Is John Mcarthur guilty of heresy?

[Servus]

Would it be too mariological to say that Jesus was the child of Mary? Or that Mary was the mother of Jesus? Just checking.

Can you then correct this syllogism? A.) Mary was the mother of Jesus. B.) Mary was NOT the mother of God. Because mariology. C.) Jesus was not God, at least not at his conception or his birth.

I look forward to seeing how this works for you.

I don't have a problem with it. I'm pointing why I think it's a problem. There's no need to get personal + snarky.

 

[Mark Quayle]

ViaCrucis said:
How about the Blessed and Holy Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ? Or the Blessed and Holy James the Brother of God?

That's the first time I've encountered those.

Yes, I was about to say the same. "The Blessed and Holy" Who??? That reeks of Tradition, but has no odor of Scripture.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If the logic is reasonable to say that "Mary is the mother of Jesus" is the same as to say, "Mary is the mother of God", you may as well say "Mary is the mother of the Father and the Spirit".

This is becoming inane. Good day to you.

Already addressed in a previous post. By this reasoning we cannot call Jesus God, because it would mean Jesus is also the Father and the Spirit.

That isn't what is meant, and you know that.

It's not becoming inane, but you seem to be growing hostile rather than being willing to modify your opinion when informed on this topic.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is one Person who is both God and man. To deny this--to deny the essence of what Chalcedon was trying to say--is to deny the Scriptures.

-CryptoLutheran

That's much better. "To deny...the essence of what Chalcedon was trying to say" is not the same as "To deny Chalcedon".

 

[ViaCrucis]

That's the first time I've encountered those.

That's not surprising. But they are just as traditional.

Is that from a lexicon of the bible?

No, rather the Bible, arguably, says it even stronger: that Mary is the mother of YHWH.

See Luke 1:43, "ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου", "the mother of my Lord".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[chevyontheriver]

I Agree with your approach insofar as it highlights the razor one is walking when one tries to deny that Mary is the mother of God.

I think that Arius' followers would agree to the quote above; that is why the formula of Chalcedon made it explicit as Mary is theotokos which means she bore God in her womb and is hence the mother of God. They wanted to leave no wriggle room for the Arians to claim they were maintaining the faith of the Catholic Church.

Not just the Arians, but all manner of Adoptionists who say that Jesus was not God from conception and birth but only became God later on. This is an old heresy that still finds proponents, even in CF.

The Arians would say Jesus was the highest of creations. They would choke on calling him literal God, one in being with the Father. That was too much for them.

It all comes back to ‘mother of God’ being Christological, because it says Jesus was God when he was conceived and born. Denying that Mary was the mother of God opens the way for other theologies. Someone might be inconsistent in saying Mary was not the mother of God and yet still somehow have an orthodox Christology by accident. Likely though there are other Christological problems brewing. One can have an orthodox Christology and be stuck with a bit of Mariology. Or have a heterodox Christology and put Mary in her diminished place. It’s one or the other or logical inconsistency.

 

[Servus]

I also encourage people with, “Teachers are powerless without itching ears.” A talented, educated person can influence a culture- as a deceiver, or as one deceived.
I think he actually believes most of what he says. I used to listen to him, read his books, etc….. his “tone” changes based on topics… if it’s his pet doctrine, he speaks down on others & engages an authoritative tone, almost demanding adherence to (his) rational thinking.
He has actually made comments and expressions focused on “belittling’ of his audience if they believe anything other that what he teaches.
I also realized that his interpretations of end times prophecies use manipulative phrases and serve only to distract from more important things.
LOL, don’t ask how I know that; but, I can analyze his handwriting and facial expressions also! (leftover skillset from previous life)

I've never found him to be as bad as all that.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Mark Quayle said:
Contradiction with Chalcedon = heretical?

What in the world is Chalcedon to be The Truth? I very much like the WCF but I don't consider it The Truth.

Conversely, does "Heretical" = "Disagrees with Chalcedon"?

Like the WCF, Chalcedon presents "a way to put it". It may be very good, but heresy is contradiction with Scripture, not contradiction with Chalcedon.

I have no idea what a WCF is. Your point is lost for me without knowing that.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I’m anything but orthodox, lol. But that was the only aspect I wanted to speak on. Thanks.

You are consistent though. For you Mary is not the mother of God. AND for you Jesus was not God at least at the beginning of his human life.

 

[ViaCrucis]

ViaCrucis said:
How about the Blessed and Holy Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ? Or the Blessed and Holy James the Brother of God?

Yes, I was about to say the same. "The Blessed and Holy" Who??? That reeks of Tradition, but has no odor of Scripture.

It is written in the Scriptures:

"And when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.'" - Luke 1:41-45

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Servus]

That's not surprising. But they are just as traditional.



No, rather the Bible, arguably, says it even stronger: that Mary is the mother of YHWH.

See Luke 1:43, "ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου", "the mother of my Lord".

-CryptoLutheran

You're saying kurios is the Greek equivalent of YHWH?

 

[Servus]

It is written in the Scriptures:

"And when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.'" - Luke 1:41-45

-CryptoLutheran

"27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:27-28

 

[ViaCrucis]

You're saying kurios is the Greek equivalent of YHWH?

Of course it is. That's why YHWH is rendered as "The LORD" in most English Bibles. It goes back to the Septuagint which rendered YHWH as kyrios. Every time the New Testament quotes the Old Testament where the Tetragrammaton is found, it uses kyrios.

Psalm 110:1
יְהוָה לַֽאדֹנִי שֵׁב לִֽימִינִי עַד־אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ הֲדֹם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ׃
"YHWH said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool.'"

LXX
εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου
"Said the Lord to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool.'"

Acts 2:34-35
οὐ γὰρ Δαβὶδ ἀνέβη εἰς τοὺς οὐρανούς λέγει δὲ αὐτός Εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου Κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου
"For David did not ascend into the heavens, but has said, 'Said the Lord to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies Your footstool.'"

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

"27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:27-28

The word here of importance is μενοῦν, it isn't a negation of what was said, but a particle that takes the previous statement and expands upon it. Take a look at Philippians 3:7-8, Paul says,

"But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For His sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as dung, in order that I may gain Christ."

Jesus isn't saying, "Don't call my mother blessed, instead..." He is agreeing with what was said, but then expands on it. Not only is Mary blessed, but so are all who will hear God's word and believe it. For Mary is called blessed for she heard God's word to her, and believed it; so too all who hear and believe shall also be blessed.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Mark Quayle said:
Contradiction with Chalcedon = heretical?

What in the world is Chalcedon to be The Truth? I very much like the WCF but I don't consider it The Truth.

Conversely, does "Heretical" = "Disagrees with Chalcedon"?

Like the WCF, Chalcedon presents "a way to put it". It may be very good, but heresy is contradiction with Scripture, not contradiction with Chalcedon.

Chalcedon's declaration is, in content, rather like the second part of the Athanasian Creed, can a Christian deny the incarnation and still be orthodox?

Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He was parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.

and the Athanasian creed says

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

 

[The Liturgist]

A correction in terminology is needed: I have noted that @hedrick and @Mark Quayle have used the word Mariology to refer to the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary, but this is incorrect; Mariology is defined as the theological study of the person of St. Mary, and even groups which were regarded as heretical in antiquity for refusing to venerate the Theotokos (the Antidicomarianites) or for worshipping her (the Collyridians) had Mariologies, albeit heretical Mariologies, as far as St. Epiphanius of Salamis and the majority of Eastern bishops were concerned.

The term Mariolatry is commonly used to indicate the improper and indeed heretical worship of St. Mary, which is a rare heresy, but it does have some practitioners, for example, the Palmarian Catholic Church, which engages in Mariolatry strikingly similiar to that of the Collyridians, in that they believe among other things that St. Mary is really present in the Eucharist along with our Lord. No doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox churches or the Anglican and Lutheran churches can be said to be Mariolatrous.

I would argue a specific Greek term for the veneration (doulia, or technically in the case of the Theotokos hyperdoulia, or extreme veneration, for it is agreed by the early church Fathers and by the Evangelical Catholic Lutherans and the High Church Anglicans that the Blessed Virgin Mary is deserving of extreme veneration), is not needed, because the error occurs only when St. Mary is not venerated or alternately is worshipped as a goddess, both of which are obvious errors. However, if we were to seek to construct a Greek term to refer to this veneration, it would be something like Mariodoulia, with Mariodules being venerators of St. Mary. Compare Iconodule to refer to those who reject Iconoclasm and venerate Icons (whereas those who worship icons, which like iconoclasm is forbidden by the Second Council of Nicaea for Chalcedonians, and among the Assyrians and Oriental Orthodox, by the canon law and traditions of the specific churches), the term iconolatry almost seems redundant, since such forbidden worship can be called idolatry with no loss of context. These idolatrous abusers of icons would do things like scrape the paint from an icon into the chalice during the Eucharist, which leads us to the interesting fact that violations of Eucharistic norms seem to surround both the heresy of Collyridianism and that of Iconolatry.

 

[The Liturgist]

The word here of importance is μενοῦν, it isn't a negation of what was said, but a particle that takes the previous statement and expands upon it. Take a look at Philippians 3:7-8, Paul says,

"But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For His sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as dung, in order that I may gain Christ."

Jesus isn't saying, "Don't call my mother blessed, instead..." He is agreeing with what was said, but then expands on it. Not only is Mary blessed, but so are all who will hear God's word and believe it. For Mary is called blessed for she heard God's word to her, and believed it; so too all who hear and believe shall also be blessed.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed this is one of those cases where most English language translations fall short. Another is the translation of Kohanim and Sacerdos or Hierus as “Priest,” when Priest is etymologically an Anglicization of Presbyter, and this has the effect of confusing people as to the function and ministry of Presbyters in those churches which still use the traditional English language title Priest.

 

[Servus]

The word here of importance is μενοῦν, it isn't a negation of what was said, but a particle that takes the previous statement and expands upon it. Take a look at Philippians 3:7-8, Paul says,

"But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For His sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as dung, in order that I may gain Christ."

Jesus isn't saying, "Don't call my mother blessed, instead..." He is agreeing with what was said, but then expands on it. Not only is Mary blessed, but so are all who will hear God's word and believe it. For Mary is called blessed for she heard God's word to her, and believed it; so too all who hear and believe shall also be blessed.

-CryptoLutheran

Perhaps more as to whether saying Mary is blessed exalts her above others.

“3 Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Matthew 5:3-11

 

[OldAbramBrown]

... Denying that Mary is mother of God contradicts Chalcedon, so it's by definition heretical. But it may not imply any real problem with Christology. You'd want to see more about MacArthur's Christology to judge that.

I think a lot of Protestants, not all of them ignorant, consider Mother of God to be more Mariology than Christology, both in the original historical context and now. But that doesn't necessarily imply anything about their Christology.

Yes it does because they are Holy Spirit denying (see my 156 and also the thread about absolute power over others)

 

[Servus]

Of course it is. That's why YHWH is rendered as "The LORD" in most English Bibles. It goes back to the Septuagint which rendered YHWH as kyrios. Every time the New Testament quotes the Old Testament where the Tetragrammaton is found, it uses kyrios.

Psalm 110:1
יְהוָה לַֽאדֹנִי שֵׁב לִֽימִינִי עַד־אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ הֲדֹם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ׃
"YHWH said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool.'"

LXX
εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου
"Said the Lord to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool.'"

Acts 2:34-35
οὐ γὰρ Δαβὶδ ἀνέβη εἰς τοὺς οὐρανούς λέγει δὲ αὐτός Εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου Κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου
"For David did not ascend into the heavens, but has said, 'Said the Lord to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies Your footstool.'"

-CryptoLutheran

Excellent. I was debating that in my head the other day regarding a different sort of conversation in another thread, but hadn't really done any legwork on it yet.