Questions for Adventists

[Adventist Heretic]

Also, I have one additional question of great importance, and that is, how are SDA efforts against gay marriage, transsexual propaganda directed towards children,
abortion and euthanasia structured,

I am not sure what you are getting at, by the term "structured" please explain.
The offical postion on gay marriage is that they are opposed to it. BUT in recent years in the colleges there has been a major push for a move to the left and more inclusion of LGBT+ by the liberal progressive wing of the church. This wing is relatively new and young and has it's strongest hold among the academics. Spectrum Magazine is the champion of these views. the coast are the places where the Progressive have the strongest holds. PUC, pacific union college, AUC atlantic Union college (until it shut down) Washington DC Adventist University, La serria Univerisity and Loma LInda University. They are the most liberal. Union college has had bouts of this but a lot of the people have retired. PUC which I was most recently connected too. Had members of the class which were openly Gay and professors where openly pushing for some kind of acceptence. the most liberal areas of the chruch are North America, Europe & Australia, I am not sure how that effects the church in those areas, people in liberal areas who go to church tend to be more conservative, because they are choosing it for themselves. if they were liberal they would not go to church.


ON the issue of abortion the church is pro-choice. A decision made by the leadership of the church in 1984 with out the consent of the membership.

As far a euthanasia goes. I am not sure they have a postion? I have never heard of it.

and does the SDA oppose birth control like the Catholics and traditional Orthodox and Protestants?

no, the SDA Church dose not oppose birth control.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The thing I'm really interested in talking about here is the laws about clean/unclean

this is a myth. The standard it not Clean/unclean. The standard is the Garden of Eden. The SDA health message was formulated at a time when health reform was a big idea in societ. Graham of Graham Craker fame, and Lister of Listerene mouthwash were amoung many of the people looking for new way to improve the health of people. The church saw the benefit of helping people with their health as a way to witness and to evanglize.
The SDA looked to the bible to find counsel on diet and health. that included the prefall diet, the post fall diet, the post flood diet and the Mosaic requirements. That is the basis of there health message. They promote the orignal diet in the garden of eden and the ideal Goal. we should try to live as close to that as possible.

and tithing.

when I was growing up it was preached on regularly and almost manditory. in NA it is still there but it depends who your pastor is.

I have met someone who claims to be SDA who says that it's not an official belief of the SDA Church that those are Commandments, more like recommendations. I looked on the official website and couldn't find anything about food and tithing laws being Commandments. Is it there and I missed it? Thanks!

there are a lot of thing not in the offical beliefs that are offical. the prophetic interpretation is almost completly missing except for the 1844 date of daniel 8:14, but it is the foundation of being an SDA.

 

[tall73]

this is a myth. The standard it not Clean/unclean. The standard is the Garden of Eden. The SDA health message was formulated at a time when health reform was a big idea in societ. Graham of Graham Craker fame, and Lister of Listerene mouthwash were amoung many of the people looking for new way to improve the health of people. The church saw the benefit of helping people with their health as a way to witness and to evanglize.
The SDA looked to the bible to find counsel on diet and health. that included the prefall diet, the post fall diet, the post flood diet and the Mosaic requirements. That is the basis of there health message. They promote the orignal diet in the garden of eden and the ideal Goal. we should try to live as close to that as possible.

when I was growing up it was preached on regularly and almost manditory. in NA it is still there but it depends who your pastor is.

To build on what Adventist Heretic is saying, Adventists do have in their official beliefs reference to the clean and unclean food laws, as posted earlier.

However, as AH noted, not everything is in the official fundamental beliefs. Adventists place emphasis on not eating meat in general, based on the garden, and also upon Ellen White's visions.

So if you attended an Adventist church that had a potluck dinner that week in many places it would be very rare to have even clean meats served.

I was at a potluck when a non-Adventist brought a chicken dish and the folks placing the food on the table had a bit of a theological crisis about whether they should serve it at all. Some proposed putting a sign indicating it was real meat in case someone was confused and ate it by accident. In that congregation's past they had rules against serving meat (or coffee!) at potlucks. But the issue hadn't come up for a while.

Eventually they put it out and folks just largely avoided it, other than some surprised stares. The exception were a few who ate meat at home, but wouldn't dare bring it to a potluck, They happily ate it so that the non-Adventist didn't feel bad!

On the other hand it is true as well that some churches are more liberal. I went to one Adventist potluck where a member went out after church and bought pepperoni pizzas to bring to potluck, which would be a triple-scandal for most Adventist congregations, because it had not only meat, but unclean meat, and was purchased on sabbath. I was rather surprised to see it, but several there ate it.

 

[BobRyan]

That the three persons are coeternal is the doctrine of the Nicene Creed.

Which is what I agree with.

It also teaches us that the Son is begotten, not made, and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, both doctrines being scriptural, and neither contradicting the principal of coeternality, that is to say, having a beginning or end, which are temporal events.

Having no beginning points us to a different definition for the term begotten.

 

[BobRyan]

this is a myth. The standard it not Clean/unclean. The standard is the Garden of Eden.

The standard in scripture.

Lev 11 is scripture but as you point out in our health message we point to the ideal which is Eden -- a vegan diet.

But we do not say it is a sin to be vegetarian or a sin to eat clean meat.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

To give more understanding of the clean and unclean food issue / health message. Adventism for at least a hundred years or more promoted to lacto oval vegetarian diet meaning vegetables and egg and cheese along with tofu meat substitute analogs. In the early 90s the vegan crowd showed up. That created a bit of a controversy. Their plant-based only. So you will see that at potlucks as well. SDA should go vegan usually do it out of a sense of spiritual entitlement and pride. They are superior to you. The vegetarians and the vegans look down on people to eat meat. At least in North America.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

To give more understanding of the clean and unclean food issue / health message. Adventism for at least a hundred years or more promoted to lacto oval vegetarian diet meaning vegetables and egg and cheese along with tofu meat substitute analogs. In the early 90s the vegan crowd showed up. That created a bit of a controversy. Their plant-based only. So you will see that at potlucks as well. SDA should go vegan usually do it out of a sense of spiritual entitlement and pride. They are superior to you. The vegetarians and the vegans look down on people to eat meat. At least in North America.

From my bible, it says only God knows the heart, we should leave the judging to Him.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

From my bible, it says only God knows the heart, we should leave the judging to Him.

Case in point. This adds nothing to the conversation. As far as the issue of the heart is it has nothing to do with the issue of the heart it's what comes out of their mouth. And they tell you they are superior to you because they're vegan or their vegetarian and they look down on other people because they eat meat and they say so that's not an issue of the heart. You don't have to make any guesses on that.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Why are you here? This adds nothing to the conversation. As far as the issue of the heart is it has nothing to do with the issue of the heart it's what comes out of their mouth. And they tell you they are superior to you because they're vegan or their vegetarian and they look down on other people because they eat meat and they say so that's not an issue of the heart. You don't have to make any guesses on that.

I'm here because this is an Adventist thread, I am actually an Adventist who believes in the 28 fundamental beliefs.

I was raised around Adventists my whole life and never have I ever heard these words coming from an Adventist. I also have a hard time believing anyone would say I am superior to you because I am vegan. Is your claim that all Adventist say this? You indicated everyone in North America and my guess you do not know every Adventist in North America. This is an issue of the heart when it comes to pride and only God knows the heart.

 

[BobRyan]

To give more understanding of the clean and unclean food issue / health message. Adventism for at least a hundred years or more promoted to lacto oval vegetarian diet meaning vegetables and egg and cheese along with tofu meat substitute analogs. In the early 90s the vegan crowd showed up.

In the 1800's Ellen White showed up.

"God might as easily have provided them with flesh as with manna, but a restriction was placed upon them for their good. It was His purpose to supply them with food better suited to their wants than the feverish diet to which many had become accustomed in Egypt. The perverted appetite was to be brought into a more healthy state, that they might enjoy the food originally provided for man—the fruits of the earth, which God gave to Adam and Eve in Eden. It was for this reason that the Israelites had been deprived, in a great measure, of animal food." PP 378.1

To satisfy the wants of His people, the Lord gave them bread from heaven. “Man did eat angels’ food.” Psalm 78:25. Yet they were not satisfied. In Egypt their taste had become perverted. God designed to restore their appetite to a pure, healthy state, in order that they might enjoy the simple fruits that were given to Adam and Eve in Eden. He was about to establish them in a second Eden, a goodly land, where they might enjoy the fruits and grains that He would provide for them. He purposed to remove the feverish diet upon which they had subsisted in Egypt; for He wished them to be in perfect health and soundness when they entered the goodly land to which He was leading them, so that the surrounding heathen nations might be constrained to glorify the God of Israel, the God who had done so wonderful a work for His people. Unless the people who acknowledged Him as the God of heaven were in perfect soundness of health, His name could not be glorified. 25LtMs, Ms 69, 1912, par. 8

In order to know what are the best foods, we must study God's original plan for man's diet. He who created man and who understands his needs appointed Adam his food. “Behold,” He said, “I have given you every herb yielding seed, ... and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food.” Upon leaving Eden to gain his livelihood by tilling the earth under the curse of sin, man received permission to eat also “the herb of the field.” TSDF 125.2
Grains, fruits, nuts, and vegetables constitute the diet chosen for us by our Creator. These foods, prepared in as simple and natural a manner as possible, are the most healthful and nourishing. They impart a strength, a power of endurance, and a vigor of intellect, that are not afforded by a more complex and stimulating diet. TSDF 125.3


The idea that this information was the result of a 1990's vegan crowd is hard to square with the historic record.

 

[Leaf473]

Does that include "do not take God's name in vain" in our POV

Jesus perfectly complied with all the Law of God - as everyone admits.

But do you use "fulfill" to mean "delete and ignore from now on"??

No.
What word (s) do SDA's commonly use to describe laws like animal sacrifice laws? Do they say they are "fulfilled", "deleted", "ended" or some other word?

Is that how you view "Do not take God's name in vain" and "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy"??

No.

 

[BobRyan]

Case in point. This adds nothing to the conversation. As far as the issue of the heart is it has nothing to do with the issue of the heart it's what comes out of their mouth. And they tell you they are superior to you because they're vegan or their vegetarian and they look down on other people because they eat meat and they say so that's not an issue of the heart. You don't have to make any guesses on that.

Are you familiar with the Matt 7 concept of "bad fruit"??

 

[BobRyan]

No.
What word (s) do SDA's commonly use to describe laws like animal sacrifice laws? Do they say they are "fulfilled", "deleted", "ended" or some other word?

we talk about Heb 10:4-12 to discuss the laws regarding animals sacrifice and offerings - how about you?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I'm here because this is an Adventist thread, I am actually an Adventist who believes in the 28 fundamental beliefs.

I was raised around Adventists my whole life and never have I ever heard these words coming from an Adventist. I also have a hard time believing anyone would say I am superior to you because I am vegan. Is your claim that all Adventist say this? You indicated everyone in North America and my guess you do not know every Adventist in North America. This is an issue of the heart when it comes to pride and only God knows the heart.

I can give you names of people who say that. It is a common problem that people who get involved in the health message start acting Superior to other people it's a form of pride. Just had some old lady who's had a life of complete and utter destruction get up in my face and be self-righteous to me and virtue signal because somebody got an ice cream and she didn't think it was the right thing to do. A woman literally stuck her nose up at me. You are not presenting adventism as it really is. Adventism is also changed since the seventies and eighties and the early 90s. Some cases for the better in other cases for the worse. The social makeup of advertism is more complex than people like you want to admit. You have a very limited view of adventism. Just comes across and everything you say. It's a very idealistic worldview. This is part of the SDA mindset of always selling the ideal.

 

[Leaf473]

Nope.

We affirm a number of commands that are not ceremonial

Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself
Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart
...

Glad to help --

Do you still claim to reject the commandments of God as we find them in scripture when it comes to the TEN - saying they don't apply to you as we find them in scripture??

The question is invalid. I never did reject them.

I do believe we are supposed to keep them in principle, not to the letter.

Is there a place on the official SDA website where it talks about laws in addition to the ten commandments that they believe are still in effect?

 

[BobRyan]

To build on what Adventist Heretic is saying, Adventists do have in their official beliefs reference to the clean and unclean food laws, as posted earlier.

However, as AH noted, not everything is in the official fundamental beliefs. Adventists place emphasis on not eating meat in general, based on the garden, and also upon Ellen White's visions.

Indeed - as mentioned earlier

We have always stated that the Eden diet is best and that the post-flood diet that included meat was not the first choice given to man - but was necessary due to some other issues. Still even the clean-vs-unclean meat distinction is stated in Gen 7-9

 

[BobRyan]

The question is invalid. I never did reject them.

I asked you point blank if you accepted the Commandments of God - as He gave them in scripture.
Do you remember what your answer was? Have you changed your mind recently?

I do believe we are supposed to keep them in principle, not to the letter.

Do you mean by "do not keep them in letter?"
Do you mean "Sabbath but not on the seventh day of the week?"
Do you mean "turn the Sabbath into your every day activity?"

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA looked to the bible to find counsel on diet and health. that included the prefall diet, the post fall diet, the post flood diet and the Mosaic requirements. That is the basis of there health message.

Which came about in the Adventist church long before the 1990's as I am sure you would agree.

 

[Leaf473]

I see you in that role at times - but it does not need to be that way.
Sticking with the obvious - a lot of things that you claim are foggy - are in fact very clear.

Great! Is it clear what laws in addition to the ten commandments SDA's keep, and is this clearly stated on their official website?

It appears you are singling out the exact PART of the discussion where there is such vast agreement in your arguments as if "we simply should not notice".

I think the key is leaving out a key part in a quote. I just presented the full sentence

Then you seem take no care at all to go for that part where the debate actually exists across many Christian groups when you make your own objections to "The TEN" and "The Sabbath" - because your version seems to be a deleted Sabbath and a TEN that is nailed to the cross. Something none of the others in that list are doing

That's because they're using an altered 10 in practice.

If you look at what I endorse in practice, it's pretty much the same. I just talk about it in a different way

 

[BobRyan]

you seem take no care at all to go for that part where the debate actually exists across many Christian groups when you make your own objections to "The TEN" and "The Sabbath" - because your version seems to be a deleted Sabbath and a TEN that is nailed to the cross. Something none of the others in that list are doing

That's because they're using an altered 10 in practice.

You seem to affirm my statement for what you are doing and then give your reason as to why you are doing it.

If you look at what I endorse in practice, it's pretty much the same.

the same as what?

1. Same as those who affirm the continued Sabbath but edit it to point to week-day-1 after the cross. Affirming it was given to mankind in Eden as the 7th and not changed until the cross?
2. Same as deleting the Sabbath from the ten? Not claiming that any worship is being done in compliance with the Sabbath command since it is deleted, and never applied to all mankind.?
3. Same as having all ten nailed to the cross in Col 2??