Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

[BNR32FAN]

I believe it is you who misread my post. I specified that the horses are hungry. But anyways... forget the horse, forget the carrot.
Objective = irresistible force

Ok but how does that relate to some people repenting and some refusing to repent? I apologize but I don’t see the connection.

 

[Kale100]

Ok but how does that relate to some people repenting and some refusing to repent? I apologize but I don’t see the connection.

I'm not sure yet. Leaning more towards individual repentance being on the side of free will rather than an objective. That's why I specified taking a half step forward. Still have yet to wrap my mind around that if God knows exactly how everything will happen, which 'choice' we will make, then why were we made to make those (often sinful) choices?

 

[Hammster]

Well it’s a simple question was Jesus trying to save them? “I say these things so that you may be saved”. That’s what He said. So this statement puts you in a position where you must either directly contradict what is written in the scriptures or to reverse your position. So which is it going to be?

And my answer remains the same. Jesus doesn’t try to save anyone. He does, or He doesn’t. And nothing in that text suggests otherwise. The means of salvation is the preaching of the gospel. It’s the Spirit that does the work of conversion.

 

[Hammster]

No you’re dodging every one of the verses I quoted because you’re either forced to reverse your position or contradict what is written. Hence you’re just playing games.

You didn’t quote any verses. The post where you actually quoted verses, I responded to.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And my answer remains the same. Jesus doesn’t try to save anyone. He does, or He doesn’t. And nothing in that text suggests otherwise. The means of salvation is the preaching of the gospel. It’s the Spirit that does the work of conversion.

You said that I’m making Jesus a failure but you’re calling Him a liar. You’re saying that He didn’t say those things to them so that they could be saved.

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭33‬-‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

And my answer remains the same. Jesus doesn’t try to save anyone. He does, or He doesn’t. And nothing in that text suggests otherwise. The means of salvation is the preaching of the gospel. It’s the Spirit that does the work of conversion.

You say “Jesus doesn’t try to save anyone He either does or He doesn’t”. But that is only coming from your theology not from what is actually written in the passage. See this is the common problem with Calvinists, scripture takes a back seat to their doctrines. Verses that say “the whole world” don’t really mean the whole world, verses that say God wants all men to be saved don’t really mean all men, verses that say God wants none to perish, don’t really mean He wants none to perish, verses that say people fail to remain in Christ were never actually in Christ, verses that say people have been severed from Christ and fallen from grace were never in Christ and never received grace, verses that say that God is leading people to repentance and yet they still refuse to repent, they say God was not really leading them to repentance. It’s just contradiction after contradiction after contradiction. And yet again Jesus says He’s trying to save these people and you say He’s not. Absolutely insane.

 

[Hammster]

You said that I’m making Jesus a failure but you’re calling Him a liar. You’re saying that He didn’t say those things to them so that they could be saved.

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭33‬-‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now you are just ignoring my posts.

“The means of salvation is the preaching of the gospel. It’s the Spirit that does the work of conversion.”

 

[Hammster]

You say “Jesus doesn’t try to save anyone He either does or He doesn’t”. But that is only coming from your theology not from what is actually written in the passage. See this is the common problem with Calvinists, scripture takes a back seat to their doctrines.

Wow. Resorting to baseless insults. That’s one way to go I suppose.

Verses that say “the whole world” don’t really mean the whole world,

Are you going to argue that every time “world” is used it means every person who has ever lived or will live? Let me know and we can explore this.

verses that say God wants all men to be saved don’t really mean all men,

I think you mean the one verse that’s used by synergists while ignoring context.

verses that say God wants none to perish, don’t really mean He wants none to perish,

See above

verses that say people fail to remain in Christ were never actually in Christ,

Which ones are you referring to?

verses that say people have been severed from Christ and fallen from grace were never in Christ and never received grace,

Where is that?

verses that say that God is leading people to repentance and yet they still refuse to repent,

Reference?

they say God was not really leading them to repentance. It’s just contradiction after contradiction after contradiction. And yet again Jesus says He’s trying to save these people and you say He’s not. Absolutely insane.

He never says that. So why are you asserting that He is?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Wow. Resorting to baseless insults. That’s one way to go I suppose.


Are you going to argue that every time “world” is used it means every person who has ever lived or will live? Let me know and we can explore this.

I think you mean the one verse that’s used by synergists while ignoring context.


See above

Which ones are you referring to?


Where is that?

Reference?

He never says that. So why are you asserting that He is?

I’m not interested in wasting anymore time quoting scripture to you.

 

[Hammster]

I’m not interested in wasting anymore time quoting scripture to you.

You really haven’t started.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yeah except that doesn’t address all of the implications that the verses I provided imply. It doesn’t address the fact that Jesus was trying to save those people in John 5. It doesn’t address the fact that God was trying to get those people to repent in Romans 2 or that Jesus was expecting Jezebel to repent in Revelation 2 or that Paul and Timothy were capable of being denied by Christ or that some people come to Christ but don’t remain in Him in John 15. Why would they be drawn to Christ by The Father yet allowed to fall away?

There are all sorts of implications found by many in biblical verses. As a result, there is a broad acceptance of an implicit approach to scripture rather than an explicit approach. James makes that rather clear in his letter. When one encounters a needy person one can easily imply that the person needs prayer (which is probably true) when an explicit approach would be to feed and clothe him as needed. Jesus also made a similar point in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

When God explicitly repeats Himself twice in Psalms 14 and 53 and then repeats it yet again in Romans 3:10-13 it really does not leave much wiggle room for drawing implications contrary to the explicit statements in the text.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are all sorts of implications found by many in biblical verses. As a result, there is a broad acceptance of an implicit approach to scripture rather than an explicit approach. James makes that rather clear in his letter. When one encounters a needy person one can easily imply that the person needs prayer (which is probably true) when an explicit approach would be to feed and clothe him as needed. Jesus also made a similar point in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

When God explicitly repeats Himself twice in Psalms 14 and 53 and then repeats it yet again in Romans 3:10-13 it really does not leave much wiggle room for drawing implications contrary to the explicit statements in the text.

Both of the Psalms parallel verses begin with the term “the fool says in his heart”. I don’t believe that Romans 3:10 is intended to be taken as literally as many people take it because the scriptures specifically state that numerous people were righteous. Noah, Elijah, and Job, are just a few examples. I think it’s like saying nobody reads the newspaper anymore. That statement doesn’t literally mean that zero people read the newspaper anymore, it means that very few people read the newspaper. Take for example the statement “no one is seeking God”. According to what we read in the scriptures would you say that statement describes John the Baptist? JTB leaped for joy while he was still in the womb at the presence of Jesus while He was still in Mary’s womb. I just think it’s important that we test our doctrines with all scripture and I don’t believe that the traditional doctrine of total depravity actually describes what we see in the scriptures. Furthermore we have evidence from Iranaeus that it wasn’t taught in the early church.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedienceand the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

 

[Hammster]

I should add a fourth question. Can God cause people to do things that they hadn’t thought of doing?


Then the Lord stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines and the Arabs who bordered the Ethiopians;
— 2 Chronicles 21:16

 

[bling]

And my answer remains the same. Jesus doesn’t try to save anyone. He does, or He doesn’t. And nothing in that text suggests otherwise. The means of salvation is the preaching of the gospel. It’s the Spirit that does the work of conversion.

Luke 13:34
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

 

[bling]

I should add a fourth question. Can God cause people to do things that they hadn’t thought of doing?


Then the Lord stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines and the Arabs who bordered the Ethiopians;
— 2 Chronicles 21:16

People or a person, who have been given all the opportunities they need to accept God's charity. yet refuse, will take on a lessor objective of helping others still able to change, so God can use these refusers anyway He wants, nothing more can be done to help them.

 

[Hammster]

Luke 13:34
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Why do you think Jesus’ condemnation of the Pharisees has anything to do with the topic?

 

[Hammster]

People or a person, who have been given all the opportunities they need to accept God's charity. yet refuse, will take on a lessor objective of helping others still able to change, so God can use these refusers anyway He wants, nothing more can be done to help them.

What age?

 

[bling]

Why do you think Jesus’ condemnation of the Pharisees has anything to do with the topic?

What Jesus wanted to do He could not do because they were unwilling.
You said: " Jesus doesn’t try to save anyone. He does, or He doesn’t."

This sounds like Jesus wanted to take them under His wings and protect them (keep them save or save them)
Luke 13:34
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

But it was their unwillingness not Jesus' do or not do.

 

[bling]

What age?

There is no general drop dead time, it would be different for every individual who goes to hell.

 

[Hammster]

What Jesus wanted to do He could not do because they were unwilling.
You said: " Jesus doesn’t try to save anyone. He does, or He doesn’t."

This sounds like Jesus wanted to take them under His wings and protect them (keep them save or save them)
Luke 13:34
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

But it was their unwillingness not Jesus' do or not do.

He didn’t say that he couldn’t. He said that what He was willing to do, the Pharisees were not willing to do. You have to look at the context.