soul = spirit?

[tonychanyt]

The words "soul" and "spirit" in the Bible are polysemantic and ambiguous and their meanings overlap. Here I am interested in their distinctions.

Hebrews 4:

12 For the word [logos] of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

What does logos separate?

it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit joints and marrow it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The soul is likened to joints while the spirit is likened to marrow. The marrow produces blood, and life or animation is in the blood. The spirit directs the soul which controls motions.

The soul is likened to thoughts and the spirit is likened to attitudes. One's attitudes determine the kinds of thoughts one would like to think on. Again, the spiritual attitudes direct the soul which determines his thought life.

This describes the central role of the human spirit over his soul. The spirit is supernatural because it connects with the indwelling Spirit. In this context, they are distinct.

1 Thessalonians 5:

23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is useful to think of the soul and spirit as different parts/faculties of a human being.

 

[Stephen3141]

The words "soul" and "spirit" in the Bible are polysemantic and ambiguous and their meanings overlap. Here I am interested in their distinctions.

Hebrews 4:


What does logos separate?

it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit joints and marrow it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The soul is likened to joints while the spirit is likened to marrow. The marrow produces blood, and life or animation is in the blood. The spirit directs the soul which controls motions.

The soul is likened to thoughts and the spirit is likened to attitudes. One's attitudes determine the kinds of thoughts one would like to think on. Again, the spiritual attitudes direct the soul which determines his thought life.

This describes the central role of the human spirit over his soul. The spirit is supernatural because it connects with the indwelling Spirit. In this context, they are distinct.

1 Thessalonians 5:


It is useful to think of the soul and spirit as different parts/faculties of a human being.

I think that you're reading a lot into the passage, that the biblical author didn't necessarily mean.
I think that your methodology in Scripture study, is really flawed.

 

[tonychanyt]

I think that you're reading a lot into the passage, that the biblical author didn't necessarily mean.

Thanks for sharing. Can you quote my words and be more specific in your comment?

 

[tturt]

Agree with you Tonychanyt.

As you posted, they can know
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thess 5:23

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

To in agreement add to your post:
Matthew 10:28 presupposes a dichotomy (to destroy these is to destroy a person)

Hebrews 4:12 requires a trichotomy

I believe we are body, soul and spirit like you do. Ecclesiastes 12:7 mentions God's life-giving force returning to The Lord and the very use of Hades to translate Sheol implies a conscious existence of some kind post-death until the time of the judgement. Same for the use of Tartarus and the angels and it's implications (2 Peter 2:4). Life for a human is seemingly defined as a unification of these three distinct things. Which I suppose shouldn't be surprising given that our Lord is 3 in person and one in being (Genesis 1:26).

God bless

 

[Andrewn]

The words "soul" and "spirit" in the Bible are polysemantic and ambiguous and their meanings overlap. Here I am interested in their distinctions.

Why does the Bible never mention the salvation of the human spirit?

It is useful to think of the soul and spirit as different parts/faculties of a human being.

Do you believe both soul and spirit continue their attachment to each other in eternity and have the same postmortem fate?

 

[tonychanyt]

Why does the Bible never mention the salvation of the human spirit?

Good question

I define the soul as the human personality and the spirit as the animation power from God.

Do you believe both soul and spirit continue their attachment to each other in eternity and have the same postmortem fate?

Good one

See What happens to your soul when you die?.

 

[Andrewn]

Matthew 10:28 presupposes a dichotomy (to destroy these is to destroy a person)

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

According to Ellicott's Commentary, "Here our Lord uses what we may call the popular dichotomy of man’s nature, and the word “soul” includes all that truly lives and thinks and wills in man, and is therefore equivalent to the “soul and spirit” of the more scientific trichotomy of St. Paul’s Epistles (1Thessalonians 5:23)."

If we compare the parallel verse in Luke's Gospel:

Luk 12:4 “I say to you, My friends, you should not be afraid of those who kill the body, since after this they have nothing more they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear. Fear the One who, after the killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear this One!

Thus, "the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" = "the One who, after the killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna".

These verses seem to suggest the annihilation of body and soul. But they are silent as to what happens to the human spirit if it is separate from the soul. If it is a part of the soul, one would assume they're destroyed together.

I define the soul as the human personality and the spirit as the animation power from God.

If this is the case, then the spirit is one with the Holy Spirit but not the same as the Holy Spirit because one is finite and the other infinite. This kind of belief would seem unusual, but it is consistent with ancient beliefs of the Church of the East. If this is true, the human spirit is impersonal and immortal. And my previous two questions would be answered.

Church of the East - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

These verses seem to suggest the annihilation of body and soul. But they are silent as to what happens to the human spirit if it is separate from the soul. If it is a part of the soul, one would assume they're destroyed together.

I agree that the passage is talking about destruction. The same way that the tares are gathered and thrown into the fire to be burned up (Matthew 13:40) and the same way that the eternal fire destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 7) which was an example of this destruction. One of the reasons I think that The Lord used the dichotomy of body and soul here in Matthew 10:28 is because the Ruach is God's and God's life giving Ruach returns to Him upon our death (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Otherwise if Jesus was to quote the trichotomy represented in Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 you'd have God destroying Himself or casting part of Himself into Gehenna.

 

[Andrewn]

One of the reasons I think that The Lord used the dichotomy of body and soul here in Matthew 10:28 is because the Ruach is God's and God's life giving Ruach returns to Him upon our death (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Otherwise if Jesus was to quote the trichotomy represented in Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 you'd have God destroying Himself or casting part of Himself into Gehenna.

One implication of this scenario is that non-Christians also have the Holy Spirit. The difference is that Christians may reach Spiritual realization ( self-transcendence).

Maslow's hierarchy of needs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

One implication of this scenario is that non-Christians also have the Holy Spirit. The difference is that Christians may reach Spiritual realization ( self-transcendence).

Maslow's hierarchy of needs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The spirit which sustains all man and creatures is not the same as God The Holy Spirit, but the same breath that the nephesh or 'soulish' creatures have in Genesis 1:20-23 & the same one we share in Genesis 2:7. God alone is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16) and therein, all creatures need to be sustained by Him.

Edit: It may be an aspect of The Holy Spirit, so I can't say the above with absolute certainty. However, I believe we're given adequate justification in scripture to argue that there is a distinction between the nephesh and God The Holy Spirit.

 

[tonychanyt]

If this is the case, then the spirit is one with the Holy Spirit but not the same as the Holy Spirit because one is finite and the other infinite. This kind of belief would seem unusual,

Are you saying that your human spirit = the Holy Spirit?

 

[Andrewn]

Are you saying that your human spirit = the Holy Spirit?

The expression "human" spirit is not in the Bible. In this scenario, the spirit in humans is one with the Holy Spirit but not the same as the Holy Spirit because one is finite and the other infinite. This is not incompatible w/ what you wrote about the electricity supply in the other thread.

I believe we're given adequate justification in scripture to argue that there is a distinction between the nephesh and God The Holy Spirit.

Yes, absolutely. No one has tried to mix those two. We're discussing the spirit, not the soul.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Yes, absolutely. No one has tried to mix those two. We're discussing the spirit.

The Spirit I was discussing in my earlier comments was the one I mentioned with Ecclesiastes 12:7, which is this one in Genesis 1:20-23 & Genesis 2:7. I believe that the trichotomy encompasses the breath/animating spirit or life mentioned here, the soul and the body. The Holy Spirit is something else, someone extra who is given to the child of God. At least that's how I am able to conceptualise it.

I suppose you would say that it's the fullness of God that is expanded upon and that the initial spirit/breath was an aspect of The Holy Spirit which was diminished through sin (Genesis 6:3). And that the child of God through Christ is given that same Spirit back in it's fullness which allows us to dwell eternally with our Lord.

I'm open to both views but whatever is the case; God's not throwing Himself into Gehenna. Only the distinctly human aspects of soul & body.

 

[tonychanyt]

The expression "human" spirit is not in the Bible.

NIV Proverbs 20:27
The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD that sheds light on one’s inmost being.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

NIV Proverbs 20:27
The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD that sheds light on one’s inmost being.

I'm not trying to pile on Andrewn here so I hope I don't cause offense, but another good one I thought worth mentioning was 1 Corinthians 2:11 which speaks about it as a man's spirit and holds it in contrast to God's Spirit.

 

[Andrewn]

NIV Proverbs 20:27
The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD that sheds light on one’s inmost being.

Interestingly, the word translated as "spirit" here is God's "neshama" given to Adam in Gen 2:7. It is described as Yahweh's light that searches out people's innermost being.

The question is how to understand the following verses in this context:

Joh 7:39 Now he said this about the Spirit, which believers in him were to receive, for as yet there was no Spirit because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. 18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Act 2:32 “This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses.33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you see and hear.

 

[tonychanyt]

Interestingly, the word translated as "spirit" here is God's "neshama" given to Adam in Gen 2:7.

I see that as a detached breath of God.

 

[Andrewn]

The Spirit I was discussing in my earlier comments was the one I mentioned with Ecclesiastes 12:7, which is this one in Genesis 1:20-23 & Genesis 2:7.

These 3 are distinguished in the Bible. Ecc 12:7 has "ruah/breath," Gen 1:21 has "nefesh/soul or being," and Gen 2:7 has "neshama/spirit" and "nefesh/soul or being."

I believe that the trichotomy encompasses the breath/animating spirit or life mentioned here, the soul and the body.

Do you believe that ruah = nefesh = neshama = spirit? I don't.

The Holy Spirit is something else, something extra which is given to the child of God. At least that's how I am able to conceptualise it.

Yes, and hence the question I asked in post #17.

I suppose you would say that it's the fullness of God that is expanded upon and that the initial spirit/breath was an aspect of The Holy Spirit which was diminished through sin (Genesis 6:3). And that the child of God through Christ is given that same Spirit back in it's fullness which allows us to dwell eternally with our Lord.

This is a good way to look at it and probably the easiest way. On Pentecost, the disciples received the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Another way to look at it is that the Logos is the paradigm and parent of all the logikai, or rational beings, who exercise reason only by participating in Him. Some ancient Christian writers believed that the Son is in those beings who possess logos or reason, and the Holy Spirit is only in the elect.

So, perhaps the spirit of human beings is not from the Holy Spirit but rather from Christ, the Logos. This would explain the verses I quoted in post #17. It would also explain the distinction between man's spirit and God's Spirit in 1 Corinthians 2:11. Whether the human spirit is from the Holy Spirit or from the Logos, it is Divine either way.

If I seem to be proposing different ideas here, it is because I don't have fixed views that I'm trying to sell.

I see that as a detached breath of God.

I read some of your related messages in different threads. How much do the views expressed here correspond with your thoughts?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The words "soul" and "spirit" in the Bible are polysemantic and ambiguous and their meanings overlap. Here I am interested in their distinctions.

Hebrews 4:


What does logos separate?

it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit joints and marrow it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The soul is likened to joints while the spirit is likened to marrow. The marrow produces blood, and life or animation is in the blood. The spirit directs the soul which controls motions.

The soul is likened to thoughts and the spirit is likened to attitudes. One's attitudes determine the kinds of thoughts one would like to think on. Again, the spiritual attitudes direct the soul which determines his thought life.

This describes the central role of the human spirit over his soul. The spirit is supernatural because it connects with the indwelling Spirit. In this context, they are distinct.

1 Thessalonians 5:


It is useful to think of the soul and spirit as different parts/faculties of a human being.

I understand that in the scriptures the Hebrew word nephesh and the Greek word psykhe are translated soul. It's also my understanding that in the scriptures the word soul refers to a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal has.(Genesis 1:20; Genesis 2:7; Numbers 31:28; 1Peter 3:20) God tells us how he created the first man Adam at Genesis 2:7 which says, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." So going by Genesis 2:7 it's telling us that God took dust from the ground and formed a flesh and blood human body, then God blew the breath or spirit of life into that flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul, or living person. So it's my understanding from the scriptures that the scriptures don't say human beings or animals have souls but instead the scriptures teach us that human beings and animals are souls.

In contrast to the way that the term "soul" is used in many religious contexts, the Bible shows that both the Hebrew word nephesh and the Greek word psykhe, in connection with earthly creatures, whether they are animal or human, refers to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. So the Hebrew word nephesh and the Greek word psykhe can be translated , "life," "creature," "person," "one's whole being," or simply as a personal pronoun( for example, "I" for "my soul"). When referring to doing something with one's whole soul, it means to do it with one's whole being, wholeheartedly, or with one's whole life(Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). In some contexts, these original language words can be used to refer to the desire or appetite of a living creature. They can also refer to a dead person or a dead body.(Numbers 6:6; Proverbs 23:2; Isaiah 56:11; Haggai 2:13).


The Hebrew word ruach and the Greek word pneuma which is often translated "spirit," have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to "wind," "the active life force in earthly creatures" (human or animals), "the impelling force that issues from a person's figurative heart and causes him/her to say and do things in a certain way," "inspired expressions originating from an invisible source," "spirit persons," and God's active force."(Holy Spirit)
Exodus 35:21; Psalm 104:29; Matthew 12:43; Luke 11:13