Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

[bling]

What about those folks I mentioned above? Can they accept or reject something which is completely alien to them?

Both the Canaanite woman and the folks living in Samaria had ready access to the Jewish scriptures and were hardly ignorant of what was going on in Judea.

Your assertion that each individual can exercise his or her free will to accept or reject the charity of God is proven false by the actual experiences of the lives of billions of people.

One can fall back to the argument from silence as you have done, but it does not support your assertion.

I have not interviewed "billions of people" who have never had he opportunity to accept or reject God's charity.
I do believe God hears the prays of sincere non-Christians seeking the benevolent creator of the universe's help. God works with every individual in an individual way, so they could after maturing been provided from God the opportunity to make the choice. The only true relief from the mental burden on their conscience from hurting others in the past is the creator's forgiveness, which they might ask for and receive. Our not allowing the Spirit within us to help them is our loss.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have not interviewed "billions of people" who have never had he opportunity to accept or reject God's charity.
I do believe God hears the prays of sincere non-Christians seeking the benevolent creator of the universe's help. God works with every individual in an individual way, so they could after maturing been provided from God the opportunity to make the choice. The only true relief from the mental burden on their conscience from hurting others in the past is the creator's forgiveness, which they might ask for and receive. Our not allowing the Spirit within us to help them is our loss.

I have had the opportunity to have made several trips to China, as well as Vietnam and, although I have not personally met billions of non-Christians I have met more than enough to understand their cultural situation.

First, many of them are really quite excellent people and, as such, are better than many professing Christians.
Second, the concept of a benevolent creator is utterly alien to them. In fact, if the concept of a creator might not be alien, especially to Hindus, such a creator is far from benevolent. You do not want to mess with Kali!
Third, these individuals do not see any particular need for an alien god - probably no more than you would see your need for Zarathustra.
Fourth, Chinese folks in particular tend to view religion, which is a department of the central government in Beijing, in a very negative light.

The bottom line is that these sorts of people do not consciously accept or reject something that is utterly alien to them. It would be like having you decide what you think about cohwingly apoenxotwi oxwntosg.

 

[Hammster]

Godly type Love is beyond human logic, it cannot be learned, developed or bought. It can only be accepted or rejected.

So can a heart of stone love God?

 

[Hammster]

Again, those who never have the opportunity. to accept or reject God's charity are not addressed in scripture and thus might be handled the same way as the newborn child.
The gentile Canaanite woman came to Jesus calling Him "Son of David", and she is described by Christ as having "Great Faith", while later Jesus will describe His disciples as have, "so little faith", where did she learn he was the "son of David" (Messiah)?
God will judge the hearts of people and not their knowledge.

Sounds like some people get a pass.

 

[Hammster]

The good Samaritan's heart was open to Loving.
God will judge the hearts of people.

Not a real person.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sounds like some people get a pass.

Quite true. This is borderline universalism.

 

[Hammster]

Quite true. This is borderline universalism.

At the very least, it means that the worst we could do for unreached people groups is to evangelize them.

 

[bling]

I have had the opportunity to have made several trips to China, as well as Vietnam and, although I have not personally met billions of non-Christians I have met more than enough to understand their cultural situation.

First, many of them are really quite excellent people and, as such, are better than many professing Christians.
Second, the concept of a benevolent creator is utterly alien to them. In fact, if the concept of a creator might not be alien, especially to Hindus, such a creator is far from benevolent. You do not want to mess with Kali!
Third, these individuals do not see any particular need for an alien god - probably no more than you would see your need for Zarathustra.
Fourth, Chinese folks in particular tend to view religion, which is a department of the central government in Beijing, in a very negative light.

The bottom line is that these sorts of people do not consciously accept or reject something that is utterly alien to them. It would be like having you decide what you think about cohwingly apoenxotwi oxwntosg.

I leave God's judgment to God since He looks at their hearts. I have not personally travelled to China, but some of my children and friends have. I also teach Chinese's students who have returned to China and still correspond with these new Christians. Christianity is growing rapidly in China and I would think by now there are more Chinese going to house churches in China then in the USA. Most Chinese do not like the Government and equate it with communist atheism.

 

[bling]

So can a heart of stone love God?

It has to be softened first, which can happen as they spiral down to a pigsty in their lives.

 

[bling]

Sounds like some people get a pass.

Some people never have the opportunity to obtain Godly type Love and thus only have child for wonderful parent type love in heaven.

 

[bling]

Not a real person.

The people whom God Judges the hearts of are real people and some are very much like the Good Samaritan.

 

[bling]

Quite true. This is borderline universalism.

No it is not, those who refuse God's charity go to hell.

 

[bling]

At the very least, it means that the worst we could do for unreached people groups is to evangelize them.

Not true at all, they will never have the opportunity to have Godly type Love, if we do not reach them.

 

[bbbbbbb]

At the very least, it means that the worst we could do for unreached people groups is to evangelize them.

Quite true, if, in fact, they would enter heaven as sincere sinners, rather than coming under the sound of the gospel, which reveals their sin to them.

 

[Hammster]

It has to be softened first, which can happen as they spiral down to a pigsty in their lives.

Why does it have to be softened? I thought we had free will.

 

[Hammster]

Some people never have the opportunity to obtain Godly type Love and thus only have child for wonderful parent type love in heaven.

What???

 

[Hammster]

The people whom God Judges the hearts of are real people and some are very much like the Good Samaritan.

Doesn’t change that you used a fictional person as if they were real.

 

[Hammster]

No it is not, those who refuse God's charity go to hell.

What about those who never hear about His charity?

 

[The Liturgist]

I think we can all agree that God is sovereign. This thread is meant to try to explore the extent of His sovereignty. So to start, I pose these questions.

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

God is omniscient and omnipotent, so certainly He does know every action we might engage in, and certainly He can in principle intervene to change our action. In Scripture, we do see interventions by God that do impact human behavior.

However, I would caution against regarding this as proof of Calvinism, given that these facts are known to non-Calvinists and can be universally agreed to represent Providence, but are not by themselves proof of God denying free will with respect to whether or not we opt to love Him and receive the Holy Spirit. Conversely, this also does not disprove Calvinism. Rather, what these points establish is, as the thread title suggests, the sovereignity of God, and also, very importantly, they establish the power of prayer.

It is for this reason that Christ our God instructs us to pray without ceasing. I strongly reccommend this, and also through personal experience I find in particular the Jesus Prayer “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on me, a Sinner” and other arrow prayers, such as “Kyrie eleison”, and the Lord’s Prayer, extremely beneficial. I also strongly recommend seeking the intercession of our glorious lady Theotokos and all the saints who comprise the Church Triumphant.

 

[The Liturgist]

Not a real person.

Actually, to be fair, we don’t know that. Since Christ our God is omniscient, He could well have told true stories for his parables, through His perfect knowledge of the most exemplary highs and lows of human behavior. So while it is possible the Good Samaritan is a fictional character, it is also possible that he was a real person, who did actually do the things our Lord said he did, our Lord having knowledge of these events by virtue of His omniscience.