Eternal punishment

[bbbbbbb]

Acts 16:5-7
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Spirit to preach the Word in Asia,

7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

So, ...

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

That definitely provides substance to the concept of a miniscule number of humans in heaven. I once knew of a Christian who had become convinced that at the end of the age only eight people will be saved when Jesus Christ returns. It is based on the parallelism between Noah and the Flood and Christ's comparison with that event. If God only saved eight humans in the Flood and if the last days will be comparable to that time, then it is not at all unreasonable to believe that God will only save eight individuals at the end of the age.

 

[Oseas]

The ashes are physical earthly remains after burning, souls are not touched by earthly flames and do not burn in physical flames as far as I know. What do you think a soul is? Is a soul burnable? Would it leave ashes?

The human being is formed of body, soul and spirit. Soul is the own existence, the own life, of the human being by the blood, it's his soul. The spirit is his speech, the man speaks by his spirit , by the Spirit of GOD or by the spirit of Devil or demons.

JESUS said: John 6:63 - ... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Leviticus 17:11-12
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

 

[Oseas]

That definitely provides substance to the concept of a miniscule number of humans in heaven. I once knew of a Christian who had become convinced that at the end of the age only eight people will be saved when Jesus Christ returns. It is based on the parallelism between Noah and the Flood and Christ's comparison with that event. If God only saved eight humans in the Flood and if the last days will be comparable to that time, then it is not at all unreasonable to believe that God will only save eight individuals at the end of the age.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD. What does the Word of GOD say? From Israel will be saved only a remnant: How many? 144K - Revelation 7:3-4:
3 - Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

On the other hand, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb-Revelation 7:9-10. Furthermore, verses 13-17, say:

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The human being is formed of body, soul and spirit. Soul is the own existence, the own life, of the human being by the blood, it's his soul. The spirit is his speech, the man speaks by his spirit , by the Spirit of GOD or by the spirit of Devil or demons.

"Spirit" is from Latin and it does mean, among other things, breath. And Leviticus does locate the life of a sacrificed animal in its blood. What do you think Jesus means when he says "Only the spirit gives life; the flesh is of no avail; and the words I have been speaking to you are spirit, and life."?

I offer this for your consideration. If we understand ‘the flesh’ as referring to our Lord’s flesh, we must suppose him to mean ‘the flesh without spirit, without life’, condemning the folly of those hearers who imagined that he had been speaking of his dead body in all that he said above. But it is possible to understand ‘the flesh’ in a different sense altogether, the sense in which it is contrasted, throughout the New Testament, with ‘the spirit’. In this sense it denotes the natural as opposed to the supernatural man, and especially human wisdom as opposed to divine revelation (cf. 8.15 below). The sentence will then mean, that the mystery of the Holy Eucharist must be approached by faith, not by human reasoning.

 

[Oseas]

"Spirit" is from Latin and it does mean, among other things, breath. And Leviticus does locate the life of a sacrificed animal in its blood. What do you think Jesus means when he says "Only the spirit gives life; the flesh is of no avail; and the words I have been speaking to you are spirit, and life."?

I offer this for your consideration. If we understand ‘the flesh’ as referring to our Lord’s flesh, we must suppose him to mean ‘the flesh without spirit, without life’, condemning the folly of those hearers who imagined that he had been speaking of his dead body in all that he said above. But it is possible to understand ‘the flesh’ in a different sense altogether, the sense in which it is contrasted, throughout the New Testament, with ‘the spirit’. In this sense it denotes the natural as opposed to the supernatural man, and especially human wisdom as opposed to divine revelation (cf. 8.15 below). The sentence will then mean, that the mystery of the Holy Eucharist must be approached by faith, not by human reasoning.

The main point of the posted message was to clarify that The human being(mankind) is formed of three parts: body, soul and spirit, and to highlight what JESUS said in John 6:63.
The spirit is his speech, the man speaks by his spirit , by the Spirit of GOD or by the spirit of Devil or spirit of demons.

JESUS said: John 6:63 - ... the WORDS that I speak unto you, they ARE Spirit, and they ARE life. - ETERNAL LIFE-

 

[Aussie Pete]

Ask yourself, what crime - humanly speaking - could a human being commit that would warrant eternal punishment involving the discomfort of fire and torments of some kind?

The punishment that people choose for themselves. Sinners want to remain sinners, otherwise they would accept the gospel of salvation.
John 3:
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

Christians frequently quote John 3:16. Not so much the following verses. Unrepentant sinners hide from God in this life. Why would they change in the next? God respects man's choices, but He also warns of consequences. If there were no consequences, no one would be saved. That is the reality, like it or not.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Actually, the vast majority of mankind, who have never ever heard the name of Jesus Christ in their time on this earth are condemned simply because they never believed in Jesus, nor did they have the remotest possibility of believing in Jesus. They also never willfully chose to disbelieve in Jesus. Jesus simply did not exist in their experience.

I have thought along those lines myself. Some suggest the possibility that God knows who would have chosen if they had heard. Others suggest that before judgement, people will be given the choice to submit to His Lordship. Trouble is, would that be faith? When the Lord of Glory is reigning in Jerusalem, that would not require belief in something that is not seen.
Interesting thoughts.

 

[Der Alte]

I have thought along those lines myself. Some suggest the possibility that God knows who would have chosen if they had heard. Others suggest that before judgement, people will be given the choice to submit to His Lordship. Trouble is, would that be faith? When the Lord of Glory is reigning in Jerusalem, that would not require belief in something that is not seen.
Interesting thoughts.

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 2:14
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Romans 4:15​

(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.​

Romans 5:13​

(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

Romans 2:14​

(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

Thank you.
Can you talk about Romans 2:14 for a moment. I am just curious about what you think. Thanks!

 

[Der Alte]

Thank you.
Can you talk about Romans 2:14 for a moment. I am just curious about what you think. Thanks!

God would NOT punish people for what they did not know. If a society had never heard either the OT or NT they would still have laws against murder, theft, etc.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

God would NOT punish people for what they did not know. If a society had never heard either the OT or NT they would still have laws against murder, theft, etc.

Thanks

 

[Dan Perez]

Thanks

I believe that they will be JUDGED and read Rom 2:14and 15 .

dan p

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Romans 4:15​

(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.​

Romans 5:13​

(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

Romans 2:14​

(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

The Scripture says that all those who appear before the Great White Throne will be judged according to their works, whether good or bad. We won't know the outcome for each person there, but we do know that persons who don't have their names in the Book of Life will not enter the Kingdom of God. Because we do not know the names written in the Book of Life, we have no way of knowing who is going to get to heaven, or who is going to be cast into the lake of fire along with Satan, his angels, the AntiChrist and the False Prophet.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Scripture says that all those who appear before the Great White Throne will be judged according to their works, whether good or bad. We won't know the outcome for each person there, but we do know that persons who don't have their names in the Book of Life will not enter the Kingdom of God. Because we do not know the names written in the Book of Life, we have no way of knowing who is going to get to heaven, or who is going to be cast into the lake of fire along with Satan, his angels, the AntiChrist and the False Prophet.

One thing we can know with absolute certainty is that nobody will enter heaven without faith in Jesus Christ. Thus, the vast majority of humanity, who will have never even have heard the name of Jesus Christ, will be automatically excluded. They will be righteously excluded, as well, because of their works which will be judged to be evil - because all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The Scripture says that all those who appear before the Great White Throne will be judged according to their works, whether good or bad. We won't know the outcome for each person there, but we do know that persons who don't have their names in the Book of Life will not enter the Kingdom of God. Because we do not know the names written in the Book of Life, we have no way of knowing who is going to get to heaven, or who is going to be cast into the lake of fire along with Satan, his angels, the AntiChrist and the False Prophet.

That is not true, according to God's word. Those who are born again are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. My life is hidden in god with Christ. Jesus would have to be consigned to the lake of fire if I was.

Not all Christians will enter the Kingdom of God, but that does not mean that they are cast into the Lake of fire. They will be in heaven, but as spectators so to speak.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is not true, according to God's word. Those who are born again are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. My life is hidden in god with Christ. Jesus would have to be consigned to the lake of fire if I was.

Not all Christians will enter the Kingdom of God, but that does not mean that they are cast into the Lake of fire. They will be in heaven, but as spectators so to speak.

I guess you have some Scripture references to back that up.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I guess you have some Scripture references to back that up.

You guess right

 

[bbbbbbb]

You guess right

Would you kindly share them with us? Inquiring minds would like to know.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Would you kindly share them with us? Inquiring minds would like to know.

When God's word speaks of the Christian's postion, it is "in Christ" and it is "now." I did a study once on the expression "in Christ" and "in Him" meaning the same thing. I got to 50 verses before I gave up. Point made.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Colossians 3:3 (one of my favourites) For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption.

God puts us into Christ. He crucifies our old nature and causes us to be born again. We have eternal life at that point. It is not something to look forward to (1 John 5:12)

2 Peter 1 is helpful in understanding this issue. First, we find that all Christians are partakers of the diving nature (verse 3 & 4). Second, we are exhorted not to be content with just believing. The Christian should be growing continually (verses 5-9)

Verse 10 may be contentious to some. I understand it to mean that it is possible to be born again and yet not be welcomed into God's Kingdom. Jesus said that only the born again can even see the Kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians chapter 5: The Church in Corinth had condoned sexual sin that even the unbelievers. The man in question was in a relationship with "his father's wife", by implication, his stepmother. Paul rebuked the Corinthians for tolerating such sin. He also told them to excommunicate the sinner.

From 1 Corinthians 6:9 we know that such immorality disqualifies someone from the kingdom of God. Yet this individual was obviously saved. What if he had died while living in sin? His flesh would be destroyed but his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (Verse 5)

I am often frustrated by the lack of teaching in the church. New Christians are left floundering, not knowing what they are supposed to do. As a nuumber of churches forsake the teaching of God's word, it is getting worse. New Christians need to be established in truth so that they know the victory over sin, self and Satan that is the heart of the gospel. The gospel is that of the Kingdom of God, not just going to heaven when we die. If we are not in heaven now, we will not be found there after we leave this life.

 

[bbbbbbb]

When God's word speaks of the Christian's postion, it is "in Christ" and it is "now." I did a study once on the expression "in Christ" and "in Him" meaning the same thing. I got to 50 verses before I gave up. Point made.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Colossians 3:3 (one of my favourites) For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption.

God puts us into Christ. He crucifies our old nature and causes us to be born again. We have eternal life at that point. It is not something to look forward to (1 John 5:12)

2 Peter 1 is helpful in understanding this issue. First, we find that all Christians are partakers of the diving nature (verse 3 & 4). Second, we are exhorted not to be content with just believing. The Christian should be growing continually (verses 5-9)

Verse 10 may be contentious to some. I understand it to mean that it is possible to be born again and yet not be welcomed into God's Kingdom. Jesus said that only the born again can even see the Kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians chapter 5: The Church in Corinth had condoned sexual sin that even the unbelievers. The man in question was in a relationship with "his father's wife", by implication, his stepmother. Paul rebuked the Corinthians for tolerating such sin. He also told them to excommunicate the sinner.

From 1 Corinthians 6:9 we know that such immorality disqualifies someone from the kingdom of God. Yet this individual was obviously saved. What if he had died while living in sin? His flesh would be destroyed but his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (Verse 5)

I am often frustrated by the lack of teaching in the church. New Christians are left floundering, not knowing what they are supposed to do. As a nuumber of churches forsake the teaching of God's word, it is getting worse. New Christians need to be established in truth so that they know the victory over sin, self and Satan that is the heart of the gospel. The gospel is that of the Kingdom of God, not just going to heaven when we die. If we are not in heaven now, we will not be found there after we leave this life.

Thank you. You do have a very solid biblical case.

I agree entirely with you about the absence of teaching in the church. I did a word study once regarding the Greek words for preach and teach. They are two distinct words. In almost all cases in the New Testament preaching is done by believers to unbelievers and typically is the proclamation of the gospel. In the church, however, preaching is not done, but teaching is done. Thus, one of the spiritual gifts in Ephesians is that of teachers, not preachers (they are covered in the gift of evangelists). Today, most churches conflate preaching with teaching and far too many limit themselves to preaching the gospel to, usually nonexistent, unbelievers in the congregation, leaving the Christian to fend for themselves. Pastors imagine themselves as evangelists and, indeed, many do have that gift. However, preachers in the New Testament are not teachers even as shepherds (pastors) are not evangelists. It is much more comfortable to preach the gospel to believers in a church setting than to go out to the highways and biways and compel lost folks to enter the door of the sheepfold.

In the rare cases where teaching does occur it is all to frequently done to the lowest common denominator of the congregation with the result being that very thin skim milk is given Sunday after Sunday so that after a while folks just tune out the message, because they have heard it all before. It is much more comfortable to do that rather than dig into the meat of the word which, like real meat, might be tough and chewy and controversial. Perish the thought that we would offend folks so that they would leave the church. A classic example is that of divorce and remarriage.