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Is John Mcarthur guilty of heresy?

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Gregory Thompson

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If you don't want to address it, just say so. I'm fairly certain it does make sense, and that anyone who reads it without an anti-Theotokos axe to grind can come to the same conclusion.



Wait a minute...do you think that the Holy Trinity is a like a math problem, wherein the Father is 1/3 God, Jesus is 1/3 God, and the Holy Spirit is 1/3 God, such that St. Mary only gave birth to "part" of God? The phrase "all of God" here is suggesting that you have much more fundamental problems understanding the basics of Trinitarian theology than can be addressed in a discussion like this one, which is about a finer point concerning the Incarnation in particular (which is certainly itself part of the basics of Trinitarian theology, but I assume it would be fair to say presumes a baseline understanding of what the Holy Trinity 'is', in the sense of 'what Christians believe about the Holy Trinity').


How is it doing that? I ask because everyone who embraces the title Theotokos in reference to St. Mary would say the same. Here, I'll write it here myself, as it is something I am completely comfortable writing and believing as a Coptic Orthodox believer: St. Mary, the Theotokos, did not give birth to the Father or to the Holy Spirit. She gave birth to Christ Jesus, and because of this, in conformity with our belief that Jesus is God, we call her Theotokos.

Is there anything in what I have just written that suggests that St. Mary is some kind of goddess to us? Because it is nothing more or less than what we affirm by calling her Theotokos.



How is it a side discussion or a red herring when the anti-Theotokos posters and the Nestorians use the same arguments 1,592 years apart from one another? (Nestorius having been condemned at Ephesus in 431 for objecting exactly as people here are doing.)

The point is as I've written already that this set of objections has been the only historical objection of note to the term in the entire history of Christianity. Their form -- that is to say, the form that the Church rebuked at Ephesus -- originated with Nestorius (though he himself was influenced by those around him in his formative years, such as Diodore of Tarsus), and are carried on in our day by his followers in the Church of the East, which is why that particular church is often called Nestorian (somewhat pejoratively, as it was pointed out in the "Sects of Lebanon" video that at the time of Nestorius' presiding as bishop of Constantinople, the actual bishop of the Church of the East was Dadisho). It is clear that they embrace his objections to the term, though I guess they have many modern neo-Nestorians in the western churches who might make them feel a bit less lonely, should any of them stumble upon threads such as this one.
It is not a matter of not addressing, but making the whole matter about nestorianism, when I state things to the opposite, means that the meat of your argument is a strawman. (which is why I don't address it)

However as an example. When Jesus was crucified on the cross, did the Father get a scar? In the same way, when Jesus was born: were the Father and the Holy Spirit also born in the same body? Trinity is about the Three essences of the One God. So when the Father entrusted all judgment to the Son in scripture, did this mean He entrusted it to Himself? No, that would be modalism.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The nestorian (heretical) part of this discussion is literally central, the point, the reason the thread exists. It's part of the title, it's in the OP. It's what has continually been bandied about.
What you are refusing to aknowledge is that the Nestorian argument is not new. It's not specific to protestants. It was condemened as heretical a long time ago, yet there are some who bring it back around to be refuted again.
This is the discussion, it's not the sidebar.
Your insistance on changing the meaning of words is a sidebar. i.e. Theotokos means the same thing whether you believe in intercessory prayer, specifically the intercession of the saints, or not. You could possibly reject intercession altogether and Mary is still Theotokos. The concepts are not necessarily linked.
I referred to it as a side discussion because in context of what I've been posting and actually believe .. it is a strawman.
 
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FenderTL5

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I referred to it as a side discussion because in context of what I've been posting and actually believe .. it is a strawman.
Then your approach is awkward. What you appear to be doing is trying to make a Christological statement into something else. In the process of doing so, you defend heresy.

Theotokos is a term that was and is used to define who Christ (Jesus, God the Word, the Son) is.
It's not about intercession of the saints, it's not about Catholics, etc.

This is the strawman in the discussion:
However as an example. When Jesus was crucified on the cross, did the Father get a scar? In the same way, when Jesus was born: were the Father and the Holy Spirit also born in the same body? Trinity is about the Three essences of the One God. So when the Father entrusted all judgment to the Son in scripture, did this mean He entrusted it to Himself?
What you are insisting there plays no part in traditional Christianity -Orthodox, Protestant, nor Catholic- yet that's the point you want to argue against? That's the classic strawman, building up a point that does not exist in order to tear it down.

On the other hand; Nestorian heresy is real. It was the subject of no less than two Echuemenical Councils that are accepted by the vast majority of Christendom, which includes Catholics, Protestants and Orthodoxy. The term Theotokos was and is used to describe the decision(s) of those councils concerning who Christ is. When McArthur made his snarky, misspronounced, remark about the "Thea'ah-ta'kas" he made a heretical comment.
The only question(s); why? Was it ignorance or does he know better? Was it intentional?

It would seem to me that in his zeal to denigrate the Catholics and throw them under the bus, he threw the baby under the bus also. In this instance the baby is the one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God.. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
 
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Fireinfolding

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If Jesus is God (John 1:1, John 1:18, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, 2Pet 1:2),
and if Mary is Jesus' mother
Then Mary is the mother of God.
Jesus said, "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother". Mark 3:35

Although, if I were given a choice between carrying Jesus (after the flesh) in my physical womb for 9 months or Jesus Christ being formed in me (even as He is being formed in His body by the Spirit) I would chose the later.

Jesus equated his disciples who do the will of God as the same as Mary.

Same with that woman that started blessing the physical womb and paps that gave him suck (meaning Mary) and Jesus responded, " But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:28

In both cases Mary was being used in contrast (and singularly) and Jesus made his disciples of the same, or rather who do the will of God, or they (plurally) that hear the word of God, and keep it.

The only difference between them would be one has brought him forth according to the flesh (by the power of the Spirit) and the others would be bring him forth according to the Spirit by the power of the same Spirit.
 
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The Liturgist

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Your posts are a modern revival Nestorianism. Nestorianism is a heresy rejected by the Church in the fifth century AD. Why your posts revive it is not interesting to me. It is a heresy and as such is properly condemned. Wikipedia says, "Nestorius and his teachings were eventually condemned as heretical at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and again at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. His teachings were considered as heretical not only in Chalcedonian Christianity, but even more in Oriental Orthodoxy.[6]"

Indeed, if one wants to join the most anti-Nestorian church ever, then one should join one of the Oriental Orthodox churches like the Syriac Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox, Indian Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic.

It is in my view greatly unfortunate how Nestorianism despite being recognized as a heresy by all of the early Reformers, even Calvin, has flourished since the 1800s to become arguably the most widespread Christological error, driven by a combination of poor catechesis and knee-jerk anti-Catholicism.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Then your approach is awkward. What you appear to be doing is trying to make a Christological statement into something else. In the process of doing so, you defend heresy.

Theotokos is a term that was and is used to define who Christ (Jesus, God the Word, the Son) is.
It's not about intercession of the saints, it's not about Catholics, etc.

This is the strawman in the discussion:

What you are insisting there plays no part in traditional Christianity -Orthodox, Protestant, nor Catholic- yet that's the point you want to argue against? That's the classic strawman, building up a point that does not exist in order to tear it down.

On the other hand; Nestorian heresy is real. It was the subject of no less than two Echuemenical Councils that are accepted by the vast majority of Christendom, which includes Catholics, Protestants and Orthodoxy. The term Theotokos was and is used to describe the decision(s) of those councils concerning who Christ is. When McArthur made is snarky, misspronounced, remark about the "Thea'tach-a'las" he made a heretical comment.
The only question(s); why? Was it ignorance or does he know better? Was it intentional?

It would seem to me that in his zeal to denigrate the Catholics and throw them under the bus, he threw the baby under the bus also. In this instance the baby is the one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God.. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
Oh I get it, this is not about what I was saying, you have moved on from that. It's about MacArthur, it's hard to tell what he really believes anyway so I looked it up and found this blog post.


It looks like MacArthur is speaking against Catholic Practice.

MacArthur does not even address Orthodoxy.

The main point is about Catholics elevating her above what is in scripture.

This is a valid argument.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Here is another post.

 
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chevyontheriver

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I referred to it as a side discussion because in context of what I've been posting and actually believe .. it is a strawman.
It may be that there are competing straw men. The idea that ANYBODY believes Mary birthed God WAY back in primordial history is an idea without adherents. Saying that we can't say 'mother of God' because we would mean that Mary was some primeval proto-deity creating God - That is abject silliness.

John MacArthur may not be a formal Nestorian heretic, maybe. But he is a raving anti-Catholic who denies true things because of his raving anti-Catholicism. His attack on Mary as mother of God is a straw man. NOBODY believes the heresy he is working so hard to defend against. So one wonders, outside of his reflexive need to attack Catholic things (things the Orthodox and traditional Christians share) what else might be going on that makes him adopt the signal position of Nestorius.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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This one might be relevant, but I didn't hear anything about him saying Mary wasn't his mother.

He just seemed to be demystifying the whole intercession culture around Mary. Also pointing out that those who do the will of the Father are his brothers, sisters, and mother.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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But he is a raving anti-Catholic who denies true things because of his raving anti-Catholicism.
I wouldn't say he's "raving" from watching the video posted above. But he does lay out how Jesus' attitude towards Mary in the gospels is the opposite of the attitude of the Roman Catholic church towards Mary.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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He denies free will, denies that Jesus died for every person, denies the universal saving desire of God, believe that God causes all things that come to pass (including sin). Yes, he is guilty of heresy.
Do you have links supporting these claims? I don't really follow him and all the things he says.
 
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FenderTL5

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Oh I get it, this is not about what I was saying, you have moved on from that. It's about MacArthur..
I didn't "move on," I've actually stayed on topic as defined in the opening post (OP), it's also the topic listed in the thread title.
There was/is a link in the OP ( here ). It's the comments, audio and transcribed, there that I've been addressing (specifically found in paragraph 14 of the transcription).
By extension, my comments also address anyone defending the heretical statement made by MacArthur in the link found in the OP.
 
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chevyontheriver

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He denies free will, denies that Jesus died for every person, denies the universal saving desire of God, believe that God causes all things that come to pass (including sin). Yes, he is guilty of heresy.
Those are other issues of which Protestants disagree with each other. You might want to call MacArthur a heretic but the specific issue here in this thread has been about whether he is a Nestorian or not. People argue both ways about that.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I didn't "move on," I've actually stayed on topic as defined in the opening post (OP), it's also the topic listed in the thread title.
There was/is a link in the OP ( here ). It's the comments, audio and transcribed, there that I've been addressing.
By extension, my comments also address anyone defending the heretical statement made by MacArthur in the link found in the OP.
Okay, that painful to read, but I did it anyway.

"She gave birth to God.
That is a terrible misconception. She gave birth to Jesus in his humanity. She did not give birth to God. God was never born. "

Yes. This statement is congruent with the Nestorian heresy.

It also cannot be defended with scripture.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Okay, that painful to read, but I did it anyway.

"She gave birth to God.
That is a terrible misconception. She gave birth to Jesus in his humanity. She did not give birth to God. God was never born. "

Yes. This statement is congruent with the Nestorian heresy.

It also cannot be defended with scripture.
People have to argue, when they read this kind of thing, that although it looks and smells exactly like Nestorianism that it's really some other kind of totally innocent thing. Maybe it is, but it sure looks and smells like Nestorianism.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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It is in my view greatly unfortunate how Nestorianism despite being recognized as a heresy by all of the early Reformers, even Calvin, has flourished since the 1800s to become arguably the most widespread Christological error, driven by a combination of poor catechesis and knee-jerk anti-Catholicism.
Poorly formed teachers cannot hope to form a well formed faith in those to whom they teach the faith. John MacArthur speaks with Nestorianism as the backdrop of his words so those whom he teaches will, in all likelihood, hold some kind of Nestorian Christology. Even if Mr MacArthur does not himself believe Nestorian heresies he is, nonetheless, teaching it by his words.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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So the Word united Himself with human nature, but He Himself didn't gestate in the womb of Mary, just His human nature?

Would you, then, agree with the following statement: The Word was united to a man, so that there are two: one Divine who has always existed, co-existing with one who is human. So that we could say that there are, in a sense, two sons: there's the Son of God, the Logos and there is the human son of Mary. Would you agree with that general statement?

And while I am probably giving away my cards here, I should be transparent that yes, this is a trap question. Even still, I want you to be honest, do you agree with the above?

And to those reading who think they know what I'm trying to get at here, yes you're correct.

-CryptoLugheran
Exactly
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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The arrangement of words is how we communicate ideas.

The simple fact of the matter is that any explanation given in which Mary is not the mother of God but only the "mother of the humanity" is going to be Nestorianism. That's what it is.

Drawing that inevitable conclusion out is how to correct someone from having wrong ideas about Jesus.

And saying that Mary can't be the mother of God because she only gave birth to "the humanity" is a wrong idea about Jesus. It divides Christ. There's no way to get around that.

That is why Theotokos is such an important term.

The only arguments that have been presented and are every presented are either heretical or blatantly fallacious.

Here are the kinds of fallacious arguments:

1) Genetic fallacy, Catholics call Mary the mother of God and they "worship Mary".
2) Slippery slope fallacy, if you start calling Mary the mother of God then what's to stop you from saying queen of heaven, mediatrix, et al.
3) Straw man fallacy, calling Mary the mother of God is wrong because she isn't the originator of the Divine nature.

-CryptoLutheran
Yes articulating the right doctrine and understating properly the 2 natures in Christ is crucial , especially since He is a Divine Person with a human nature. Those natures were united in the womb , the Divine pre existing as the Son and the human coming from Mary.
 
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I don't know if you're all familiar with John Mcarthur but he is a reformed theologian that is the leader of the mega church Grace Community church. This might be news to some of you and many of you probably know this already but John Mcarthur may be guilty of heresy by denying that Mary is the mother of God.

I know when he made this statement he was trying to be as anti catholic as possible (in fact he denies that Catholics are even saved in the first place even though they hold to the nicene creed like every other true mainline Christian Denomination.)

But anyway, by saying that Mary is not the mother of God is he guilty of heresy? Since historically the Christian church holds to the fact that Mary WAS the mother of God because Jesus is the son of God and Mary was his mother.

So him openly denying that Mary was the mother of God means that be doesn't believe that Jesus is divine. Because if Mary carried a half human half God baby In her womb than, she definitely is the mother of God. There's nothing Catholic about it it's a fact.

Thoughts? Can you think of other heresies Mcarthur might be openly teaching? If he doesn't repent I feel bad for him.

Audio of his claims Exposing the Idolatry of Mary Worship: An Overview
Mac is being misunderstood. He believes the Hypostatic Union and the Trinity.
 
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