say additional? I don't get any.


I'm sorry you went through that experience.
This is the sad state of a world, that has turned from God.

I can offer what has helped thousands who have gone through something similar.
Of course to completely erase memories may not be possible now, but I can tell you that these person are happy, full of joy, and enjoying happy family life.
What has helped them comes from God. Are you open to that?


I'm not saying that our environment, experiences, state of mind, and other factors don't play a role in how our life turns out.
Our choices however, can and do make a difference.

Are you a male, white? Are you an American? Much of the rest of the world doesn't have the luxury of taking a high level of autonomy for granted.

 

[Astrid]

I thought it answered, yes.
Yes.


Additional verification?
Why do you say additional? I don't get any.


I'm sorry you went through that experience.
This is the sad state of a world, that has turned from God.

I can offer what has helped thousands who have gone through something similar.
Of course to completely erase memories may not be possible now, but I can tell you that these person are happy, full of joy, and enjoying happy family life.
What has helped them comes from God. Are you open to that?


I'm not saying that our environment, experiences, state of mind, and other factors don't play a role in how our life turns out.
Our choices however, can and do make a difference.

For example, growing up in the ghetto can affect a child's mind, especially if his home environment is one where, his parents are drugged and bummed out, most time, but does that mean the youth cannot make choices that make a difference in his life. Or does he have to be a thug, and end up in prison, or dead?

For clarity, you could choose to be gay?

Fwiw, I cannot.

But you may not understand how I can say that.

 

[CoreyD]

For clarity, you could choose to be gay?

Fwiw, I cannot.

But you may not understand how I can say that.

Do you know how a "child soldier" becomes a trained assassin, or terrorist?
In some cases, it starts with dulling the senses. A little booze. Some heroine. Just enough to help them choose to do what they find really hard to do - walk into a crowded mall, and shoot everyone in sight, or just pull the cord on an explosive device.
I can choose to be anything I want to be.

Interestingly, the paper I linked, said this.
We found several personality traits (loneliness and openness to experience), risky behaviors (smoking and cannabis use) and mental health disorders, but not physical traits, to be significantly genetically correlated with same-sex sexual behavior. We found in both sexes that same-sex sexual behavior was positively genetically correlated with several psychiatric or mental health traits [for example, depression, rg = 0.44 in females (95% CIs, 0.32 and 0.55), rg = 0.33 in males (95% CIs, 0.22 and 0.43); schizophrenia, rg = 0.17 in females (95% CIs 0.08 and 0.35), rg = 0.13 in males (95% CIs, 0.05 and 0.26); all Wald test P < 0.001]. We emphasize that the causal processes underlying these genetic correlations are unclear and could be generated by environmental factors relating to prejudice against individuals engaging in same-sex sexual behavior, among other possibilities, which we discuss in . Some associations were sex specific. In particular, the genetic correlations with bipolar disorder, cannabis use, and number of sexual partners were significantly higher in females than in males (Wald test P = 0.001,1.47 × 10−6, and 3.13 × 10−5 respectively)

I'm interested in hearing why you could not choose to be gay, though.
Don't mind if I don't understand. I will try.

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you know how a "child soldier" becomes a trained assassin, or terrorist?
In some cases, it starts with dulling the senses. A little booze. Some heroine. Just enough to help them choose to do what they find really hard to do - walk into a crowded mall, and shoot everyone in sight, or just pull the cord on an explosive device.
I can choose to be anything I want to be.

Interestingly, the paper I linked, said this.
We found several personality traits (loneliness and openness to experience), risky behaviors (smoking and cannabis use) and mental health disorders, but not physical traits, to be significantly genetically correlated with same-sex sexual behavior. We found in both sexes that same-sex sexual behavior was positively genetically correlated with several psychiatric or mental health traits [for example, depression, rg = 0.44 in females (95% CIs, 0.32 and 0.55), rg = 0.33 in males (95% CIs, 0.22 and 0.43); schizophrenia, rg = 0.17 in females (95% CIs 0.08 and 0.35), rg = 0.13 in males (95% CIs, 0.05 and 0.26); all Wald test P < 0.001]. We emphasize that the causal processes underlying these genetic correlations are unclear and could be generated by environmental factors relating to prejudice against individuals engaging in same-sex sexual behavior, among other possibilities, which we discuss in . Some associations were sex specific. In particular, the genetic correlations with bipolar disorder, cannabis use, and number of sexual partners were significantly higher in females than in males (Wald test P = 0.001,1.47 × 10−6, and 3.13 × 10−5 respectively)

I'm interested in hearing why you could not choose to be gay, though.
Don't mind if I don't understand. I will try.

Don't confuse correlation with causation.

It's not surprising that a study might find gay people might be more likely to use drugs. They have historically lived with alot of stress and been marginalized (even your quote mentions this as a possible explanation). There's no evidence to suggest drug use causes homosexual orientation.

 

[Strong in Him]

For clarity, you could choose to be gay?

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but for what it's worth, that's my point.
No one chooses, or can choose, to be gay or straight.

 

[Astrid]

Do you know how a "child soldier" becomes a trained assassin, or terrorist?
In some cases, it starts with dulling the senses. A little booze. Some heroine. Just enough to help them choose to do what they find really hard to do - walk into a crowded mall, and shoot everyone in sight, or just pull the cord on an explosive device.
I can choose to be anything I want to be.

Interestingly, the paper I linked, said this.
We found several personality traits (loneliness and openness to experience), risky behaviors (smoking and cannabis use) and mental health disorders, but not physical traits, to be significantly genetically correlated with same-sex sexual behavior. We found in both sexes that same-sex sexual behavior was positively genetically correlated with several psychiatric or mental health traits [for example, depression, rg = 0.44 in females (95% CIs, 0.32 and 0.55), rg = 0.33 in males (95% CIs, 0.22 and 0.43); schizophrenia, rg = 0.17 in females (95% CIs 0.08 and 0.35), rg = 0.13 in males (95% CIs, 0.05 and 0.26); all Wald test P < 0.001]. We emphasize that the causal processes underlying these genetic correlations are unclear and could be generated by environmental factors relating to prejudice against individuals engaging in same-sex sexual behavior, among other possibilities, which we discuss in . Some associations were sex specific. In particular, the genetic correlations with bipolar disorder, cannabis use, and number of sexual partners were significantly higher in females than in males (Wald test P = 0.001,1.47 × 10−6, and 3.13 × 10−5 respectively)

I'm interested in hearing why you could not choose to be gay, though.
Don't mind if I don't understand. I will try.

You did not clarify.
It's ok, I wont ask,again.

As for me- its simple.

I am inherently " hetero". I'm not attracted to
girls.
I had the usual interest in boys.

I made no choice, its just how I am.

Regardless of what you or anyone thinks
might " cure" me, I'm the one in my head.

I've had plenty of VERY expensive counseling.

That and my own struggle moved me from,well
a very bad place.

I cannot choose though to change what was done
to me.

I'm terrified of and repulsed by men.


I didnt choose to be lesbian, I'm not lesbian and my feelings are only for my partner.

There's no way I could choose to be lesbian and
start being interested in the girls.

 

[CoreyD]

You did not clarify.
It's ok, I wont ask,again.

I'm glad you won't, because I only speak English.

As for me- its simple.

I am inherently " hetero". I'm not attracted to
girls.
I had the usual interest in boys.

I made no choice, its just how I am.

Regardless of what you or anyone thinks
might " cure" me, I'm the one in my head.

I've had plenty of VERY expensive counseling.

That and my own struggle moved me from,well
a very bad place.

I cannot choose though to change what was done
to me.

I'm terrified of and repulsed by men.


I didnt choose to be lesbian, I'm not lesbian and my feelings are only for my partner.

There's no way I could choose to be lesbian and
start being interested in the girls.

I think if you put your mind to it, you would, I'm not encouraging you to do anything though.

 

[Strong in Him]

Okay, so correct me if I am wrong.
Normality depends on how frequently something happens? Is that what you are saying?

Normal = what is usual, standard, the norm.

adjective
conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

If a behaviour is standard it is because the majority of people do it.

Please forgive me. I'm a little confused. You say, 'It's not normal in the sense that something has obviously gone wrong somewhere.'
However, earlier, you were saying, "Yes, but if a baby is born with a missing limb, that is still their normal."

If a baby were to be born with a missing limb, then that indicates that something has gone wrong - because most of the time when an embryo is heathy and developing correctly, a baby will be born with 2 arms and 2 legs.

I said that it is THEIR normal, because, unless a prosthetic limb can be attached to them before they can walk/learn to write etc, that will be all that they know. They may have to learn to crawl and get around with only one leg and a stump. They may have to learn to do things with one hand, or using their shoulders, feet or teeth.
After the mothers had been given Thalidomide, many babies were born with missing limbs.
Technically, they were abnormal - not conforming to the norm, and I dare say there were some who were told that. But the word "abnormal"
is, or has come to be, an insult, and leads to discrimination and prejudice - e.g. "you're not normal; we're not associating with you."

So, I'm confused.
I'm not able to pinpoint a standard of normal, in your arguments.

I did ask you to define what you meant by normal.

What I'm saying is that you could look at a disabled person and think "they have physical or mental abnormalities. It is not normal to have missing limbs/Down's Syndrome/Epileptic seizures etc".
But if that is all that person had ever known; if in the words of your OP they were "born that way", it will be normal for them to write with their feet or whatever. And saying to them, "that's not/you're not normal" is discrimination - and hurtful as no one can help how they are born.
If you were born with blue eyes, and into a family of 8 who all had green eyes, it could be said that you were not normal. But how do you think you would feel if people treated you badly/differently because of something you were born with and did not choose or ask for?

I'll have to finish this some other time; sorry, it's late here in the UK.

 

[Strong in Him]

Continued.

Do you agree with that statement - "I was born [with this disability[, therefore it is not wrong."?

Yes. Because to say that it is wrong would be to say that they are wrong; a mistake
To shun someone with a disability because they are considered to be wrong or abnormal, is not correct.

That's a lot of experience with special needs children. Seems you love children.

Apart from the special needs school, my experiences were mostly with adults.

You must be a person with a kind heart.

It's kind of you to say that. But it's more that I care about people who find life difficult due to a disability; those who are, or have been, labelled as "defective", "slow" or "abnormal" and who, in the past have been discriminated against, or ignored, by society.

Psychological, and mental disorders are not taught.
Neither are they inherited.

Aren't they?
I don't know enough about it and would need to do some research, but can schizophrenia, bi polar disorder and so on run in families?
If a child was brought up by narcissistic parents, or by parents with a personality disorder, is there not a chance that that child would also be narcissistic, as that was what they had for role models?

No. It's not something others have not done.

But that's a double negative.
It should be either; "it's not something that others have done", or "it's something that others have not done".
To say "It's not something that others have not done", means they have done it. Two negatives = a positive.

Please explain what you mean by "someone who is gay".

What I said.
The word "gay" has come to mean someone who is attracted to someone of the same gender; homosexual or lesbian.

When you say sexually active, what do you mean?

I mean someone who is sexually active - actively has a sex life.
In the context of my sentence I was talking of gay people being sexually active, and what sort of conversation they might have with God about that.

Treating gay, or disabled, people as "abnormal"?
Please give an example of what you mean by " treating gay, or disabled, people as "abnormal" ".

In my voluntary work I have heard people telling me that they cannot tell their family that they are gay because their parents/society/religious faith would disapprove. In some cultures people may be arrested, locked away or even killed. They are told that being gay is abnormal, disgusting, against the law/their faith and cannot be allowed. The gay person would at best be ostracised for being gay; at worst, persecuted or killed.
Some evangelical/fundamentalist Christians believe the same thing, and denounce gay people as sinners, perverts or people who are going to hell. I have even heard - though this may have been a while ago - of gay people being made to have "treatment" - electric shocks applied to their private parts to make them "normal".

In bible times, and maybe afterwards, the belief was that anyone born with a disability was like that because someone had sinned - it was a curse or punishment.
Years ago, anyone who had a learning disability, or mental handicap as it used to be called, was put in an institution. There were doctors who said "put them away and forget you had them". Sometimes, even people who went against the norms of society might be treated that way. We had a resident who had had two children out of wedlock. To be an unmarried mother once was thought to be foolish; to do it again meant you must have had something wrong with you. That was the norm at the time - no sex before marriage; no children out of wedlock. The children themselves might have been treated differently or even taken away and put into care.

People were sometimes treated differently, ignored, discriminated against, persecuted or worse because they were - in the minds of the family, faith or society - abnormal.

 

[Strong in Him]

Do you know how a "child soldier" becomes a trained assassin, or terrorist?
In some cases, it starts with dulling the senses. A little booze. Some heroine. Just enough to help them choose to do what they find really hard to do - walk into a crowded mall, and shoot everyone in sight, or just pull the cord on an explosive device.
I can choose to be anything I want to be.

Are you saying that someone can instruct, train, coerce or brainwash another person into being gay?
That parents may decide they want a gay person in the family and try to create one by indoctrinating their young children?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you think you did not choose sexuality?

I know I didn't. I never made a choice to be straight. I certainly couldn't choose to be sexually attracted to men, I'm just not.

Are you saying you chose your sexuality? What was that like? That's not an experience with which I'm familiar.

I know persons who chose a different sex, because of how the other sex treated them.

And I don't believe you. Or is it possible you've never heard of bisexual people?

Do you think you didn't have a choice?

I know, at least for myself, I didn't. I never chose to be attracted to the opposite sex. I just am.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Astrid]

I know I didn't. I never made a choice to be straight. I certainly couldn't choose to be sexually attracted to men, I'm just not.

Are you saying you chose your sexuality? What was that like? That's not an experience with which I'm familiar.



And I don't believe you. Or is it possible you've never heard of bisexual people?



I know, at least for myself, I didn't. I never chose to be attracted to the opposite sex. I just am.

-CryptoLutheran

Well said.
I didn't choose either.

"Choosing" doesn't even make sense.

 

[CoreyD]

Normal = what is usual, standard, the norm.
adjective
conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
If a behaviour is standard it is because the majority of people do it.

Romans 1:26-27​

New International Version​

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.​

​

If a baby were to be born with a missing limb, then that indicates that something has gone wrong - because most of the time when an embryo is heathy and developing correctly, a baby will be born with 2 arms and 2 legs.

It's considered to be healthy and developing correctly, only because it was designed that way.
If it was not designed that way, then it can be considered healthy, by anyone who thinks it is okay. Am I wrong? Can you explain why I am?

I said that it is THEIR normal, because, unless a prosthetic limb can be attached to them before they can walk/learn to write etc, that will be all that they know. They may have to learn to crawl and get around with only one leg and a stump. They may have to learn to do things with one hand, or using their shoulders, feet or teeth.
After the mothers had been given Thalidomide, many babies were born with missing limbs.
Technically, they were abnormal - not conforming to the norm, and I dare say there were some who were told that. But the word "abnormal"
is, or has come to be, an insult, and leads to discrimination and prejudice - e.g. "you're not normal; we're not associating with you."

I did ask you to define what you meant by normal.

I thought I did define normal, and pointed out where.

What I'm saying is that you could look at a disabled person and think "they have physical or mental abnormalities. It is not normal to have missing limbs/Down's Syndrome/Epileptic seizures etc".

That - the last sentence. - is all I was saying.

But if that is all that person had ever known; if in the words of your OP they were "born that way", it will be normal for them to write with their feet or whatever. And saying to them, "that's not/you're not normal" is discrimination - and hurtful as no one can help how they are born.
If you were born with blue eyes, and into a family of 8 who all had green eyes, it could be said that you were not normal. But how do you think you would feel if people treated you badly/differently because of something you were born with and did not choose or ask for?

I'll have to finish this some other time; sorry, it's late here in the UK.

The rest of what you are saying is getting away from the point. It really is not relevant to anything, really.
I understand it, but it is dancing around the point. No offense meant. Hopefully no offense taken.

Continued.

Yes. Because to say that it is wrong would be to say that they are wrong; a mistake

Would that not mean that you are saying they are not normal, when you say It is not normal to have missing limbs/Down's Syndrome/Epileptic seizures etc".?
By your own reasoning, it would, but I don't agree that automatically that is what you are saying.
Simply identifying and acknowledging a fact, is not referring to an individual as being abnormal, or wrong.
It is the twisted thinking of this world that results in our own twisted thinking - thinking that because people think a certain way, we must adulterate truth.

I got a scar from a pot of hot oil, so, because that is bad, I am bad. That's twisted, isn't it.
You are not bad, because something bad happened to you. That is sensible thinking. Am I wrong?

To shun someone with a disability because they are considered to be wrong or abnormal, is not correct.

That is besides the point. It has no relevance to what is being discussed in the OP.
If you are making that point to that we should not shun a person because they are a certain way, that can be a subject for another thread.
The OP is not discussing shunning, or our response to people who are different - whether by choice, or circumstance.

Apart from the special needs school, my experiences were mostly with adults.

Cool.

It's kind of you to say that. But it's more that I care about people who find life difficult due to a disability; those who are, or have been, labelled as "defective", "slow" or "abnormal" and who, in the past have been discriminated against, or ignored, by society.

All of this is normal. It is the world we live in. A world that does not know God. Normal.
Do you have something against normal? I can be hard on you, yes.

Aren't they?
I don't know enough about it and would need to do some research, but can schizophrenia, bi polar disorder and so on run in families?

It's complicated.
We can research together.

https://healthnews.com/health-conditions/genetic-disorders/genetic-factors-in-mental-disorders/

Is Mental Illness Genetic?

The exact causes of mental illness are not fully understood, but genetics appear to be one piece of the puzzle. Researchers have long noted that certain conditions tend to run families, partly because of genetics, but also because of environmental factors such as shared upbringing.​

​

Certain mental health conditions appear to be more closely tied to genetics, and research suggests that there are shared genetic factors that appear to play a part in causing these disorders.​

​

However, genes alone are not responsible for causing mental illness. And no single gene variant could determine with certainty that a person will have a mental illness.​

​

In other words, just because you have family members with a mental disorder does not mean you will develop it.​

My question is, how much role does heredity play, than mutations, but I'll leave it to the scientists to work out.
I don't deny the role of genes though, so I accept correction.

If a child was brought up by narcissistic parents, or by parents with a personality disorder, is there not a chance that that child would also be narcissistic, as that was what they had for role models?

I think there is a chance of children imitating their parents. A big chance.
However, would that not be environmental?

But that's a double negative.
It should be either; "it's not something that others have done", or "it's something that others have not done".
To say "It's not something that others have not done", means they have done it. Two negatives = a positive.

I highlighted it for you.
That is what I am saying. They have done it.

I'll have to get back to you later.

 

[All Becomes New]

"We are born this way. Therefore, it cannot be wrong."
Have you heard that before? Does the logic follow?

No. One reason being is that people are born with Down Syndrome, which is in no way "wrong" even though doctors tell would-be parents they should abort their child for this reason.

 

[Diamond72]

No. It's a logical fallacy. Humans must be born perfect for it to be logical.

In psalm 139 16 God writes the book of our life before we are born. At or before conception we are given all of our gifts, talents and abilities. We are to use what we have to honor and glorify God. I believe every name is written in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the world. A name has to be blotted out.

Clearly the Bible says God tests us. Clearly we have a choice. Although we can inherit the sins of our parents. The usual story is that we have a choice to love God or not love God. That it can not be love without that choice. But from God's perspective He wants all to be saved.

 

[Diamond72]

The exact causes of mental illness are not fully understood,

I was told that mental illness is caused by a chemical or hormone imbalance in the brain.

 

[CoreyD]

What I said.
The word "gay" has come to mean someone who is attracted to someone of the same gender; homosexual or lesbian.

I mean someone who is sexually active - actively has a sex life.
In the context of my sentence I was talking of gay people being sexually active, and what sort of conversation they might have with God about that.

OK. So someone practices homosexuality, as opposed to someone who has these feelings or tendencies, but avoids the practice?
The Bible makes clear that it is wrong, and says such persons do not have God's approval. Only if these persons change, can they be accepted by God.
Of course, if a person isn't willing to even try to change, or insist that they cannot change, they are really turning a deaf ear to God's instruction, making their prayers to God, detestable. Proverbs 28:9
There would not be any conversation with God, in other words.

In my voluntary work I have heard people telling me that they cannot tell their family that they are gay because their parents/society/religious faith would disapprove. In some cultures people may be arrested, locked away or even killed. They are told that being gay is abnormal, disgusting, against the law/their faith and cannot be allowed. The gay person would at best be ostracised for being gay; at worst, persecuted or killed.

Some evangelical/fundamentalist Christians believe the same thing, and denounce gay people as sinners, perverts or people who are going to hell. I have even heard - though this may have been a while ago - of gay people being made to have "treatment" - electric shocks applied to their private parts to make them "normal".

In bible times, and maybe afterwards, the belief was that anyone born with a disability was like that because someone had sinned - it was a curse or punishment.

Years ago, anyone who had a learning disability, or mental handicap as it used to be called, was put in an institution. There were doctors who said "put them away and forget you had them". Sometimes, even people who went against the norms of society might be treated that way. We had a resident who had had two children out of wedlock. To be an unmarried mother once was thought to be foolish; to do it again meant you must have had something wrong with you. That was the norm at the time - no sex before marriage; no children out of wedlock. The children themselves might have been treated differently or even taken away and put into care.

People were sometimes treated differently, ignored, discriminated against, persecuted or worse because they were - in the minds of the family, faith or society - abnormal.

I really listened carefully to what you were saying.
Not being sure, exactly what all of that means in summary, I only have one question.

The Bible is a book containing God's instructions to his people, past, and present.
The Bible makes clear how God feels about things. It makes clear God's view, and what he intends to do to all who hate him - that is, reject his feelings, view, and laws.
Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus20:13; Romans 1:26, 27;1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; Jude 1:7

People say, God's laws are restrictive, outdated, irrelevant for today, homophobic, etc.
My question is, what do you think about God's laws regarding sexuality?

Are you saying that someone can instruct, train, coerce or brainwash another person into being gay?
That parents may decide they want a gay person in the family and try to create one by indoctrinating their young children?

I'm saying that a person can become 'gay" if they want, in the same way a person can become celibate, if they want to. Or, become a pedophile, a pimp, a prostitute, a drug-dealer, or addict. I don't have to go on, do I?

The last question is a bit extreme, but that can work.
Children are serialized. If you accept that fact, then you have the answer to your question, even before you asked.

Sex Education in Public Schools: Sexualization of Children and LGBT Indoctrination

Not so long ago, sex education in public schools involved a couple of uncomfortable hours looking at simple line drawings

www.frc.org

Did you know, experts also say that parents, with the power to help their 'mentally, and psychologically' affected children to accept their biological nature, actually push or give free reign to their children's inclinations toward being transgender?
It's true.

Ah. Here's a simple example.
Children, some as young as 10 and 11 years old, are engaged in prostitution...
If you ask yourself, how did they get there? What answer do you arrive at?

 

[CoreyD]

I know I didn't. I never made a choice to be straight. I certainly couldn't choose to be sexually attracted to men, I'm just not.

Are you saying you chose your sexuality? What was that like? That's not an experience with which I'm familiar.

Having a choice is, possible, only when alternatives are presented.
Think of the child that grows up in a household where certain things are exposed to it. I don't want to get specific.
The eyes take in what goes to the brain, and affects the desires, feelings, etc.

I wasn't born at a time when alternatives were so openly promoted as normal. Who knows what my mind might have processed, and how that would affect my thinking. Not to mention, if I used substances, or were psychologically and emotionally affected.

I know of children as young as 5, doing things they ought not, because it's what they were exposed to. Did they choose?
It's what they saw, and mentally processed, so that it became what is normal.
When they understood differently, or knew better, they made informed choices.
Knowing they were doing wrong though, demonstrates choosing.

Children do what is normal - natural, when they don't have alternate influences.

And I don't believe you. Or is it possible you've never heard of bisexual people?

You don't believe me. So what more can I say.

I know, at least for myself, I didn't. I never chose to be attracted to the opposite sex. I just am.

-CryptoLutheran

It's natural to be attracted to the opposite sex.
Otherwise, it is unnatural.

 

[RileyG]

People may not choose their inclinations, but their behavior is a choice. period

 

[CoreyD]

I was told that mental illness is caused by a chemical or hormone imbalance in the brain.

There are many different researchers and studies, so we will hear different results or suggestions.