Is John Mcarthur guilty of heresy?

[BNR32FAN]

It's a welknown quote of his. I couldn't find a video but I found audio and a picture of him being quoted. Exposing the Idolatry of Mary Worship: An Overview

I really wish we had a better source to go on because people often single out certain statements and omit others that reflect the general context of what is being said in order to discredit a person dishonestly. John MacArthur teaches several heresies, he’s a Calvinist but I would expect that he would approach this subject a bit more cautiously because I know for a fact that he is a Trinitarian and he does teach that Jesus is in fact God and always has been. So I’m inclined to think that his motive here was not to diminish Christ’s divinity but instead to expose Mary’s veneration. So many people hear the term Theostokos or “mother of God” and reject the term because they think the focus is to venerate Mary but the original purpose for the term was to combat Gnosticism and Docetism who believed in different versions of separatism. Unfortunately I don’t have time to discuss this in detail but the purpose for the term Theostokos was to clarify that Jesus was fully God and fully man at the time of His incarnation within Mary’s womb. He did not enter into a man’s body and He was actually flesh and blood because many Gnostics actually didn’t believe that Jesus was actually flesh and blood. As for this claim against John MacArthur I think it’s propaganda, it’s well known that he is a Trinitarian and while I refute many of his doctrines I don’t think it is honest to say that he does not teach the divinity of Christ at the time of His birth.

 

[Lukaris]

McArthur is not Orthodox or Catholic, if he was agitating within either Church, I would consider him a heretic. He is speaking within whatever Protestant tradition he is in and it is best for Orthodox & Catholics to avoid his preaching. I don’t think he means any harm.

 

[chevyontheriver]

So now that we know why she was given the title " mother of God", what derived out of this title?

1) Her immaculate conception in 1854 by Pope Pius IX. Mary, the mother of God was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, saved from all stain of original sin.
2) The doctrine of the Assumption of Mary 1950 by Pope Pius XII stating that "the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
3) The doctrine sanctioned in 1954 by Pope Pius XII officially declaring Mary to be "Queen of Heaven ".

One problem with that is those things did not 'derive out of this title'. Perhaps the third one did, in a roundabout way, in that a Biblical queen was the mother of the king and not the wife of the king, as in queen Bathsheba and king David her son. Jesus is the King of Heaven among other titles.

It seems you say that these three statements have to be false, that they necessarily follow from saying Mary is the mother of God, and consequently it has to be false to say Mary is the mother of God. I would say the three statements are true, but also that they don't necessarily follow from saying Mary is the mother of God, and consequently they cannot be used to refute Mary being the mother of God. And that if you wish to refute Mary being the mother of God you should do so directly and not in such a roundabout way.

The question is about McArthur and whether he is caught in some sort of Nestorian heresy or not because of his anti-Catholicism. Is McArthur a full-fledged Nestorian or something else?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I really wish we had a better source to go on because people often single out certain statements and omit others that reflect the general context of what is being said in order to discredit a person dishonestly. John MacArthur teaches several heresies, he’s a Calvinist but I would expect that he would approach this subject a bit more cautiously because I know for a fact that he is a Trinitarian and he does teach that Jesus is in fact God and always has been. So I’m inclined to think that his motive here was not to diminish Christ’s divinity but instead to expose Mary’s veneration. So many people hear the term Theostokos or “mother of God” and reject the term because they think the focus is to venerate Mary but the original purpose for the term was to combat Gnosticism and Docetism who believed in different versions of separatism. Unfortunately I don’t have time to discuss this in detail but the purpose for the term Theostokos was to clarify that Jesus was fully God and fully man at the time of His incarnation within Mary’s womb. He did not enter into a man’s body and He was actually flesh and blood because many Gnostics actually didn’t believe that Jesus was actually flesh and blood. As for this claim against John MacArthur I think it’s propaganda, it’s well known that he is a Trinitarian and while I refute many of his doctrines I don’t think it is honest to say that he does not teach the divinity of Christ at the time of His birth.

Just as a clarification, I think the term is 'theotokos'.

I suspect MacArthur (I mistakenly used 'McArthur' because that was the title of the thread and I don't know much of anything about him otherwise) is being reflexively anti-Catholic and might actually think Catholics believe Mary birthed God way back at the beginning of time. You are right that this is primary a Christological title concerning what happened at the Incarnation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just as a clarification, I think the term is 'theotokos'.

I suspect MacArthur (I mistakenly used 'McArthur' because that was the title of the thread and I don't know much of anything about him otherwise) is being reflexively anti-Catholic and might actually think Catholics believe Mary birthed God way back at the beginning of time. You are right that this is primary a Christological title concerning what happened at the Incarnation.

Yes thank you for correcting me for some reason my autocorrect on my iPhone has it Theostokos instead of Theotokos. And what’s really weird is when I choose Theostokos it has a red line underneath it indicating that’s it’s misspelled. So autocorrect is suggesting for me to use Theostokos yet at the same time it’s telling me that’s misspelled. Lol

Make no mistake John MacArthur is no dunce, he is well educated in the early church theology and traditions. I would highly doubt that he would claim that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is the creator or origin of God because he knows that would be too far fetched. I did however find this on YouTube and I disagree with what he’s saying here. I agree that Jesus was not subordinate to Mary but I don’t think Jesus was in any way shape or form indicating to Mary that He would no longer consider her as being His mother. I see these statements of his as purely speculative and the evidence from scripture is insufficient to support such a definitive doctrinal approach to this subject.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Yes thank you for correcting me for some reason my autocorrect on my iPhone has it Theostokos instead of Theotokos. And what’s really weird is when I choose Theostokos it has a red line underneath it indicating that’s it’s misspelled. So autocorrect is suggesting for me to use Theostokos yet at the same time it’s telling me that’s misspelled. Lol

Autocorrect can be like that.

Make no mistake John MacArthur is no dunce

Not implying he is a dunce at all. But in listening to that clip I note that he sure thinks differently than I do.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Autocorrect can be like that.

Not implying he is a dunce at all. But in listening to that clip I note that he sure thinks differently than I do.

From what I see in the video I don’t feel like he’s being honest about the actual position of the church. I feel like he’s exaggerating the church’s official position to rally people to join his church. I feel like he’s misrepresenting the Catholic Church and I think he knows it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

From what I see in the video I don’t feel like he’s being honest about the actual position of the church. I feel like he’s exaggerating the church’s official position to rally people to join his church. I feel like he’s misrepresenting the Catholic Church and I think he knows it.

Seems like he is playing a game of saying something clever that could be refuted, but that refuting it would be long and hard to do. The whole idea that Jesus had NOTHING to do with Mary's business after starting to be about His Father's business misses something huge. In particular the continued relationship between Mary and the Beloved Disciple.

 

[Neostarwcc]

From what I see in the video I don’t feel like he’s being honest about the actual position of the church. I feel like he’s exaggerating the church’s official position to rally people to join his church. I feel like he’s misrepresenting the Catholic Church and I think he knows it.

I agree. He may be guilty of heresy and might need to repent of that. Afterall Mary has been known as the mother of God since the 5th century. It's not just Catholics that use the term either it's also mainline and evangelical Protestants and the Eastern Orrhodox church as well.

It makes you wonder if he is even a Trinitarian even if he's stated that Jesus is God several times before.

 

[Neostarwcc]

One thing I would like to gently correct you on is that Mary did not have a half-human baby. That baby was fully human and at the very same time fully divine. No halfsies about it at all. Jesus was and is a divine person who is at the same time as much human as you or I, differing ONLY in that He did not sin. He had a human soul and a human intellect and a human will. If He didn't then our souls and intellects and wills would not have been redeemed. That too is Catholic teaching. You can find it summarized in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and in good theology textbooks.

As to John McArthur, I have no idea what he specifically believes, but it looks like he is an example of how anti-Catholics can get into trouble when their anti-Catholicism overrides their understanding of the Bible. How far has he entered into the trap of Nestorius? I have no idea and I'm not the one who adjudicates these things thankfully.

You're absolutely correct and i agree I misspoke. Sorry about that.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It makes you wonder if he is even a Trinitarian even if he's stated that Jesus is God several times before.

To be fair, there are Trinitarians who are not that well thought out in their theology. So it's possible to be Trinitarian and be a Monotheletist for example. That is actually exceptionally common. Wrong but common. The solution there is a gentle correction because it can look a little bit arcane at times to a lot of people even if it is a matter of true doctrine.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Like I said, don't pretend.

What is it that should not be pretended? Your post is very unclear. Say what you mean, please.

 

[chevyontheriver]

So why do they say, "Mother of God", if they admit she was only the mother of the man Jesus, who was also God?

Because, being the mother of the man Jesus who was also God, she WAS the mother of God. Or else is somehow the baby Jesus not the same person as the eternal Son of the Father? You decide.

And, by the way, don't pretend that this has not misled a bunch of people into Mary-worship.

I have yet to meet such a person who worships Mary although I am told by some Protestants that such people exist in great number.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Like I said, don't pretend.

What is it that should not be pretended? Your post is very unclear. Say what you mean, please.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have yet to meet such a person who worships Mary although I am told by some Protestants that such people exist in great number.

Agreed.
Even the most ardent members of groups such as "the legion of Mary" know full well that Mary is not God and do not offer to her worship as God.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Agreed.
Even the most ardent members of groups such as "the legion of Mary" know full well that Mary is not God and do not offer to her worship as God.

I wouldn't really call it Mary worship but more that Catholics feel you have to go through Mary or the Saints to get in contact with God. The Bible says that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. What John meant by that is that we can go directly to God. God isn't secret or invisible, God has been revealed to mankind and ANYBODY can go directly to God in prayer we don't need to go through Mary or the Saints. They probably can't hear us anyway like God can.

But then again that's like telling a priest your sins instead of the taking your sins to God. It's just wrong it doesn't mean that Catholics are a bunch of priest exalting Mary worshippers. They're just mistaken.

 

[David Kent]

Let's read some history:

The title "Mother of God" (Greek: Θεοτόκος, Theotokos) was first used by the Church of Alexandria in the 4th century, and was officially adopted by the Catholic Church at the Council of Ephesus in 431. The council was convened to address the Nestorian controversy, which was a disagreement about the nature of Jesus Christ. Nestorius, the patriarch of Constantinople, argued that Jesus had two separate natures, one human and one divine. The council rejected Nestorius's teaching, and affirmed that Jesus had a single, divine nature. The council also affirmed that Mary was the Mother of God, because she gave birth to Jesus, who is God.

So now that we know why she was given the title " mother of God", what derived out of this title?

1) Her immaculate conception in 1854 by Pope Pius IX. Mary, the mother of God was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, saved from all stain of original sin.
2) The doctrine of the Assumption of Mary 1950 by Pope Pius XII stating that "the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
3) The doctrine sanctioned in 1954 by Pope Pius XII officially declaring Mary to be "Queen of Heaven ".

None of these doctrines are scriptural sound. This is why John MacArthur rebukes her title.

Blessings

Matthew 1:24-25 Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mary needed a saviour.
Mary said.
Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

 

[David Kent]

I wouldn't really call it Mary worship but more that Catholics feel you have to go through Mary or the Saints to get in contact with God. The Bible says that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. What John meant by that is that we can go directly to God. God isn't secret or invisible, God has been revealed to mankind and ANYBODY can go directly to God in prayer we don't need to go through Mary or the Saints. They probably can't hear us anyway like God can.

But then again that's like telling a priest your sins instead of the taking your sins to God. It's just wrong it doesn't mean that Catholics are a bunch of priest exalting Mary worshippers. They're just mistaken.

Have you ever been in a Catholic Cathedral? On the few times I have in France I have seen people bowing down to images, which they call saints, but the bible calls idols. It was for such a sin that God sent "His servant" Nebuchadneza to destroy the temple and send the Jews into captivity.
.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Have you ever been in a Catholic Cathedral? On the few times I have in France I have seen people bowing down to images, which they call saints, but the bible calls idols. It was for such a sin that God sent "His servant" Nebuchadneza to destroy the temple and send the Jews into captivity.

You had to go ALL THE WAY TO some cathedral in France to discover this? When you could have gone to visit your local parish and asked all about it and got an explanation in English. Oh well.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I wouldn't really call it Mary worship but more that Catholics feel you have to go through Mary or the Saints to get in contact with God. The Bible says that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. What John meant by that is that we can go directly to God. God isn't secret or invisible, God has been revealed to mankind and ANYBODY can go directly to God in prayer we don't need to go through Mary or the Saints. They probably can't hear us anyway like God can.

Have you ever gone to a Catholic parish and listened to the words of a mass? I think you would be surprised to see that we do go directly to Jesus with the assistance of the Holy Spirit and through them to the Father. Go and give a listen. Literally go and listen. Mary gets a tiny mention and the other saints also get a tiny mention. The prayer at mass is overwhelmingly addressed to God. We know we do not have to go through Mary. But there are times when we can.

But what does this have to do with John MacArthur? Is he right to refuse to call Mary the mother of God because of things he thinks Catholics do all wrong?