Is John Mcarthur guilty of heresy?

[Xeno.of.athens]

The problem being expressed by MacArthur is what's attached to "Mother of God" regarding Mary herself. Does her being the mother of God mean she is the "Queen of Heaven"? Or that she should be prayed to? And it isn't mother of God, but rather Mother of God, as if that's her royal title.

This is what happens when individual taste and preferences get elevated to doctrine. Mr MacArthur's statements go way beyond what is a reasonable response to perceived excess of devotion. He'd do much better to ask the Catholics concerned what they think "mother of God" means and what they are doing when they venerate an image of the Blessed Virgin. But, it has to be said, one gains a better following from controversy than from irenic reason.

 

[Servus]

This is what happens when individual taste and preferences get elevated to doctrine. Mr MacArthur's statements go way beyond what is a reasonable response to perceived excess of devotion. He'd do much better to ask the Catholics concerned what they think "mother of God" means and what they are doing when they venerate an image of the Blessed Virgin. But, it has to be said, one gains a better following from controversy than from irenic reason.

I was surmising what the complaint is, considering that's the universal complaint against mariology.

 

[Servus]

Do you reject a true thing that you know is true just because there are correlated things you disapprove of?

What's the true thing being rejected?

 

[Servus]

Only if understood in the appropriate sense that the mother of a king is a queen. But, also, there are ways to have a conversation--with the nuances deserving of that conversation--over appropriate veneration of Mary and inappropriate.

I believe there is a rightful way to honor Mary, and I also believe that there are ways which Rome has gone too far; dulia vs hyperdulia, basically.

What we can't do is throw the baby out with the bathwater.

As a Lutheran I don't practice invoking of the saints for their prayer; but I do believe that the Blessed and Holy Theotokos, like all the saints in heaven, pray for us.

No saints including the Apostles have such a lofty title bestowed upon them such as Blessed and Holy Theotokos.

Whether one uses a lower-case 'm' or upper-case 'M' is probably irrelevant here. At that point we're talking about a quirk of English. The use of an upper-case 'M' would indicate a proper noun, while a lower-case 'm' would indicate a regular noun, and a descriptor. I don't really think that's a significant issue to be worried about.

Well I'd refer to how it's rendered in Greek using a lexicon, but that can't be done in this case since it doesn't appear in scripture.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What's the true thing being rejected?

That the baby Mary had was actually God the eternal Son of the Father and that consequently Mary was the mother of God. Are you accepting or rejecting that? MacArthur seems to reject at least some of that. The syllogism is pretty direct. A.) Mary was the mother of a child named Jesus. B.) Jesus is fully human but also fully eternal God from the moment of conception in her womb. Therefore C.) Mary was the mother of God. MacArthur says 'no'. Nestorius also said 'no'. Traditional Christians of all sorts say 'yes'. What say you?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Well I'd refer to how it's rendered in Greek using a lexicon, but that can't be done in this case since it doesn't appear in scripture.

Biblical Greek didn't bother with capital letters. Also didn't much bother with spaces between words either.

You could check out the beginning of Luke where Elizabeth refers to Mary as 'the mother of my Lord' but of course none of those words were capitalized or spaced.

 

[chevyontheriver]

No saints including the Apostles have such a lofty title bestowed upon them such as Blessed and Holy Theotokos.

True that! John the Baptist comes closest. Then Joseph. Even Peter is way down the list.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I was surmising what the complaint is, considering that's the universal complaint against mariology.

Maybe a bit more discussion and a bit less complaining among the more vociferous complainers and we'd see a tiny bit more eye to eye. Especially since there still are folks out there that really really think Catholics believe Mary birthed the Father and the Holy Spirit in some sort of primordial creation moment. As if.

 

[Servus]

That the baby Mary had was actually God the eternal Son of the Father and that consequently Mary was the mother of God. Are you accepting or rejecting that? MacArthur seems to reject at least some of that. The syllogism is pretty direct. A.) Mary was the mother of a child named Jesus. B.) Jesus is fully human but also fully eternal God from the moment of conception in her womb. Therefore C.) Mary was the mother of God. MacArthur says 'no'. Nestorius also said 'no'. Traditional Christians of all sorts say 'yes'. What say you?

Getting down to brass tacks, neither scripture nor the writings of the apostolic fathers contains mariology. It's a man made tradition that's not actually based on any biblical or early church theology. Christ is Christ despite what the woman who gave birth to his incarnate form is called.

 

[Servus]

Maybe a bit more discussion and a bit less complaining among the more vociferous complainers and we'd see a tiny bit more eye to eye. Especially since there still are folks out there that really really think Catholics believe Mary birthed the Father and the Holy Spirit in some sort of primordial creation moment. As if.

Well that's the kind of confusion "Mother of God" can lead to. There should be an admission to that. As well as admitting that seeing people getting on their knees in supplication to a statute totally looks like idol worship.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Does that mean that you have no idea if "worship" means something different from what you've been saying Catholics offer to Blessed Mary?

That means that as far as I can tell, it amounts to worship. I don't mean exalting her to the status of God, though I've seen her used for a substitute for God, since she's a little more "accessible".

Let's just say, I honor my father and my mother. I give credit to and honor to those who labor in the word, because of the bind they are under, where false teaching is such a reproach and condemnation, yet they are driven to teach weakly, ignorantly. But I venerate nobody, and I act no different in front of a preacher. I religiously adore nobody.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Would you agree that a saint who has persevered to the end is a better example than someone who might consider or call himself or herself a saint but has not yet persevered and may not actually be a believer?

...better example of what?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I wasn't talking about what MacArthur said, rather I was talking about the historic and orthodox Christology itself.

To say "Mary is the mother of God" is identical with saying "The Child which Mary gave birth to is God". Those are identical statements and have the same meaning.

Both speak of the Child Mary had, Jesus. These are Christological statements.

So when someone says that Mary is not the mother of God, they are denying that the Child Mary bore is God.

This isn't a Protestant vs Catholic thing. Which is how so many contemporary Protestants imagine it. This is a matter of good Christology on the one hand, and bad Christology on the other.

I'm not going to accuse John MacArthur of heresy, because I don't know if he is speaking out of his own personal ignorance, or if he is attempting to undermine the foundational doctrines of the Incarnation. But I think it fair to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is simply ignorant.

The reason for this modern problem isn't, I don't think, because of heresy; but ignorance, it is the all too prevalent problem of theological illiteracy among Christians.

People take issue with this for the same reason people frequently get the doctrine of the Trinity completely wrong.

Saying "Mary isn't the mother of God" is like when I see people argue against the Eternal Generation of the Son. They are ignorant, they have not been taught basic Christian doctrine in such a way that they understand what it is that we confess and believe as Christians.

So the point of my post wasn't to address MacArthur directly, or even indirectly; but rather to give defense of basic Christian doctrine.

To say that Mary is the mother of God is synonymous with saying the Child which Mary bore is God. These statements are identical in meaning.

Understanding that is key to healing this particular theological confusion.

-CryptoLutheran

Already been through that. And since you're repeating yourself, I'll repeat myself. No, they are not the same.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Getting down to brass tacks, neither scripture nor the writings of the apostolic fathers contains mariology. It's a man made tradition that's not actually based on any biblical or early church theology. Christ is Christ despite what the woman who gave birth to his incarnate form is called.

Getting down to real brass tacks, was Jesus true God and true man from the moment of His conception in Mary's womb? Not everybody affirms that and maybe you do, or you don't. It is normal traditional Christology to say so though. If you dare not say Mary was the mother of God how do you avoid saying that AND affirming that Jesus was true God and true man from the moment of his conception.Typically something has gotta give.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't know if you're all familiar with John Mcarthur but he is a reformed theologian that is the leader of the mega church Grace Community church. This might be news to some of you and many of you probably know this already but John Mcarthur may be guilty of heresy by denying that Mary is the mother of God.

I know when he made this statement he was trying to be as anti catholic as possible (in fact he denies that Catholics are even saved in the first place even though they hold to the nicene creed like every other true mainline Christian Denomination.)

But anyway, by saying that Mary is not the mother of God is he guilty of heresy? Since historically the Christian church holds to the fact that Mary WAS the mother of God because Jesus is the son of God and Mary was his mother.

So him openly denying that Mary was the mother of God means that be doesn't believe that Jesus is divine. Because if Mary carried a half human half God baby In her womb than, she definitely is the mother of God. There's nothing Catholic about it it's a fact.

Thoughts? Can you think of other heresies Mcarthur might be openly teaching? If he doesn't repent I feel bad for him.

Audio of his claims Exposing the Idolatry of Mary Worship: An Overview

If he said that, that is full-on Nestorianism, and it is extremely disappointing, given that I admired his previous work against charismatic worship with the Strange Fire concept.

Now Nestorianism is theoretically compatible with the Nicene Creed but it has serious problems, many of which you identified in your post. Essentially, if he denies that Mary is the Mother of God, that Mary is the Theotokos, he is denying the principle of communicatio idiomatum and also he is denying the theology of the Ecumenical Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon, which historically have been affirmed by nearly all Protestants.

I myself have had a bad taste in my mouth concerning MacArthur since his really nasty remarks about Dr. Hank Haanegraaf after the latter converted along with his famiy to Eastern Orthodoxy, despite the fact that Haanegraaf at the time was fighting cancer.

 

[The Liturgist]

only yet do not believe in Christ that died on the cross are not saved.

Roman Catholics fervently believe in Christ that died on the cross. This is evinced by their extensive use of crucifixes (which are also extensively used by Lutherans, high-church Anglicans and the Eastern Orthodox, albeit EO crucifixes are typically two dimensional).

 

[The Liturgist]

No saints including the Apostles have such a lofty title bestowed upon them such as Blessed and Holy Theotokos.

No other saints had as close a relationship with God incarnate. However I would note that St. John the Baptist is venerated as the Forerunner, St. Stephen as the Illustrious Protomartyr, St. John the Beloved Disciple as The Theologian, and Saints Andrew and Peter are also greatly venerated among the Holy Apostles.

 

[Servus]

Getting down to real brass tacks, was Jesus true God and true man from the moment of His conception in Mary's womb? Not everybody affirms that and maybe you do, or you don't. It is normal traditional Christology to say so though. If you dare not say Mary was the mother of God how do you avoid saying that AND affirming that Jesus was true God and true man from the moment of his conception.Typically something has gotta give.

Jesus Christ being God is not based on any title given or not given to Mary.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Well that's the kind of confusion "Mother of God" can lead to. There should be an admission to that.

I admit only that we consider Mary to be the mother of Jesus who is God. No Catholic you can find would say Mary birthed the Father and the Holy Spirit in some sort of primordial creation moment. That is just not a thing. At all. It's a Nestorian pipe dream.

 

[chevyontheriver]

...better example of what?

A better example of a saint. As in someone you might consider emulating.