Is John Mcarthur guilty of heresy?

[chevyontheriver]

Matthew 1:24-25 Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mary needed a saviour.
Mary said.
Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

What do these Scriptures, that seem to be deployed as an attempt to raise old canards, have to do with John MacArthur refusing to call Mary the mother of God? You do know that the old canards you seem to want to raise here have been refuted numerous times in numerous threads. Here they are a diversion from John MacArthur and whether he may or may not be a formal heretic for denying that Mary is the mother of God. Is he a heretic or not? Is Mary the mother of God or not?

 

[Dan Perez]

What is it that should not be pretended? Your post is very unclear. Say what you mean, please.

Are there verse that show that MARY conception is IMMACULATE ?

Is there a verse that says that MARY;S blood co-mingled with Jesus BLOOD ?

dan p

 

[Neostarwcc]

Have you ever gone to a Catholic parish and listened to the words of a mass? I think you would be surprised to see that we do go directly to Jesus with the assistance of the Holy Spirit and through them to the Father. Go and give a listen. Literally go and listen. Mary gets a tiny mention and the other saints also get a tiny mention. The prayer at mass is overwhelmingly addressed to God. We know we do not have to go through Mary. But there are times when we can.

But what does this have to do with John MacArthur? Is he right to refuse to call Mary the mother of God because of things he thinks Catholics do all wrong?

I have been to Catholic mass before. Before I converted to Christianity I went to several liberal Catholic churches as a kid. I stopped going because honestly Sunday school and church were cutting into my video game time so when I was around 9 or 10 I stopped going after my Priest told my mom that i would have to accept Jesus on my own and she couldnt force me to go.. At the age of 18 I stopped believing in God entirely. When I was 27 I converted to Christianity and I started my Christian journey in a Catholic church that my mom and Grandmother attended. How i described the services was how mass went at the church my family liked. I didn't become a Protestant until several years later and a Calvinist until like 4 years ago. There were just too many problems with Catholic theology as I began studying my Bible.

Some of it is truth and agrees with the Bible and hence mainline Christianity but a lot of it wasn't supported by scripture.

Anyway we were discussing John Mcarthur and the problems with his sermon and whether or not he was guilty of heresy from saying it. I think had Calvin gotten a whiff of this he would have had him beheaded. But then again Calvin also agreed with the Catholics about the eucharist which Mcarthur also denies.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Are there verse that show that MARY conception is IMMACULATE ?

Nothing that speaks directly of the conception of Mary. Just Luke 1: 27-28 where Mary is declared to be full of grace. As in being empty of sin, which is to say 'immaculate'.

Is there a verse that says that MARY;S blood co-mingled with Jesus BLOOD ?

Nope. The closest is the prophecy of Simeon who said a sword would pierce her soul. But no. Nothing that says her blood would be comingled with his.

You seem to raise these things as a diversion from the question of the OP about John MacArthur, as if by diverting then the questions about John MacArthur can be avoided. But the OP raised something of merit. Is John MacArthur a heretic for denying that God was incarnated and born of Mary? If she is not the mother of God then who is she the mother of? Some non-divine person?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I have been to Catholic mass before. Before I converted to Christianity I went to several liberal Catholic churches as a kid. I stopped going because honestly Sunday school and church were cutting into my video game time so when I was around 9 or 10 I stopped going after my Priest told my mom that i would have to accept Jesus on my own and she couldnt force me to go.. At the age of 18 I stopped believing in God entirely. When I was 27 I converted to Christianity and I started my Christian journey in a Catholic church that my mom and Grandmother attended. How i described the services was how mass went at the church my family liked. I didn't become a Protestant until several years later and a Calvinist until like 4 years ago. There were just too many problems with Catholic theology as I began studying my Bible.

Some of it is truth and agrees with the Bible and hence mainline Christianity but a lot of it wasn't supported by scripture.

Anyway we were discussing John Mcarthur and the problems with his sermon and whether or not he was guilty of heresy from saying it. I think had Calvin gotten a whiff of this he would have had him beheaded. But then again Calvin also agreed with the Catholics about the eucharist which Mcarthur also denies.

Interesting personal history. Thanks for sharing.

Also interesting about John MacArthur. Is he a Calvinist? I couldn't even guess. And does anyone else think that Calvin and MacArthur would not see eye to eye?

 

[Lukaris]

I see the Virgin Mother and the Church as often the same. A major example being Revelation 12:1-17. I believe God the Son spoke through Solomon in Proverbs 8 & 9 and I think the references to wisdom point to the Church and the Virgin Mother (for ex. Proverbs 9:1). The Lord Jesus Christ is always ( Hebrews 13:8) and speaks as He sees fit. It is the Church where we go to worship and I believe the Lord honors His mother who bore Him. We obviously are not to worship the Church.

I think some Protestants accept some of this type of understanding. Most, I would think, do not. I believe salvation by grace is first and foremost, living by faith unto justification and keeping the commandments ( Ephesians 2:8-10, Galatians 3:11, Romans 13:8-10 etc.). This is what is necessary for all Christians.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What is it that should not be pretended? Your post is very unclear. Say what you mean, please.

I had told @chevyontheriver not to pretend that Mary worship is not a result of the use of the term, "Mother of God" (as opposed to "mother of Jesus" and such).

Then you said,
Xeno.of.athens said:
Who, specifically, worships Mary [as God]?

so, I said,
Mark Quayle said:
Like I said, don't pretend.

1) I didn't add that little tidbit you added, "[as God]". I wonder why you did. (But, since you did, in my experience in Latin America, there are many who worship Mary, Jesus, and many Saints, and even God, or so they think. They aren't always particular, but Mary seems a little more sympathetic concerning their problems, while the various saints have their specialities, over which they hold dominion. God, I guess, being a little more remote.)

2) I said, "don't pretend", because I have a feeling both you and Chevy are aware it happens. The fact you don't know anyone personally that does so doesn't mean you aren't aware of it. I even hear they call her, "Co-Redemptrix", and it gets explained away as to what that means; then, why the name?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I had told @chevyontheriver not to pretend that Mary worship is not a result of the use of the term, "Mother of God" (as opposed to "mother of Jesus" and such).

The existence of the term 'mother of God' does not result in the worship of Mary. No more than the existence of the term 'mother of Jesus' could do the same thing. There are people who worship a great many things. There are the cargo cults observed following WWII. There is bibliolatry even among Protestants. We don't measure truths by the fact that some people don't have a good grasp of them. We measure them on their own merits.

I give you permission to teach a Catholic truth to anyone you see actually worshipping Mary. Tell him or her that Catholic teaching forbids worship of anyone or anything but God alone.

But getting back to the OP question about John MacArthur, when he denied that Mary is the mother of God, how does that twist his Christology? Because when you say Mary was not the mother of God then you are saying that the baby she bore wasn't God. Literally that's what you are saying. It's pretty simple. She was the mother of God or the mother of someone not God. So when did the human baby that Mary bore become God? When did God adopt Jesus into divinity? Catholics say that at the incarnation God became human, the divine person of the eternal Son of the Father took on full humanity at conception. Do you agree? Or does denying the maternity of Mary bearing a divine person cause you to reach a different conclusion? That's the issue in this thread. Not whether some uninformed person somewhere doesn't get it that worship belongs only to God.

 

[Servus]

I don't know if you're all familiar with John Mcarthur but he is a reformed theologian that is the leader of the mega church Grace Community church. This might be news to some of you and many of you probably know this already but John Mcarthur may be guilty of heresy by denying that Mary is the mother of God.

I know when he made this statement he was trying to be as anti catholic as possible (in fact he denies that Catholics are even saved in the first place even though they hold to the nicene creed like every other true mainline Christian Denomination.)

But anyway, by saying that Mary is not the mother of God is he guilty of heresy? Since historically the Christian church holds to the fact that Mary WAS the mother of God because Jesus is the son of God and Mary was his mother.

So him openly denying that Mary was the mother of God means that be doesn't believe that Jesus is divine. Because if Mary carried a half human half God baby In her womb than, she definitely is the mother of God. There's nothing Catholic about it it's a fact.

Thoughts? Can you think of other heresies Mcarthur might be openly teaching? If he doesn't repent I feel bad for him.

Audio of his claims Exposing the Idolatry of Mary Worship: An Overview

I've known John MacArthur ever since he became the new pastor of Grace Community church. What MacArthur is arguing against is Mariology, not the divinity of Christ. Although I know there are Catholics who consider that arguing against Mariology is tantamount to arguing against Christ's divinity.

 

[RDKirk]

Mary is the mother of the Incarnation of God. But God existed before His Incarnation and existed before Mary.

 

[Servus]

But getting back to the OP question about John MacArthur, when he denied that Mary is the mother of God, how does that twist his Christology? Because when you say Mary was not the mother of God then you are saying that the baby she bore wasn't God. Literally that's what you are saying. It's pretty simple. She was the mother of God or the mother of someone not God. So when did the human baby that Mary bore become God? When did God adopt Jesus into divinity? Catholics say that at the incarnation God became human, the divine person of the eternal Son of the Father took on full humanity at conception. Do you agree? Or does denying the maternity of Mary bearing a divine person cause you to reach a different conclusion? That's the issue in this thread. Not whether some uninformed person somewhere doesn't get it that worship belongs only to God.

When a woman becomes pregnant a person's spirit and body comes into existence. My spirit and body did not exist until I was formed in my mother's womb. But Jesus on the other hand existed as God before his body was formed in Mary's womb. Put another way, unlike everyone else, only the body of Jesus formed in Mary's womb, as His eternal God spirit has always been in existence and was never formed or given birth to.

 

[trophy33]

I don't know if you're all familiar with John Mcarthur but he is a reformed theologian that is the leader of the mega church Grace Community church. This might be news to some of you and many of you probably know this already but John Mcarthur may be guilty of heresy by denying that Mary is the mother of God.

I know when he made this statement he was trying to be as anti catholic as possible (in fact he denies that Catholics are even saved in the first place even though they hold to the nicene creed like every other true mainline Christian Denomination.)

But anyway, by saying that Mary is not the mother of God is he guilty of heresy? Since historically the Christian church holds to the fact that Mary WAS the mother of God because Jesus is the son of God and Mary was his mother.

So him openly denying that Mary was the mother of God means that be doesn't believe that Jesus is divine. Because if Mary carried a half human half God baby In her womb than, she definitely is the mother of God. There's nothing Catholic about it it's a fact.

Thoughts? Can you think of other heresies Mcarthur might be openly teaching? If he doesn't repent I feel bad for him.

Audio of his claims Exposing the Idolatry of Mary Worship: An Overview

The title "mother of God" is not used in protestantism, its not just "John McArthur position".

Such title is neither in the Bible, nor in the Apostolic or Nicene Creed.

The reason why protestants do not use it is because it leads to serious misunderstandings and even worshiping Mary, as frequently seen for example among Roman Catholics.

 

[chevyontheriver]

But God existed before His Incarnation and existed before Mary.

Who here would think otherwise?

 

[chevyontheriver]

When a woman becomes pregnant a person's spirit and body comes into existence. My spirit and body did not exist until I was formed in my mother's womb. But Jesus on the other hand existed as God before his body was formed in Mary's womb. Put another way, unlike everyone else, only the body of Jesus formed in Mary's womb, as His eternal God spirit has always been in existence and was never formed or given birth to.

So let me ask you, did Jesus have a human will, a human intellect, a human soul, human emotions? Was Jesus a fully human being or only half human and the other half God? These are important questions to answer for a complete Christology. Can you clarify your opinions for me about this?

 

[David Kent]

You had to go ALL THE WAY TO some cathedral in France to discover this? When you could have gone to visit your local parish and asked all about it and got an explanation in English. Oh well.

No. I was hitchhiking in France many years ago, when somebody who gave me a lift invited me to go to the Cathedral at Amiens as there was a memorial to the RAF there.

 

[Servus]

So let me ask you, did Jesus have a human will, a human intellect, a human soul, human emotions? Was Jesus a fully human being or only half human and the other half God? These are important questions to answer for a complete Christology. Can you clarify your opinions for me about this?

Jesus had human will as he could be tempted, but his divine will was able to withstand temptation. He had human intellect in that he developed from a baby who couldn't talk and reason to a man who could. But he also had divine intellect as seen when he knew everything about the woman he met at the well. He had a human soul and a divine spirit. Jesus had human emotions in that he experienced sadness, joy, anger, affection, distress etc as any man. But he also had a divine nature in that he did not lust nor covet nor envy nor lie nor was he greedy etc. Jesus was simultaneously 100% human and 100% God.

 

[Servus]

When it comes to Mary I don't think Catholics actually worship Mary, but I think they take veneration of Mary too far and exalt her in a way not found in scripture nor in the writings of the first church fathers. When I see people kneeling to and praying to a statue of Mary, I think that's taking veneration too far and is just too close to what appears to be worship. I very seriously doubt that the Apostles or the First Fathers such as Clement, Ignacious, Polycarp etc. bowed and prayed to a statue of Mary.

 

[trophy33]

When it comes to Mary I don't think Catholics actually worship Mary, but I think they take veneration of Mary too far and exalt her in a way not found in scripture nor in the writings of the first church fathers. When I see people kneeling to and praying to a statue of Mary, I think that's taking veneration too far and is just too close to what appears to be worship. I very seriously doubt that the Apostles or the First Fathers such as Clement, Ignacious, Polycarp etc. bowed and prayed to a statue of Mary.

They may officially say they do not worship Mary, but many of them do everything what essentially constitutes a worship (and idolatry)...

 

[RDKirk]

Who here would think otherwise?

That's why Protestants resist using the explicit phrase "Mother of God."

 

[Mark Quayle]

The existence of the term 'mother of God' does not result in the worship of Mary. No more than the existence of the term 'mother of Jesus' could do the same thing. There are people who worship a great many things. There are the cargo cults observed following WWII. There is bibliolatry even among Protestants. We don't measure truths by the fact that some people don't have a good grasp of them. We measure them on their own merits.

I give you permission to teach a Catholic truth to anyone you see actually worshipping Mary. Tell him or her that Catholic teaching forbids worship of anyone or anything but God alone.

But getting back to the OP question about John MacArthur, when he denied that Mary is the mother of God, how does that twist his Christology? Because when you say Mary was not the mother of God then you are saying that the baby she bore wasn't God. Literally that's what you are saying. It's pretty simple. She was the mother of God or the mother of someone not God. So when did the human baby that Mary bore become God? When did God adopt Jesus into divinity? Catholics say that at the incarnation God became human, the divine person of the eternal Son of the Father took on full humanity at conception. Do you agree? Or does denying the maternity of Mary bearing a divine person cause you to reach a different conclusion? That's the issue in this thread. Not whether some uninformed person somewhere doesn't get it that worship belongs only to God.

I already told you what I thought he meant and what I believe about it. I will admit no implication that God had a beginning, nor was created.

Would you say that God died on Calvary?