Eternal punishment

[Der Alte]

One thing we can know with absolute certainty is that nobody will enter heaven without faith in Jesus Christ. Thus, the vast majority of humanity, who will have never even have heard the name of Jesus Christ, will be automatically excluded. They will be righteously excluded, as well, because of their works which will be judged to be evil - because all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.

I think you are incorrect. God would not punish anyone for what they don't know. These vss. Include infants, small children, the intellectually challenged and those living in remote areas and never heard the gospel.

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 2:14
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

 

[Lost Witness]

Its ECT.
The lake of fire is closed up.
Second death means those who are in it will never walk amongst men again.
Were told sin is contagious.
GOD is the God of life.
He's not going to undo something he's created but he can't allow it to exist outside of the lake of fire either as it's contagious.
So he seals up the lake.
People continue to live on in the lake of fire but they are alone, in darkness. Only company is the sounds of weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The concept of annilation isn't scriptural at all.
GOD is eternal, he's the only constant.
He sustains us all.
Doesn't mean that he has to bless us.
While on earth he blesses us, with air, food, sleep, comfort, rest, laughter, peace, happiness, joy, love
All things he takes from us.
A life devoid of those things is still life, just not a blessed one.
This is why it's called eternal separation from God.
To simply be burnt up, to cease existing. There's no separation.
No regret for our actions, therefore no punishment.
LORD willing we'll be spared eternal punishment.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think you are incorrect. God would not punish anyone for what they don't know. These vss. Include infants, small children, the intellectually challenged and those living in remote areas and never heard the gospel.

Romans 4:15​

(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.​

Romans 5:13​

(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

Romans 2:14​

(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

We do have a particular conundrum here. If, as the New Testament asserts multiple times, there is no salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, then only believers will be in heaven. Scripture, as we all know, is quite silent regarding the fate of infants, idiots, and lunatics. That still leaves an enormous number of individuals who fall into the class of (relatively) competent unbelievers who, in an ideal world, would hear the gospel, believe and be saved. However, this is not to be their particular experience. The RCC developed the concept of Limbo for these individuals, which it now completely disavows.

If one will enter heaven despite never having had the opportunity to believe in Jesus Christ, then the door to universalism is thrown wide open and there is an enormously strong disincentive to evangelize non-Christians. Why evangelize them if, in fact, they will end up cast into the lake of fire, as opposed to entering heaven?

One can develop a curious permutation of Calvinism in which God has elected His people regardless of any cooperation or belief on their part. Thus, some infants will be saved, some idiots will be saved, some lunatics will be saved, some "Christians" will be saved, some Muslims will be saved, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Der Alte]

We do have a particular conundrum here. If, as the New Testament asserts multiple times, there is no salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, then only believers will be in heaven. Scripture, as we all know, is quite silent regarding the fate of infants, idiots, and lunatics. That still leaves an enormous number of individuals who fall into the class of (relatively) competent unbelievers who, in an ideal world, would hear the gospel, believe and be saved. However, this is not to be their particular experience. The RCC developed the concept of Limbo for these individuals, which it now completely disavows.
If one will enter heaven despite never having had the opportunity to believe in Jesus Christ, then the door to universalism is thrown wide open and there is an enormously strong disincentive to evangelize non-Christians. Why evangelize them if, in fact, they will end up cast into the lake of fire, as opposed to entering heaven?
One can develop a curious permutation of Calvinism in which God has elected His people regardless of any cooperation or belief on their part. Thus, some infants will be saved, some idiots will be saved, some lunatics will be saved, some "Christians" will be saved, some Muslims will be saved, etc., etc., etc.

I am not a Calvinist nor am I an Armenian. I guess you did not read or could not comprehend my post which you quoted. I believe that God does NOT punish the innocent e,g, infants, small children, the mentally challenged, those living in remote areas where they have never heard the gospel. The 3 vss. I quoted spell that out.
Link to post:

Eternal punishment

One thing we can know with absolute certainty is that nobody will enter heaven without faith in Jesus Christ. Thus, the vast majority of humanity, who will have never even have heard the name of Jesus Christ, will be automatically excluded. They will be righteously excluded, as well, because...

www.christianforums.com

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am not a Calvinist nor am I an Armenian. I guess you did not read or could not comprehend my post which you quoted. I believe that God does NOT punish the innocent e,g, infants, small children, the mentally challenged, those living in remote areas where they have never heard the gospel. The 3 vss. I quoted spell that out.
Link to post:

Eternal punishment

One thing we can know with absolute certainty is that nobody will enter heaven without faith in Jesus Christ. Thus, the vast majority of humanity, who will have never even have heard the name of Jesus Christ, will be automatically excluded. They will be righteously excluded, as well, because...

www.christianforums.com

I have no Armenian ancestry, either. I do understand your position, but find it to be quite weak. The Bible is really quite silent about the eternal fate of infants, idiots, and lunatics. Although God has the perfect right to cast all unbelievers into the lake of fire, we can hope that His love prevails in these cases and that heaven will be filled to overflowing.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You guess right

Good for you! We can have a further discussion on the way up when the Rapture happens.

 

[Der Alte]

I have no Armenian ancestry, either. I do understand your position, but find it to be quite weak. The Bible is really quite silent about the eternal fate of infants, idiots, and lunatics. Although God has the perfect right to cast all unbelievers into the lake of fire, we can hope that His love prevails in these cases and that heaven will be filled to overflowing.

Did you read the 3 vss. I quoted? If so, what do you think they mean? I can't believe that God will punish infants, small children, the mentally handicapped who cannot understand the scripture. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Did you read the 3 vss. I quoted? If so, what do you think they mean? I can't believe that God will punish infants, small children, the mentally handicapped who cannot understand the scripture. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

Actually, I don't have a dog in this race. On another thread, the poster named Hammster, is adamantly convinced, based on Romans 1 (not to mention other chapters in Romans) that only the elect who consciously put their faith in Jesus Christ can be saved (if they persevere until death, that is). If anything, even though he has his scriptures to back him up, I am actually not convinced. In any event, I am without excuse.

 

[Der Alte]

Actually, I don't have a dog in this race. On another thread, the poster named Hammster, is adamantly convinced, based on Romans 1 (not to mention other chapters in Romans) that only the elect who consciously put their faith in Jesus Christ can be saved (if they persevere until death, that is). If anything, even though he has his scriptures to back him up, I am actually not convinced. In any event, I am without excuse.

Mixed metaphor "don't have a horse in this race" don't have a dog in this fight." The same person wrote the three vss. I quoted in the same writing.

Romans 4:15​

(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.​

Romans 5:13​

(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

Romans 2:14​

(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

Now let us look at a few vss. in Rom 1

Romans 1:21-26​

(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

(22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,​

(23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.​

(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:​

(25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.​

(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​

These vss. certainly seem to exclude innocents like infants, small children, the mentally handicapped, those in remote areas who never heard the gospel, etc.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Mixed metaphor "don't have a horse in this race" don't have a dog in this fight." The same person wrote the three vss. I quoted in the same writing.

Romans 4:15​

(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.​

Romans 5:13​

(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

Romans 2:14​

(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

Now let us look at a few vss. in Rom 1

Romans 1:21-26​

(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

(22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,​

(23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.​

(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:​

(25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.​

(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​

These vss. certainly seem to exclude innocents like infants, small children, the mentally handicapped, those in remote areas who never heard the gospel, etc.

I lean heavily toward your position, although Hammster sees these same passages in a very different light. If God is perfectly just, it does seem more than peculiar that He would condemn people for something they never knowingly did.

 

[Oseas]

I lean heavily toward your position, although Hammster sees these same passages in a very different light. If God is perfectly just, it does seem more than peculiar that He would condemn people for something they never knowingly did.

What? "If God is perfectly just" (?) ...

any doubt?

... it does seem more than peculiar that He would condemn people for something they never knowingly did.

Don't you know that the Word of GOD -the Word is GOD - asserts / affirm all have sinned in some way?
Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumble, not from GOD's pespective. Did you eat from the tree that GOD said not to eat, because if you eat you will die?
According to your words you did think that the tree was/ is good for food, and that it is pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, and so you are giving it also to the readers here?

 

[bbbbbbb]

What? "If God is perfectly just" (?) ...

any doubt?

... it does seem more than peculiar that He would condemn people for something they never knowingly did.

Don't you know that the Word of GOD -the Word is GOD - asserts / affirm all have sinned in some way?
Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumble, not from GOD's pespective. Did you eat from the tree that GOD said not to eat, because if you eat you will die?
According to your words you did think that the tree was/ is good for food, and that it is pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, and so you are giving it also to the readers here?

So, I take it that you believe that all stillborn babies, infants, idiots, lunatics, as well as the vast majority of mankind who will never, ever have the opportunity to put their faith in Jesus Christ will be cast into the lake of fire which burns forever and ever simply because of Adam's sin.

 

[Lost Witness]

So, I take it that you believe that all stillborn babies, infants, idiots, lunatics, as well as the vast majority of mankind who will never, ever have the opportunity to put their faith in Jesus Christ will be cast into the lake of fire which burns forever and ever simply because of Adam's sin.

Not sure unborn children or babies are sent to hell?
Not sure they are capable of knowing right from wrong?
GOD is Just.
Once we become aware of whats 'right or wrong ' Good or evil as is illustrated in scripture in the garden of Eden.

Was 'insane' at one point as an unbeliever.
Was possessed and believed at the time that I was the devil himself.
Nobody is beyond the salvation of GOD.
There's nobody the blood of the LORD can't redeem or set free from the captivity of sin.

 

[Oseas]

So, I take it that you believe that all stillborn babies, infants, idiots, lunatics, as well as the vast majority of mankind who will never, ever have the opportunity to put their faith in Jesus Christ will be cast into the lake of fire which burns forever and ever simply because of Adam's sin.

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblok, not from GOD's perspective. Have you never read Exodus 20:5 and 34:7; or Numbers 14:18 and Deuteronomy 5:9? What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, Self-executing, understand? So your opinion is good for nothing. I don't eat from your fruit, it's mortal.

GOD said : I, the Lord your GOD, am a passionate GOD. I punish children for their parents’ sins—even to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblok, not from GOD's perspective.

All the contributors to the discussion here are humans so they think like humans because that is what they are. And since no one writing posts here is God no one here has God's perspective no matter how lofty they feel they may be, spiritually speaking.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not sure unborn children or babies are sent to hell?
Not sure they are capable of knowing right from wrong?
GOD is Just.
Once we become aware of whats 'right or wrong ' Good or evil as is illustrated in scripture in the garden of Eden.

Was 'insane' at one point as an unbeliever.
Was possessed and believed at the time that I was the devil himself.
Nobody is beyond the salvation of GOD.
There's nobody the blood of the LORD can't redeem or set free from the captivity of sin.

Please tell me precisely how the blood of the LORD redeems a stillborn infant who is, by nature, a sinner and who has never had the slightest opportunity to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[Oseas]

All the contributors to the discussion here are humans so they think like humans because that is what they are. And since no one writing posts here is God no one here has God's perspective no matter how lofty they feel they may be, spiritually speaking.

Well, no one writing posts here is GOD, but the Spirit of GOD speaks in one who posts here. Have you never read? JESUS left very clear: Matthew 10:19-20
19 ... Take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

But you will not understand what JESUS said, but what the vicarivs filii dei, a filii of Devil, says.

 

[Oseas]

So, I take it that you believe that all stillborn babies, infants, idiots, lunatics, as well as the vast majority of mankind who will never, ever have the opportunity to put their faith in Jesus Christ will be cast into the lake of fire which burns forever and ever simply because of Adam's sin.

Do you have a Bible? Read what GOD did by the waters of the flood, and by the fire in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 7:17 and 21-23 - The Flood
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Genesis 19:24-25 - The Fire
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.


Luke 17:26 to 30
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the Day (this LORD's Day, the seventh and last Day) when the Son of man is revealed.

Get ready

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

the Spirit of GOD speaks in one who posts here.

One? Which one do you claim is speaking in this thread as the Holy Spirit guides?

But you will not understand what JESUS said, but what the vicarivs filii dei, a filii of Devil, says.

Did you intend "Vicarius"?

Lofty claims to Spirit guided post writing are too lofty for me. I thank you for your time and the things that your posts reveal about your approach to discussion, but I feel it is unlikely to be edifying to continue with the discussion as your posts have framed it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Do you have a Bible? Read what GOD did by the waters of the flood, and by the fire in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 7:17 and 21-23 - The Flood
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Genesis 19:24-25 - The Fire
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.


Luke 17:26 to 30
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the Day (this LORD's Day, the seventh and last Day) when the Son of man is revealed.

Get ready

Got it. Thanks.