Justification by Faith

[BrotherJJ]

Rom 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets.
(MY NOTE: The righteousness of God is clearly revealed independently & completely apart from the Law. The law & prophets pointed to HIM)

22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,
(MY NOTE: Righteousness comes through faith placed in Jesus sin atoning work. Not thru our self-works of anykind)

23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
(MY NOTE: Believers in Jesus sin atoning work are declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God & granted eternal life via the Fathers GIFT of grace)

25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].

26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

27 Then what becomes of [our] boasting? It is excluded [entirely ruled out, banished]. On what principle? On [the principle of good] works? No, but on the principle of faith.

28 For we maintain that an individual is justified by faith distinctly apart from works of the Law [the observance of which has nothing to do with justification, that is, being declared free of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God].
(MY NOTE: Believers in Jesus sin atoning work are justified/declared righteous & made acceptable to the Father. Through faith distinctly apart from works of the Law!)

 

[bling]

Rom 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets.
(MY NOTE: The righteousness of God is clearly revealed independently & completely apart from the Law. The law & prophets pointed to HIM)

22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,
(MY NOTE: Righteousness comes through faith placed in Jesus sin atoning work. Not thru our self-works of anykind)

23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
(MY NOTE: Believers in Jesus sin atoning work are declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God & granted eternal life via the Fathers GIFT of grace)

25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].

26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

27 Then what becomes of [our] boasting? It is excluded [entirely ruled out, banished]. On what principle? On [the principle of good] works? No, but on the principle of faith.

28 For we maintain that an individual is justified by faith distinctly apart from works of the Law [the observance of which has nothing to do with justification, that is, being declared free of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God].
(MY NOTE: Believers in Jesus sin atoning work are justified/declared righteous & made acceptable to the Father. Through faith distinctly apart from works of the Law!)

I would add further on verse 25:
Romans 3:25 New International Version (NIV) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

I use the NIV though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, I the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

There are lots of excellent benefits from being disciplined, but prior to Christ’s crucifixion, there was no way to fairly/justly discipline a rebellious disobedient repentant child seeking forgiveness and allow the child to live. The disciplines were just to hard being banishment or physical death. By Christ going to the cross we can now be “crucified with Christ”, empathetically. How severe of a disciplining is this for Christians and how would it compare to the pain and sorrow God went through while Christ was crucified?

Notice there is no language suggesting the sins are put on hold, rolled forward or dealt with later, but are “passed over”/left unpunished.

Lets look at the rest of the passage:

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive/accept that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

Have you ever stopped to think about what Christ went through while on the cross because of your actions personally?

 

[Soyeong]

Rom 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets.
(MY NOTE: The righteousness of God is clearly revealed independently & completely apart from the Law. The law & prophets pointed to HIM)

22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,
(MY NOTE: Righteousness comes through faith placed in Jesus sin atoning work. Not thru our self-works of anykind)

23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
(MY NOTE: Believers in Jesus sin atoning work are declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God & granted eternal life via the Fathers GIFT of grace)

25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].

26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

27 Then what becomes of [our] boasting? It is excluded [entirely ruled out, banished]. On what principle? On [the principle of good] works? No, but on the principle of faith.

28 For we maintain that an individual is justified by faith distinctly apart from works of the Law [the observance of which has nothing to do with justification, that is, being declared free of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God].
(MY NOTE: Believers in Jesus sin atoning work are justified/declared righteous & made acceptable to the Father. Through faith distinctly apart from works of the Law!)

To have a character trait is to be someone who chooses to express it, so for someone to be courageous is to be someone who choose to act courageously and to for God to be righteous is be someone who chooses to act righteously, so the gift of becoming righteous is the gift of becoming someone who chooses to act righteously. It would be inaccurate to describe God as righteous if He did not choose to act righteously, and there is no such thing has someone being righteous apart from them being someone who chooses to act righteously.

The only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophet is through faith in Christ (Romas 3:21-22), so God's law is His instructions for how to act righteously, not for how to result in becoming righteous as though it were earned as a wage. For example, God's law reveals that helping the poor is acting righteously, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous is through faith. So while we are declared righteous through faith apart from having perviously acting righteously in obedience to God's law, being declared righteous by faith is being declared to be someone who chooses to act righteously in obedience to it by faith. In other words, the same faith by which we are declared righteous is also expressed as being a doer of God's law, which is why being declared righteous by faith does not abolish our need to be a doer of the law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31).

Relying on what God has instructed is relying on God, not on ourselves.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to drive a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it, but where doing that work does nothing to detract from the experience being given to them as a gift. Likewise, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him through acting in accordance with His nature (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23). The opportunity to experience knowing and believing in the righteousness of God through obeying His law is indeed an incredible gift of salvation.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Not surprising the unscriptural promotion of self-works finds its way into the thread.

The posted verses (except my notes that parroted the translators) were all bible verses. Find the link here: Romans 3 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

A few supporting injections

Don't Mix The New Covenant With The Old Covenant

Matt 9
16 No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the new patch tears away from the garment, & a worse tear is made

17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst & the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. New wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved

Mk 2
21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new patch tears away from it, the new from the old, & a worse tear is made

22 No one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins & the wine is destroyed, & so are the skins. But new wine is for fresh wineskins

Lk 5
36 He also told them a parable: No one tears a piece from a new garment & puts it on an old garment. If he does, he will tear the new, & the piece from the new will not match the old.

37 No one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins & it will be spilled, & the skins will be destroyed

All 3 writers teach:

Old garments & old wine = Old covenant: righteousness/right standing accessed by works thru Law keeping dispensation.

New garments & new wine = New covenant: righteousness/right standing accessed by grace thru Faith dispensation.

Titus 3:5 """Not by works of righteousness which we have done""", but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

II Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, & called us with an holy calling, """not according to our works""" but """according to his own purpose and grace""", which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 "By grace" are ye saved" "through faith" "not of yourselves" it is the "gift" of God

This constant blathering on about our self-works in obtaining righteousness is unscriptural. It places salvations focus on us, robing our great God & Savior of the honor He earned & deserves. When we trust in Him & His finished law fulfilling works. He thru faith. (Rom 4:3-8, 5:13) imputed His righteousness onto us.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Rom 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets.
(MY NOTE: The righteousness of God is clearly revealed independently & completely apart from the Law. The law & prophets pointed to HIM)

22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,
(MY NOTE: Righteousness comes through faith placed in Jesus sin atoning work. Not thru our self-works of anykind)

23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
(MY NOTE: Believers in Jesus sin atoning work are declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God & granted eternal life via the Fathers GIFT of grace)

25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].

26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

27 Then what becomes of [our] boasting? It is excluded [entirely ruled out, banished]. On what principle? On [the principle of good] works? No, but on the principle of faith.

28 For we maintain that an individual is justified by faith distinctly apart from works of the Law [the observance of which has nothing to do with justification, that is, being declared free of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God].
(MY NOTE: Believers in Jesus sin atoning work are justified/declared righteous & made acceptable to the Father. Through faith distinctly apart from works of the Law!)

In Romans 3 & 4 Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works but he doesn’t say we are justified by faith alone. In 1 Corinthians 13:2 he says “and if I have all faith so as to move mountains and I have not love, I am nothing.”

 

[mikeforjesus]

You are justified by faith but without works when you are needed you are not repenting any can come to Christ if he has opportunity. Your name is blotted out of book of life if you don’t live according to faith but God accepts any to come at anytime that they are repentant to be saved by faith as Jesus said there are last who will be first and first last because persons are not worthy if they don’t repent but God saw others worthy to give them chance to come later.

I don’t follow church but a user shared this from John chrysostom which shows he may have had knowledge of others view but he may have added other details and church which I am not sure if ok.

also there is quote where he said even if we have 1000 good works our trust must be in Christ I don’t know where quote is.

works are characteristic of true faith to be abiding in Christ not to do works to earn but if you don’t help when you can your faith is not true but is not necessary if can not for one is accepted by true faith that he would do if could. So one hope now should be in Christ only not a previous work though that was needed to demonstrate true faith but one hope is only in Christ now though required to do works or there is risk to die then being blotted out of book of life but after doing works your hope is in Christ only.

Below is said by John chrysostom to show works are not needed if can’t do though we know he teaches works are to be done while can to ensure one is currently in Christ if he dies.

“Suppose someone should be caught in the act of adultery and the foulest crimes and then be thrown into prison. Suppose, next, that judgment was going to be passed against him and that he would be condemned. Suppose that just at that moment a letter should come from the Emperor setting free from any accounting or examination all those detained in prison. If the prisoner should refuse to take advantage of the pardon, remain obstinate and choose to be brought to trial, to give an account, and to undergo punishment, he will not be able thereafter to avail himself of the Emperor’s favor. For when he made himself accountable to the court, examination, and sentence, he chose of his own accord to deprive himself of the imperial gift.This is what happened in the case of the Jews. Look how it is. All human nature was taken in the foulest evils. “All have sinned,” says Paul. They were locked, as it were, in a prison by the curse of their transgression of the Law. The sentence of the judge was going to be passed against them. A letter from the King came down from heaven. Rather, the King himself came. Without examination, without exacting an account, he set all men free from the chains of their sins.All, then, who run to Christ are saved by his grace and profit from his gift. But those who wish to find justification from the Law will also fall from grace. They will not be able to enjoy the King’s loving-kindness because they are striving to gain salvation by their own efforts; they will draw down on themselves the curse of the Law because by the works of the Law, no flesh will find justification..What does this mean? That he has justified our race not by right actions, not by toils, not by barter and exchange, but by grace alone. Paul, too, made this clear when he said: “But now the justice of God has been made manifest apart from the Law.” But the justice of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ and not through any labor and suffering.” Chrysostom on Justification, (347 – 407 AD) Discourses Against Judaizing Christians.

 

[Soyeong]

Not surprising the unscriptural promotion of self-works finds its way into the thread.

I used Scripture to support what I said and did not say anything that was contrary to Scripture, so what I said was not unscriptural, but if you disagree, then please interact with what I said to explain why.

I did not promote self-works. Self-works do not involve relying on anyone else, so it is not self-works to rely on what God has instructed. Please address this because you keep ignoring this point.

The posted verses (except my notes that parroted the translators) were all bible verses. Find the link here: Romans 3 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

A few supporting injections

Don't Mix The New Covenant With The Old Covenant

Matt 9
16 No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the new patch tears away from the garment, & a worse tear is made

17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst & the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. New wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved

Mk 2
21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new patch tears away from it, the new from the old, & a worse tear is made

22 No one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins & the wine is destroyed, & so are the skins. But new wine is for fresh wineskins

Lk 5
36 He also told them a parable: No one tears a piece from a new garment & puts it on an old garment. If he does, he will tear the new, & the piece from the new will not match the old.

37 No one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins & it will be spilled, & the skins will be destroyed

All 3 writers teach:

Old garments & old wine = Old covenant: righteousness/right standing accessed by works thru Law keeping dispensation.

New garments & new wine = New covenant: righteousness/right standing accessed by grace thru Faith dispensation.

In all three passages, Jesus gave that parable to answer a question about why his disciples were not fasting, but that has not stopped you from blatantly taking that parable out of context and infusion it with a new meaning that has nothing to do with answering the question that he was asked. Jesus had just finished gathering his disciples, so he was not even speaking about the New Covenant at point in his ministry, nor did he establish the New Covenant until after his death. Furthermore, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by having His law written on his heart, so this has always been the one and only way of becoming righteous by grace through faith in both the OT and the NT.

Titus 3:5 """Not by works of righteousness which we have done""", but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

II Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, & called us with an holy calling, """not according to our works""" but """according to his own purpose and grace""", which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 "By grace" are ye saved" "through faith" "not of yourselves" it is the "gift" of God

This constant blathering on about our self-works in obtaining righteousness is unscriptural. It places salvations focus on us, robing our great God & Savior of the honor He earned & deserves. When we trust in Him & His finished law fulfilling works. He imputes )Rom 4:3-8, 5:13) His righteousness onto us.

While there are many verses like the ones that you listed that speak against earning our salvation by our works, there are also many verses that speak in favor of our salvation requiring works, such as Ephesians 2:10, where our salvation involves being made new creations in Christ to do good works, Romans 2:13, where only doers of the law will be justified, and Hebrews 5:9, where Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, so clearly there must be reasons for why our salvation requires us to choose to do good works other than for the purpose of earning it as a wage, such as faith.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do these works is itself the content of His gift of salvation, and the fact that God's gift of salvation requires us to participate in this training has nothing to do with "placing salvation's focus on us, robbing our greater God & Savior of the honor He earned & deserves", so you are just making things up. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so us becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

It is contradictory for you to trust in God, but not trust in God's word. God expresses His righteousness through choosing to act righteously, so that is also the way that we choose to act when He imputes His righteousness to us, and His law is His instructions for how to act righteously.

 

[BrotherJJ]

In Romans 3 & 4 Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works but he doesn’t say we are justified by faith alone. In 1 Corinthians 13:2 he says “and if I have all faith so as to move mountains and I have not love, I am nothing.”

The post never said faith alone. Having said that:

Acts 10:
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(MY NOTE: As Peter speaks (vs44) Christ's forever (Jn 14:16) salvation sealing (Eph 1:13-14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5, 2 Tim 1:14) Holy Spirit. Indwells these believing gentiles. Witnessing Jews are astonished to see, Gentiles that believed in Christ/s death & resurrection receive God's gift of the Holy Spirit/eternal life. No repentance of any kind was done, No water baptism (it comes later), No circumcision, they brought no sin sacrifice to the Temple, No Mosaic law keeping, FAITH ALONE!)

 

[BrotherJJ]

Here is a 100% copy & paste from the bible.

Justification by Faith

Rom 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets.

22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,

23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].

26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

27 Then what becomes of [our] boasting? It is excluded [entirely ruled out, banished]. On what principle? On [the principle of good] works? No, but on the principle of faith.

28 For we maintain that an individual is justified by faith distinctly apart from works of the Law [the observance of which has nothing to do with justification, that is, being declared free of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God].
Source link: Romans 3 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

Begin reading at verse 21

I will repost directly from scripture cited:

Verse 21, the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law

Verse 22, This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ

Verse 23, all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,

Verse 24, justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

Verse 25, God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin]

Verse 26, It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

Again I'll cite supporting passages all 100% copied & pasted from the bible.

Titus 3:5 """He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done""", but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Bible source link: Titus 3 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

2 Timothy 1:9 for He delivered us and saved us and called us with a holy calling [a calling that leads to a consecrated life—a life set apart—a life of purpose], """not because of our works [or because of any personal merit—we could do nothing to earn this]""", but because of His own purpose and grace [His amazing, undeserved favor] which was granted to us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago],
Bible source link: 1 Timothy 1 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. """And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;"""

9 """not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law]""", so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].
Bible source link: Ephesians 2 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

People are free to believe what they choose. Having said that, there are warnings about ADDING to scripture Pro 30:6, Rev 22:18! Good luck with doing that.

 

[Soyeong]

You are justified by faith but without works when you are needed you are not repenting any can come to Christ if he has opportunity. Your name is blotted out of book of life if you don’t live according to faith but God accepts any to come at anytime that they are repentant to be saved by faith as Jesus said there are last who will be first and first last because persons are not worthy if they don’t repent but God saw others worthy to give them chance to come later.

I don’t follow church but a user shared this from John chrysostom which shows he may have had knowledge of others view but he may have added other details and church which I am not sure if ok.

also there is quote where he said even if we have 1000 good works our trust must be in Christ I don’t know where quote is.

works are characteristic of true faith to be abiding in Christ not to do works to earn but if you don’t help when you can your faith is not true but is not necessary if can not for one is accepted by true faith that he would do if could. So one hope now should be in Christ only not a previous work though that was needed to demonstrate true faith but one hope is only in Christ now though required to do works or there is risk to die then being blotted out of book of life but after doing works your hope is in Christ only.

In Romana 2:13, Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified, so there is a connection between our works and our justification and the key is to correctly understand what that connection is and what it is not. There can be any number of reasons that someone could have for choosing to do good works, some of which are correct while others are not, such as to love God, to trust God, to know God, to testify about God, to earn their salvation, or to look pious to their neighbor. If someone does 1,000 good works in order to look pious to their neighbor, then that is their reward, so that does not necessarily mean that their trust must be in Jesus.

We have a choice between learning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly making that distinction through what He has instructed, and He will make our paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-7). So if someone helps the poor, the orphan, and the widow because they trust God with all of their heart, then the reason why they are justified is apart from having done works to earn it as a wage, but because their action means that they have faith. So that is why only doers of the law have faith and will be justified by that faith.

Below is said by John chrysostom to show works are not needed if can’t do though we know he teaches works are to be done while can to ensure one is currently in Christ if he dies.

“Suppose someone should be caught in the act of adultery and the foulest crimes and then be thrown into prison. Suppose, next, that judgment was going to be passed against him and that he would be condemned. Suppose that just at that moment a letter should come from the Emperor setting free from any accounting or examination all those detained in prison. If the prisoner should refuse to take advantage of the pardon, remain obstinate and choose to be brought to trial, to give an account, and to undergo punishment, he will not be able thereafter to avail himself of the Emperor’s favor. For when he made himself accountable to the court, examination, and sentence, he chose of his own accord to deprive himself of the imperial gift.This is what happened in the case of the Jews. Look how it is. All human nature was taken in the foulest evils. “All have sinned,” says Paul. They were locked, as it were, in a prison by the curse of their transgression of the Law. The sentence of the judge was going to be passed against them. A letter from the King came down from heaven. Rather, the King himself came. Without examination, without exacting an account, he set all men free from the chains of their sins.All, then, who run to Christ are saved by his grace and profit from his gift. But those who wish to find justification from the Law will also fall from grace. They will not be able to enjoy the King’s loving-kindness because they are striving to gain salvation by their own efforts; they will draw down on themselves the curse of the Law because by the works of the Law, no flesh will find justification..What does this mean? That he has justified our race not by right actions, not by toils, not by barter and exchange, but by grace alone. Paul, too, made this clear when he said: “But now the justice of God has been made manifest apart from the Law.” But the justice of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ and not through any labor and suffering.” Chrysostom on Justification, (347 – 407 AD) Discourses Against Judaizing Christians.

The quote fails to grasp the fullness of God's gift. If our salvation were only from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin in transgression of God's law, then our salvation would be incomplete, so our salvation from sin must also include being made to be like Christ by following his example of refraining from sin in obedience to God's law (1 Peter 2:21-22). While we do not earn our salvation from sin as the result of obeying God's law, living in obedience to it through faith in Christ is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we do not earn our salvation as the result of doing those works and we do not do those works as the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. Likewise, in Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3), so the misunderstanding comes when people mistake the experience of obeying God's law as being a means of earning our salvation as a wage rather than seeing it as being a gift.

Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself both to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20), but if someone sees God's gift of salvation as just being a pardon then they are only seeing part of what Jesus accomplished on the cross. Likewise, it contradictory to see becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law as being contrary to accepting Christ redeeming us from all lawlessness.

 

[Soyeong]

Here is a 100% copy & paste from the bible.

Justification by Faith

Rom 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets.

22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,

23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].

26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

27 Then what becomes of [our] boasting? It is excluded [entirely ruled out, banished]. On what principle? On [the principle of good] works? No, but on the principle of faith.

28 For we maintain that an individual is justified by faith distinctly apart from works of the Law [the observance of which has nothing to do with justification, that is, being declared free of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God].
Source link: Romans 3 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

Begin reading at verse 21

I will repost directly from scripture cited:

Verse 21, the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law

Verse 22, This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ

Verse 23, all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,

Verse 24, justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

Verse 25, God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin]

Verse 26, It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

Again I'll cite supporting passages all 100% copied & pasted from the bible.

Titus 3:5 """He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done""", but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Bible source link: Titus 3 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

2 Timothy 1:9 for He delivered us and saved us and called us with a holy calling [a calling that leads to a consecrated life—a life set apart—a life of purpose], """not because of our works [or because of any personal merit—we could do nothing to earn this]""", but because of His own purpose and grace [His amazing, undeserved favor] which was granted to us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago],
Bible source link: 1 Timothy 1 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. """And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;"""

9 """not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law]""", so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].
Bible source link: Ephesians 2 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

I completely agree with those verses and have spoken in regard how I think that they should be interpreted, so if you disagree, then please explain why.
https://www.sermoncentral.com/bible/amplified-bible-amp/ephesians-2?passage=Ephesians+2

People are free to believe what they choose. Having said that, there are warnings about ADDING to scripture Pro 30:6, Rev 22:18! Good luck with doing that.

I have not added anything to Scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The post never said faith alone. Having said that:

Acts 10:
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(MY NOTE: As Peter speaks (vs44) Christ's forever (Jn 14:16) salvation sealing (Eph 1:13-14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5, 2 Tim 1:14) Holy Spirit. Indwells these believing gentiles. Witnessing Jews are astonished to see, Gentiles that believed in Christ/s death & resurrection receive God's gift of the Holy Spirit/eternal life. No repentance of any kind was done, No water baptism (it comes later), No circumcision, they brought no sin sacrifice to the Temple, No Mosaic law keeping, FAITH ALONE!)

The passage doesn’t say they didn’t repent. Repentance can be simply humbling yourself to God, it can also be believing the gospel. Both of those are forms of repentance.

“Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Peter taught that repentance comes before receiving the Holy Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here is a 100% copy & paste from the bible.

Justification by Faith

Rom 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets.

22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,

23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].

26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

27 Then what becomes of [our] boasting? It is excluded [entirely ruled out, banished]. On what principle? On [the principle of good] works? No, but on the principle of faith.

28 For we maintain that an individual is justified by faith distinctly apart from works of the Law [the observance of which has nothing to do with justification, that is, being declared free of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God].
Source link: Romans 3 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

Begin reading at verse 21

I will repost directly from scripture cited:

Verse 21, the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law

Verse 22, This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ

Verse 23, all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,

Verse 24, justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

Verse 25, God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin]

Verse 26, It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

Again I'll cite supporting passages all 100% copied & pasted from the bible.

Titus 3:5 """He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done""", but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Bible source link: Titus 3 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

2 Timothy 1:9 for He delivered us and saved us and called us with a holy calling [a calling that leads to a consecrated life—a life set apart—a life of purpose], """not because of our works [or because of any personal merit—we could do nothing to earn this]""", but because of His own purpose and grace [His amazing, undeserved favor] which was granted to us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago],
Bible source link: 1 Timothy 1 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. """And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;"""

9 """not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law]""", so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].
Bible source link: Ephesians 2 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

People are free to believe what they choose. Having said that, there are warnings about ADDING to scripture Pro 30:6, Rev 22:18! Good luck with doing that.

Here’s another 100% copy/paste from the Bible.

Those who hear His words and don’t act on them will not enter the kingdom of Heaven.

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell and great was its fall.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬-‭27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BrotherJJ]

Here’s another 100% copy/paste from the Bible.

Those who hear His words and don’t act on them will not enter the kingdom of Heaven.

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell and great was its fall.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬-‭27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The verses shared for discussion were from Romans & written to NT believers (Rom 1:7).

Post #4 briefly spoke to the different covenants.

While Jesus is alive His teachings fall 100% under the OLD covenant. Although, The Lord is the same yesterday, today & forever. He treats men differently in different dispensations.

Myles Coverdale; a Bible theologian/translator from the 1500’s. He wrote the Coverdale Bible. Said, don't judge Scripture by what is spoken, or written only.

When dissecting any verse of scripture. Ask yourself, of whom, to whom, with what words, what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what is written before and what follows any single verse context.

(MY comment: The Matt of & to whom is Jews under Mosaic laws. Rom of & to whom are believers under the gospel of the God of grace (Acts 20:24). Given to Paul by the Risen Lord Himself (Acts 24:15-18) by direct revelation (Gal 1:11-12)

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
(NOTE: ALL scripture is written for our LEARNING. ALL scripture ISN'T written for our DOCTRINE. Example: Are NT believers required to get circumcised or bring an animal sacrifice to the Temple?)

Start a thread on Matt, I'm sure you'll find many interested in debating it. Best wishes, JJ

 

[BNR32FAN]

The verses shared for discussion were from Romans & written to NT believers (Rom 1:7).

Post #4 briefly spoke to the different covenants.

While Jesus is alive His teachings fall 100% under the OLD covenant. Although, The Lord is the same yesterday, today & forever. He treats men differently in different dispensations.

Myles Coverdale; a Bible theologian/translator from the 1500’s. He wrote the Coverdale Bible. Said, don't judge Scripture by what is spoken, or written only.

When dissecting any verse of scripture. Ask yourself, of whom, to whom, with what words, what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what is written before and what follows any single verse context.

(MY comment: The Matt of & to whom is Jews under Mosaic laws. Rom of & to whom are believers under the gospel of the God of grace (Acts 20:24). Given to Paul by the Risen Lord Himself (Acts 24:15-18) by direct revelation (Gal 1:11-12)

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
(NOTE: ALL scripture is written for our LEARNING. ALL scripture ISN'T written for our DOCTRINE. Example: Are NT believers required to get circumcised or bring an animal sacrifice to the Temple?)

Start a thread on Matt, I'm sure you'll find many interested in debating it. Best wishes, JJ

So then Jesus was preaching the Old Covenant during His ministry? Because I see you quoting Him in post 4 referring to the ushering in of the New Covenant. And what about post 12 and Acts 2 where Peter tells people to repent and believe? You skipped that one brother.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The verses shared for discussion were from Romans & written to NT believers (Rom 1:7).

Post #4 briefly spoke to the different covenants.

While Jesus is alive His teachings fall 100% under the OLD covenant. Although, The Lord is the same yesterday, today & forever. He treats men differently in different dispensations.

Myles Coverdale; a Bible theologian/translator from the 1500’s. He wrote the Coverdale Bible. Said, don't judge Scripture by what is spoken, or written only.

When dissecting any verse of scripture. Ask yourself, of whom, to whom, with what words, what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what is written before and what follows any single verse context.

(MY comment: The Matt of & to whom is Jews under Mosaic laws. Rom of & to whom are believers under the gospel of the God of grace (Acts 20:24). Given to Paul by the Risen Lord Himself (Acts 24:15-18) by direct revelation (Gal 1:11-12)

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
(NOTE: ALL scripture is written for our LEARNING. ALL scripture ISN'T written for our DOCTRINE. Example: Are NT believers required to get circumcised or bring an animal sacrifice to the Temple?)

Start a thread on Matt, I'm sure you'll find many interested in debating it. Best wishes, JJ

So disregard the 4 gospel accounts because those are under the old Covenant? Which is pretty much everything Jesus said during His ministry. Just disregard all of that huh? None of that has anything to do with us, right?

 

[pasifika]

In Romans 3 & 4 Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works but he doesn’t say we are justified by faith alone. In 1 Corinthians 13:2 he says “and if I have all faith so as to move mountains and I have not love, I am nothing.”

Hi, Faith is also a "work" (i.e. Work of God through those who hear and believe the Gospel). The "works" in Romans 3 is "self works" apart from God's works. So, they both works but one is God (Faith), one is "man" (works). This also reflect in the two covenants, first is works and new covenant is of Faith.

Love is the fruit of Faith... "Faith express itself through Love"..Gal 5:6

 

[Soyeong]

Hi, Faith is also a "work" (i.e. Work of God through those who hear and believe the Gospel). The "works" in Romans 3 is "self works" apart from God's works. So, they both works but one is God (Faith), one is "man" (works). This also reflect in the two covenants, first is works and new covenant is of Faith.

Love is the fruit of Faith... "Faith express itself through Love"..Gal 5:6

Do you just ignore the word "emunah" in the OT and think that faith wasn't invented until the New Covenant? For example, it Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faithfulness (emunahy) by setting God's laws before him.

 

[pasifika]

I completely agree with those verses and have spoken in regard how I think that they should be interpreted, so if you disagree, then please explain why.
Ephesians 2 amp - Read the Amplified© Bible Online - Free AMP Bible - SermonCentral.com

I have not added anything to Scripture.

Do you just ignore the word "emunah" in the OT and think that faith wasn't invented until the New Covenant? For example, it Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faithfulness (emunahy) by setting God's laws before him.

I said Old covenant Not Old Testament. New covenant was preached by the Prophets also in Old Testament.

 

[BrotherJJ]

The passage doesn’t say they didn’t repent. Repentance can be simply humbling yourself to God, it can also be believing the gospel. Both of those are forms of repentance.

“Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Peter taught that repentance comes before receiving the Holy Spirit.

1st the post topic was justification not repentance. My reply was in disagreement with your post to me. Peter in Acts 2:38 is on the Temple Mt speaking to Jews only. Every male Jew over 20 was required to travel to the Temple Mt on Pentecost. No gentiles are Holy Spirit baptized until years later at Cornelius house (Acts 10).

NT order: Faith alone 1st repentance 2nd

Anyone that believes they can conquer their own sin nature (via self-works), without the Holy Spirit's help is mistaken.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life
(MY NOTE: God has GRANTED the gentiles repentance.)

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(MY NOTE: Believers are called/lead by the Holy Spirt to obedience thru faith")

Rom 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(MY NOTE: Obedience comes from faith)

In the spirit of the forum, I've given you this reply. Start a thread on repentance, it's not the OP's intended point of discussion.