the Latin versus the Teutonic Brain

[Ligurian]

Two things confuse me the most: how he thinks druids aren't Celts or Celtic, and how he thinks that druids are something akin to a group or an ethnicity when they were a political-religious class.

You are confused... let me help:

"The monuments we call Druidical, must be appropriated, exclusively, to the Aborigines of the midland, and western divisions. They are found in such corners, and fastnesses, as have, in all ages, and countries, been the last retreat of the conquered, and the last that are occupied by the victorious."--Davies, Celtic Researches

"Avienus makes only one direct reference to the Celts when he mentions that beyond the tin-producing Oestrymnides was a land now occupied by the Celts, who took it from the Ligurians."--Cunliffe, Ancient Celts.

"Bertrand and Reinach both maintain the pre-Celtic origin of Druidism."
--Wright, Druidism the Ancient Faith of Britain

"so we must pass on to the non-Celtic natives, who had another religion, namely, druidism, which may be surmised to have had its origin among them."--Rhys, Celtic Britain

"Professor Rhys goes so far as to refer Druidism to the Silurian race, because Caesar mentions Britain as the birthplace of that cultus, and it is of a character which he considers non-Aryan. It is almost certain that second-sight and other ecstatic moods must be referred to the pre-Celtic races."
--MacBain, Celtic Mythology and Religion

Aborigines, Ligurians, pre-Celtic, non-Celtic, Silurian... those words are all about RACE.
Aboriginal non-Celtic natives, Silurian Ligurians, non-Celtic origin of Druidism... are you starting to see a pattern, yet?

Here's more:

"The district round the Phocaean colony of Marseilles was inhabited by Ligurian tribes, who held the region between the river Po and the Gulf of Genoa, as far as the western boundary of Etruria, and who probably extended to the west along the coast of Southern Gaul as far as the Pyrenees. They were distinguished from the Celtae, not merely by their manners and customs, but by their small stature and dark hair and eyes, and are stated by Pliny and Strabo to have inhabited Spain. They have also left marks of their presence in Central Gaul in the name of the Loire (Ligur), and possibly in Britain in the obscure name of the Lloegrians."
--Dawkins, Cave Hunting

"The swarthy complexion and curled hair of the Silures, together with their situation opposite to Spain, render it probable that a colony of the ancient Iberi possessed themselves of that territory."
--Tacitus, Agricola

"The wide extension of the Ligues westward is in agreement with the language of Eratosthenes. According to Strabo (2. i. 40, p. 92) this old geographer taught that there were three forelands projecting frorn the north—the Peloponnesian, the Italian, and the Ligurian—between the first and second of which lay the Adriatic, and between the second and third the Tyrrhenian Sea. When we remember the high reputation and the real merits of Eratosthenes, it is astonishing how little attention has been drawn to the fact that he calls the Spanish peninsula the Ligurian."
--Guest, Origines Celtae

The Celtic Language

"probably somewhere in Gaul (Gallia/Keltikê), whence it spread in various directions and at various speeds in the first millennium BC, gradually supplanting other languages... it keeps Celtic fairly close to Italy, which suits the view that Italic and Celtic were in some way linked in the second millennium"--Simms-Williams, An Alternative to Celtic from the East and Celtic from the West

"Thus according to Roman tradition the Latini were the Aborigines, or, in other words, Ligurians, a tradition of great significance in view of the fact that the populus Romanus spoke not lingua Romana, but lingua Latina. Romulus and his brother are represented as descended from Lavinia, the daughter of Latinus, the king of the Aborigines."--Ridgeway, Who Were the Romans?
__________________________________________
"Most people don't really want the truth. They just want the constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth."

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

American Pagan... would that be the Indigenous pre-Americans that used to be called Indians?

No, I'm clearly referring to you. On the little sidebar underneath your icon, it lists your nationality as American, and your religion as Pagan. Now, from my interactions with American pagans, you lot are most backwards group obsessed with Hollywood-ized, pop-culture, bastardized versions of nations and peoples that you have ZERO connection to.

Caesar said the Druids came from Britain and that those who wanted to learn from them would have to travel to Britain. Knighthood was earned, not born. The pre-Roman invasion cultures of Britain... what does that even mean? The indigenous Silures, or Sallyes as the Greeks called them, had the same burial rites that the CroMagons had... red ochre burials in Paviland cave and in Liguria, etc.

From Wikipedia, Druids:
A druid was a member of the high-ranking priestly class in ancient Celtic cultures. Druids were religious leaders as well as legal authorities, adjudicators, lorekeepers, medical professionals and political advisors.

And which groups were Celtic?

Quite a large group really. And now you're saying that Britain was the centre of the Celtic world? Even though druids would be found all over the Celtic groups in Europe?

Knighthood COULD be earned, yes but only in certain situations where a man had done a grand service to a lord or king. The firstborn sons of European nobility in the Middle Ages, 9 times out of 10, were knighted. That's they the term 'sir' is used. It refers to knights.

The Germanic Barbarians who descended on Rome didn't bring civilization, but ended it.
... War is Civilization? ... Since when?
The strongest and most blood-drenched of peoples are the ones for whom the mainstream writes history.

I never said 'war is civilization'. That's you putting words into my mouth. Stop doing that.
Also, civilization is an incredibly relative term. The Zulu people had a civilization even though they built no grand structures or written records. The Celtic Britons had a civilization even though it was not the same as the Romans or the Greeks.

And you're also just blatantly ignoring what I'm saying. You're focusing on a guy who, in my own words, "didn't accept the view that Europeans largely got everything from the Germanic peoples and instead got everything from the Mediterranean peoples." That's just switching from Nordicism to Mediterraneanism. They're both bunk forms of anthropology.

If I borrowed your labelmaker, then I might be tempted to create the label "Germanophile"... so I'm not going to do that.

Now that would be you lying since me saying that you have a truly unique and maddening desire to hate Germany and the German people is not me saying that I love them. And yes, Germanophile is a word, good job.

You are confused... let me help:

No, I'm not confused in the slightest. You said that the druids were a pre-Celtic people. They weren't. They were a socio-political caste in Celtic society. To claim they were anything else is ahistorical garbage and idiocy.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

And why is it still seemingly impossible for you to use any source written in the last 50 years or so?

 

[Ligurian]

[...]
"Avienus makes only one direct reference to the Celts when he mentions that beyond the tin-producing Oestrymnides was a land now occupied by the Celts, who took it from the Ligurians."
--Cunliffe, Ancient Celts.
[...]
"Professor Rhys goes so far as to refer Druidism to the Silurian race, because Caesar mentions Britain as the birthplace of that cultus, and it is of a character which he considers non-Aryan. It is almost certain that second-sight and other ecstatic moods must be referred to the pre-Celtic races."*
--MacBain, Celtic Mythology and Religion.
[...]
The Celtic Language

"probably somewhere in Gaul (Gallia/Keltikê), whence it spread in various directions and at various speeds in the first millennium BC, gradually supplanting other languages... it keeps Celtic fairly close to Italy, which suits the view that Italic and Celtic were in some way linked in the second millennium"
--Sims-Williams, An Alternative to Celtic from the East and Celtic from the West.
[...]

Excerpt from the post to which you thought you were replying...
(Cunliffe wrote it ca. 1997... Sims-Williams wrote in 2020... And a quote about where the Druids were based.*)

Now, from my interactions with American pagans, you lot are most backwards group obsessed with Hollywood-ized, pop-culture, bastardized versions of nations and peoples that you have ZERO connection to.

The MSM is all things hollywood and pop-culture... I don't follow the MSM... do you?

From Wikipedia, Druids:
A druid was a member of the high-ranking priestly class in ancient Celtic cultures. Druids were religious leaders as well as legal authorities, adjudicators, lorekeepers, medical professionals and political advisors.

And which groups were Celtic?

Which were Celtic-people or which were Celtic-speakers?
And what's the timeframe of Wiki's map?
Because Chronology ALWAYS matters:

Dawkins, Cave Hunting, Fig. 68
(The question-mark in Cornwall should show what Beddoe found...
that the Cornish were the darkest of the island, making them the same
as the small dark people of Wales... About whom Dawkins wrote his
book The Place of Welsh in the History of Britain... As late as 1965, when
they did a blood-group analysis on the mines of Wales, they found what
Beddoe and Dawkins had found... that the small dark people who worked
the mines were a very different type from their large pale supervisors:
Type O for the swarthy Silures, Type A for the supervisors.)

"All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit,
the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts,
in our Gauls, the third. All these differ from each other in language,
customs and laws."--Caesar, Gallic Wars, Book 1.

"Everything you know about British and Irish ancestry is wrong. Our ancestors
were Basques, not Celts. The Celts were not wiped out by the Anglo-Saxons,
in fact neither had much impact on the genetic stock of these islands..."
--Oppenheimer, Myths of British Ancestry, (2006)
Myths of British ancestry

And now you're saying that Britain was the centre of the Celtic world? Even though druids would be found all over the Celtic groups in Europe?

No, I did not. I have offered quotes from several authors who state that the
Druids are non-Celtic, pre-Celtic. I don't know how you got the OPPOSITE idea
from what I quoted... unless you don't read carefully, or don't understand...

Here's where MacBain, in Celtic Mythology and Religion* got his quote from Caesar about the Druids:

"These assemble at a fixed period of the year in a consecrated place in the territories of the Carnutes, which is reckoned the central region of the whole of Gaul. Hither all, who have disputes, assemble from every part, and submit to their decrees and determinations. This institution is supposed to have been devised in Britain, and to have been brought over from it into Gaul; and now those who desire to gain a more accurate knowledge of that system generally proceed thither for the purpose of studying it."
--Julius Caesar, The Gallic Wars, Book 1, Chapter 13

You said that the druids were a pre-Celtic people. They weren't. They were a socio-political caste in Celtic society. To claim they were anything else is ahistorical garbage and idiocy.

You seem to be saying that anyone who doesn't mindlessly follow Wiki's conclusions is an anti-historical idiot.
I thought you denegrated all the hollywood and pop-culture MSM traps?

And why is it still seemingly impossible for you to use any source written in the last 50 years or so?

You mean like Wikipedia, right? ...
Would it surprise you to learn that they often quote ancient authors?
They put their own spin on it... so when I go to Wiki, I find the source material... not follow the wikidogma.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Honestly, Ligurian: I don't see much point in interacting with you anymore.

You said you follow reason and research, and yet I see the most baseless claims from you from sources that have been shown to be outdated and worthless and only fit for use by people who want to reinforces old European ethno-racial hegemonies for no serious reason other than they want to be seen as the special ones. Which gets absolutely asinine when it comes from an American, a group so disconnected to Europe and European identities, especially ancient historical identities, that it becomes nothing less than a joke.

You can't show that there is a Latin 'race' and a Teutonic 'race', because they aren't racial groups. Different ethnicities, yes. Different cultures, yes. But races? No, you can't show a darn thing to prove yourself correct in that.

The claim that the genetic population of Britain is from the Basque was proven untrue in 2015, both from Early European Farmers around 4,000 BC (as shown here) and also from the Third Millennium BC from the Bell Beaker Group (as shown here).

And your attempts on blaming this on mainstream media and Wikipedia just goes to show that you never approached this from a place of good faith. Your espousing historically xenophobic and nationalist rhetoric, from a period in history when every country in Europe wanted to go "No, WE'RE the true Europeans, not your filthy lot!" is honestly just sad.

So honestly, I have zero reason to give a darn about you say or even trust or care in anything you say since all you are redoing is just rehashing centuries old racist claims to justify I don't even know what it is that you even want to justify.

So I'm done with you. This will be my last interaction with you.

 

[Kale100]

To the original post...
The interplay of culture and genetics and to what degree they influence each other would be a fascinating thing to explore, too bad it's such a taboo.

To more recent posts...
The genetic chronology of Britain goes broadly as follows...
- Pre-LGM: Extinct.
- Immediately after the LGM - Magdelanians who emerged from the Franco-Cantabrian refugia.
- Mesolithic (10,000 BC to 4,000 BC), Epigravettians who likely emerged from the Italian ice-age refugia, and picked up ~10% Magdelanian ancestry on their way to the Isles. Cheddar Man is the example everyone knows. Possess 5% or less ancestry from previous British Magdelanians.
- Neolithic (4,000 BC to 2,500 BC), Cardial-Ware associated people, followed coastal route West from Anatolia beginning ~6000BC then slowly crept North inland. Cardial-Ware were responsible for bringing Neolithic to Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, parts of Germany, and the Isles. Many believe this is the origin of Basque, Iberian, paleo-Sardinian languages. British Neolithic possess ~5% ancestry from British Mesolithic.
- Bronze age (2,500 BC to 1,000 BC). In ~3,000 BC 'Corded Ware' people spread from somewhere in or adjacent to the steppe of European Russia or Ukraine, mixing with Neolithic Europeans along the way. These people were the origin of Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Indo-Iranian languages. In or around Northern Germany a subset of them become known as Bell-Beaker culture who pretty much take over Western Europe. The Celtic and Italic languages (and possibly other less well known), are generally considered to have formed somewhere within the BellBeaker world. In ~2,500 BC BellBeakers migrate to the Isles and ~10% of their ancestry is from British Neolithics.
- Late-Bronze Age / Iron Age (1,000 BC to 500 BC), this is when Celtic speakers arrive, there are a whole bunch of theories as to when and from where, but the genetic impact was much less significant than previous migrations, it's hard to pinpoint exactly because the people of the Isles and Northern France, Benelux, and parts of Germany were all so similar. After that was Roman period: minor genetic impact, Anglo-Saxons, moderate impact in some parts, little in others.

 

[Ligurian]

Honestly, Ligurian: I don't see much point in interacting with you anymore.

You said you follow reason and research, and yet I see the most baseless claims from you from sources that have been shown to be outdated and worthless and only fit for use by people who want to reinforces old European ethno-racial hegemonies for no serious reason other than they want to be seen as the special ones. Which gets absolutely asinine when it comes from an American, a group so disconnected to Europe and European identities, especially ancient historical identities, that it becomes nothing less than a joke.

You can't show that there is a Latin 'race' and a Teutonic 'race', because they aren't racial groups. Different ethnicities, yes. Different cultures, yes. But races? No, you can't show a darn thing to prove yourself correct in that.

The claim that the genetic population of Britain is from the Basque was proven untrue in 2015, both from Early European Farmers around 4,000 BC (as shown here) and also from the Third Millennium BC from the Bell Beaker Group (as shown here).

And your attempts on blaming this on mainstream media and Wikipedia just goes to show that you never approached this from a place of good faith. Your espousing historically xenophobic and nationalist rhetoric, from a period in history when every country in Europe wanted to go "No, WE'RE the true Europeans, not your filthy lot!" is honestly just sad.

So honestly, I have zero reason to give a darn about you say or even trust or care in anything you say since all you are redoing is just rehashing centuries old racist claims to justify I don't even know what it is that you even want to justify.

So I'm done with you. This will be my last interaction with you.

Let's hope you actually keep your last sentence. In my experience, that doesn't happen.

That anti-racial nonsense must be some sort of newage collectivism trap...
where "All pigs are equal", but "Some pigs are more equal than others." (Orwell, Animal Farm)

The New Age Encyclopedias say Ethnic doesn't mean Race... They're wrong because...
Etymology: Ethnic, from Ethnos, έθνος :-- nation, people, caste, tribe.

You blamed what you thought I was saying on hollywood and pop-culture... which I call the MSM, and wikipedia by extension.

Your "good faith" thingy:
-------------------

1. The sincere intention to be honest and law-abiding, as when negotiating a contract.
2. Good, honest intentions, even if producing unfortunate results.
3. Having honest intentions.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.
--------------------
Try to approach a discussion without trying to slander/libel your opponent.


From your link:

"Our analyses reveal persistent genetic affinities between Mesolithic British and Western European hunter-gatherers."
Ancient Genomes Indicate Population Replacement in Early Neolithic Britain


Then mine:

Cro-Magnon Hunter-Gatherers:
"Cro-Magnon man, now referred to as European Early Modern Humans, were hunter-gatherers who ate a varied diet containing hunted big game, fruits, nuts, berries, seeds, plants and roots. It is also known that they ate fish, insects and the prey left over from predators."
https://www.reference.com/history-geography/did-cro-magnons-hunt-eat-3ba70eda8c38b15f

Red-Ochre Burials:
Balzi Rossi Cave in Liguria.
Arene Candide Cave in Liguria.
Paviland Cave in Wales.
Red Lady Cave in Spain.


The Bell-Beaker Trade Network:

"The Bell Beaker phenomenon was not an ethnic culture like most other archeological cultures of the period, but rather represents a huge multicultural trade network inside which a variety of new artefacts, customs and ideas were exchanged and diffused, notably metalwork in copper, bronze and gold and archery."

History and genetics of the Bell Beaker phenomenon

Distribution map and analysis of ancient mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal DNA samples from the Bell Beaker network.

www.eupedia.com

In other words, pretty much the same way the so-called Celtic stuff spread.

_______________________
"If something is wrong, it matters not if a thousand men are for it; you must still oppose it."--Terry Goodkind

 

[Ligurian]

To the original post...
The interplay of culture and genetics and to what degree they influence each other would be a fascinating thing to explore, too bad it's such a taboo.

To more recent posts...
The genetic chronology of Britain goes broadly as follows...
- Pre-LGM: Extinct.
- Immediately after the LGM - Magdelanians who emerged from the Franco-Cantabrian refugia.
- Mesolithic (10,000 BC to 4,000 BC), Epigravettians who likely emerged from the Italian ice-age refugia, and picked up ~10% Magdelanian ancestry on their way to the Isles. Cheddar Man is the example everyone knows. Possess 5% or less ancestry from previous British Magdelanians.
- Neolithic (4,000 BC to 2,500 BC), Cardial-Ware associated people, followed coastal route West from Anatolia beginning ~6000BC then slowly crept North inland. Cardial-Ware were responsible for bringing Neolithic to Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, parts of Germany, and the Isles. Many believe this is the origin of Basque, Iberian, paleo-Sardinian languages. British Neolithic possess ~5% ancestry from British Mesolithic.
- Bronze age (2,500 BC to 1,000 BC). In ~3,000 BC 'Corded Ware' people spread from somewhere in or adjacent to the steppe of European Russia or Ukraine, mixing with Neolithic Europeans along the way. These people were the origin of Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Indo-Iranian languages. In or around Northern Germany a subset of them become known as Bell-Beaker culture who pretty much take over Western Europe. The Celtic and Italic languages (and possibly other less well known), are generally considered to have formed somewhere within the BellBeaker world. In ~2,500 BC BellBeakers migrate to the Isles and ~10% of their ancestry is from British Neolithics.
- Late-Bronze Age / Iron Age (1,000 BC to 500 BC), this is when Celtic speakers arrive, there are a whole bunch of theories as to when and from where, but the genetic impact was much less significant than previous migrations, it's hard to pinpoint exactly because the people of the Isles and Northern France, Benelux, and parts of Germany were all so similar. After that was Roman period: minor genetic impact, Anglo-Saxons, moderate impact in some parts, little in others.

It's only a taboo to those who don't want to see the that all people are not the same.

I'm not a big fan of tracing peoples by the souveniers they've picked up on their travels... or by trade-goods.

Celtic-speakers, according to Sims-Williams, were created en suite, they didn't arrive... he makes a pretty good case (free PDF available) for it which matches a lot of what Oppenheimer says, in fact.

Languages were learned by the invaders who didn't bring wives but had children with the indigenous women who taught their children the language of the indigenous. Take for example, the invading Mitanni whose rulers subsequently began to be called by the indigenous-Hurrian names.

People have been taught that the Romans changed the language of the populations they invaded. Hardly anything more absurd can be imagined... by me, anyway. Did what amounted to a handful of Roman soldiers (many of whom weren't even from Rome to begin with) go mud-hut to mud-hut teaching the peasants the Latin language? Seriously?

Or did the Ligurians of the land... all the way up the Loire Valley and spreading out from there... already know the Latin language? Ridgeway would probably think so, since he says the Ligurians were the original Latin speakers. Some say that Ligurian is a mixture of Latin and Celtic. Sims-Williams says Celtic evolved in Gaul near Italy... which is precisely where we find the Ligurians. Whatmough says the Lepontic Inscriptions are in The Ligurian Dialect.

Peet, in his Stone and Bronze Ages, says the Ligurians are to Italy what the Iberians are to Iberia... forgetting that the entire Peninsula of what is now called Spain used to be called Liguria. Meaning that Ligurians are an Iberian tribe, and that Iberia and Italy and much of what we now call France used to all be Ligurian land. So what does Avenius mean that the land past the tin isles were Ligurian land, and that the Celts had taken it from them? The Scilly Isles or the submerged isles in the Biscay Bay at the mouth of the Loire (where a very old chamber exists that's older than the pyramids)? Solinus could have meant either place, without changing the name of the tribes involved.

"These relations between southern Spain and the British is probably the reason why the name of the Silures of Wales coincides with that of the mons Silurus (Avieno, 433), Sierra Nevada. The Iberian type of Silures, which Tacitus noted (Agrecola, 11), is still found in Wales and Ireland."
--Schulten, Tartessos

{Silurus is called by Pliny, Silorius or Solorius.}

"Tacitus states that the Silures, the people who occupied what is now the South Wales Coalfield, had curly hair and a swarthy complexion. He attributed it to their Iberian origin.The name Silures has defied an explanation from Celtic sources as have certain place names in the territory occupied by the Silures, e.g. Ewyas, as in Ewyas Harold and Ewyas Lacy in western Herefordshire. The referencing sixth-century B.C. Phoenician periplus to a 'Mons Silurus' in Spain, pointed out by D'Arbois de Jubainville, is not without interest."
--Watkin, The Welsh Element in the South Wales Coalfield; An Anthropological Study Based on ABO Blood Groups

 

[Kale100]

The Mitanni from what I gather were a small group establishing themselves as an elite over the Hurrians.
Way different than Corded Ware or Bell-Beaker migrations, that was huge folk migration, men and women.
Anyways, you seem to have quite the fascination with Ligurians. Do you consider them Indo-European or non?

 

[Ophiolite]

"The monuments we call Druidical, must be appropriated, exclusively, to the Aborigines of the midland, and western divisions. They are found in such corners, and fastnesses, as have, in all ages, and countries, been the last retreat of the conquered, and the last that are occupied by the victorious."--Davies, Celtic Researches

"Avienus makes only one direct reference to the Celts when he mentions that beyond the tin-producing Oestrymnides was a land now occupied by the Celts, who took it from the Ligurians."--Cunliffe, Ancient Celts.

"Bertrand and Reinach both maintain the pre-Celtic origin of Druidism."
--Wright, Druidism the Ancient Faith of Britain

"so we must pass on to the non-Celtic natives, who had another religion, namely, druidism, which may be surmised to have had its origin among them."--Rhys, Celtic Britain

"Professor Rhys goes so far as to refer Druidism to the Silurian race, because Caesar mentions Britain as the birthplace of that cultus, and it is of a character which he considers non-Aryan. It is almost certain that second-sight and other ecstatic moods must be referred to the pre-Celtic races."
--MacBain, Celtic Mythology and Religion

"Solinus ... states that 'a stormy channel separates the coast which the Damnonii occupy from the island Silura, whose inhabitants preserve the ancient manners, reject money, barter merchandise, value what they require by exchange rather than by price, worship the gods, and both men and women profess a knowledge of the future.'"
--Skene, Celtic Scotland,v1

So, now would you care to answer the question I asked, not the one you decided to answer that existed only in your mind, not my post. Such behviour ican be seen as rude and is certainly non-productive. Here, again, is my question: name two or three ancient monuments that you consider to be the work of the Druids.

 

[Ligurian]

So, now would you care to answer the question I asked, not the one you decided to answer that existed only in your mind, not my post. Such behviour ican be seen as rude and is certainly non-productive. Here, again, is my question: name two or three ancient monuments that you consider to be the work of the Druids.

"The monuments we call Druidical, must be appropriated, exclusively, to the Aborigines"--Davies, Celtic Researches

Celtic researches : Davies, Edward, 1756-1831. [from old catalog] : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

x, lxxiii, 561 p. 24 cm

archive.org

Avebury's stone circles & henge | Wiltshire

A World Heritage Site chosen for its exceptional importance. Walk amongst the stones and an ancient landscape rich in prehistoric monuments in Wiltshire.

www.nationaltrust.org.uk

Logan Rock - Treen

The Logan Rock is a 65 ton block of granite naturally balanced on the cliff tops of Treen near Porthcurno. Before 1824 the stone would rock if pushed, however, that was before Lft Hugh Goldsmith had a go!

www.cornwalls.co.uk

 

[Ophiolite]

You seem unaware of the history of the attribution of ancient monuments in the British Isles to Druids. If you were, then you would know that it was a flawed attribution that carried weight from its inception in the 17th century, or early 18th century*, reaching a peak in the 19th century but thaving been thoroughly debunked by the end of it.

1. Your first citation is a representative of flawed thinking and is certainly not an example of a specific monument you think Druidical.
2. Avebury is not a Druid monument.
3. What evidence do you offer to support your quaint notion that a naturally occuring rock was, in fact, a Druid monument.,

I leave you with this thought from the Rev. Milne at a meeting of the Banffshire Field Club (Milne 1897, 146-7): "The belief that stone circles are Druid temples is so inveterate and unreasonable that it is of no use to argue with one who has taken up this idea"
From MacGregor, G. 1999 The Neolithic and Bronze Ages of Aberdeenshire, Ph.D. thesis

*Boece, in 1527, hints at Druidical involvement in discussing recumbents as altar stones where human sacrifice may have occurred, but the definitive association in made in 1726 by John Toland in his "History of the Druids".

 

[Ligurian]

You seem unaware of the history of the attribution of ancient monuments in the British Isles to Druids. If you were, then you would know that it was a flawed attribution that carried weight from its inception in the 17th century, or early 18th century*, reaching a peak in the 19th century but thaving been thoroughly debunked by the end of it.

1. Your first citation is a representative of flawed thinking and is certainly not an example of a specific monument you think Druidical.
2. Avebury is not a Druid monument.
3. What evidence do you offer to support your quaint notion that a naturally occuring rock was, in fact, a Druid monument.,

I leave you with this thought from the Rev. Milne at a meeting of the Banffshire Field Club (Milne 1897, 146-7): "The belief that stone circles are Druid temples is so inveterate and unreasonable that it is of no use to argue with one who has taken up this idea"
From MacGregor, G. 1999 The Neolithic and Bronze Ages of Aberdeenshire, Ph.D. thesis

*Boece, in 1527, hints at Druidical involvement in discussing recumbents as altar stones where human sacrifice may have occurred, but the definitive association in made in 1726 by John Toland in his "History of the Druids".

I agree with the people I've quoted telling us who were the Druids and what monuments are theirs or I wouldn't be quoting them.

A better question to ask is this: WHEN were the Druids in Britain? ...... Saying the Druids were Celtic is an anachronism, IMO... since the monuments to the stars and to Apollo the sun God existed before the Celts took lands from the Ligurians, and their history along with it... not an unusual happening in the age of conquests. As for your "naturally occurring rock" balanced upon two other rocks... like Stonehenge... well, your idea of natural isn't mine. Rocks standing upright in circles are probably also unnatural phenomenons or the world wouldn't still be in awe of them. I personally don't remember saying that these monuments were Druid temples (re: your MacGregor quote)... it's my understanding that the Druids had forest temples, back in the day. Druids worshiped Apollo, according to Caesar...

Which begs the question: When was Apollo? He certainly isn't Greek... and beyond the North Wind isn't Thrace...

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I agree with the people I've quoted telling us who were the Druids and what monuments are theirs or I wouldn't be quoting them.

A better question to ask is this: WHEN were the Druids in Britain? ...... Saying the Druids were Celtic is an anachronism, IMO... since the monuments to the stars and to Apollo the sun God existed before the Celts took lands from the Ligurians, and their history along with it... not an unusual happening in the age of conquests. As for your "naturally occurring rock" balanced upon two other rocks... like Stonehenge... well, your idea of natural isn't mine. Rocks standing upright in circles are probably also unnatural phenomenons or the world wouldn't still be in awe of them. I personally don't remember saying that these monuments were Druid temples (re: your MacGregor quote)... it's my understanding that the Druids had forest temples, back in the day. Druids worshiped Apollo, according to Caesar...

Which begs the question: When was Apollo? He certainly isn't Greek... and beyond the North Wind isn't Thrace...

Out of nothing else, are you now saying that ancient Britons worshiped the Greek pantheon of gods? Because I really hope that I'm misreading what you're saying here.

 

[Ligurian]

The Mitanni from what I gather were a small group establishing themselves as an elite over the Hurrians.
Way different than Corded Ware or Bell-Beaker migrations, that was huge folk migration, men and women.
Anyways, you seem to have quite the fascination with Ligurians. Do you consider them Indo-European or non?

I don't consider the term Indo-European at all. Unlike the book-writers, I don't need to seek approval to get published. Therefore, I don't have to believe what a gang of scholars have to say. Personally, i would find it incredible to believe that what used to be called Indo-German has anything to do with indigenous peoples in Europe.

 

[Ligurian]

Out of nothing else, are you now saying that ancient Britons worshiped the Greek pantheon of gods? Because I really hope that I'm misreading what you're saying here.

Depends on what version/age of the pantheon you believe to be true. Go read what Caesar said about whom the Druids worshiped... I am only partly convinced... because Mercury for his good fortune wouldn't be a Druidical characteristic if the Silurians described by Solinus is anything to go by. Because I believe that the Silurians were the first Druids, I can see the God of prophecy being the God they really worshiped. And Apollo was never Greek. He is Hyperborean.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Depends on what version/age of the pantheon you believe to be true. Go read what Caesar said about whom the Druids worshiped... I am only partly convinced... because Mercury for his good fortune wouldn't be a Druidical characteristic if the Silurians described by Solinus is anything to go by. Because I believe that the Silurians were the first Druids, I can see the God of prophecy being the God they really worshiped. And Apollo was never Greek. He is Hyperborean.

Yeah, no, I'm not going to unilaterally accept Caesar about whom the druid's worshiped because he really didn't know squat about them. He's a contemporary source, yes, but that is is. The Celts had their own deities wholly separate to the Greco-Roman Gods. It's well attested and studied about who they worshiped in their own pantheons. The Romans calling the Celtic British deities as their own gods was a very clear sign of colonialist expansion and replacement to try and legitimize their invasions of the British Isles and supplant the worship of the native deities with their own to strengthen their power base. Like.. for someone who wants to focus so much on the Welsh, speaking as a Welsh person, you're doing a stunning job of doing everything possible to just be a twit about it.

Hyperborea is and was not a real place. Apollo was a Greek god.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I don't consider the term Indo-European at all. Unlike the book-writers, I don't need to seek approval to get published. Therefore, I don't have to believe what a gang of scholars have to say. Personally, i would find it incredible to believe that what used to be called Indo-German has anything to do with indigenous peoples in Europe.

In that respect, write all your stuff into a book and publish it. Stop peeing and get off the pot, if you think this stuff is actually worth publishing. I'll wait for the reviews to come in though since I'm glad I'm getting this stuff for free on here.

 

[Ligurian]

Yeah, no, I'm not going to unilaterally accept Caesar about whom the druid's worshiped because he really didn't know squat about them. He's a contemporary source, yes, but that is is. The Celts had their own deities wholly separate to the Greco-Roman Gods. It's well attested and studied about who they worshiped in their own pantheons. The Romans calling the Celtic British deities as their own gods was a very clear sign of colonialist expansion and replacement to try and legitimize their invasions of the British Isles and supplant the worship of the native deities with their own to strengthen their power base. Like.. for someone who wants to focus so much on the Welsh, speaking as a Welsh person, you're doing a stunning job of doing everything possible to just be a twit about it.

Hyperborea is and was not a real place. Apollo was a Greek god.

The Romans burned the Druids... they didn't copy them, nor could they. As for Celtic gods, which ethnic group had which gods and why? Lugh was of the Tuatha de Dannan, and the last taking of Ireland kept him... but whose God was he, in the beginning? Back in the day, all Nations had their own Gods and didn't need to borrow from the nations they conquered. Conquest by religion is a relatively new phase.

It's also best to remember that nations translated the names of the Gods they appropriated... so what's Lugh in one nation may be Apollo in another, since they were both Sun Gods... And Odin shares some characteristics with these two. The changing of names is a language thing.* Who knows how often it happens. (shrug)

I sincerely hope you don't dismiss ALL of the ancient historians when you're deciding what to believe.

Diodorus of Sicily

On the Scythians, Amazons, and Hyperboreans

[Hyperboreans]

"47 (1) Now for our part, since we have thought it was appropriate to make mention of the regions of Asia which lie to the north, we feel that it will not be foreign to our purpose to discuss the legendary accounts of the Hyperboreans. Among those who have written about the ancient myths, Hekataios and certain others say that, in the regions beyond the land of the Celts,** there lies in the ocean an island no smaller than Sicily. This island, the account continues, is situated in the north and is inhabited by the Hyperboreans. They are labelled with this designation because their home is beyond the point from where the north wind (Boreas) blows. The island is both fertile and productive of all kinds of crops, and since it has an unusually temperate climate it produces two harvests each year.

(2) Moreover, the following legend is told concerning it: Leto was born on this island, and for that reason Apollo is honoured among them above all other gods. In a way, the inhabitants are looked upon as priests of Apollo since they praise this god daily and continuously in song and honour him exceedingly. There is also on the island both a magnificent sacred precinct of Apollo and a notable temple which is adorned with many votive offerings and is spherical in shape. (3) Furthermore, a city is there which is sacred to this god, and the majority of its inhabitants are performers on the cithara. These performers continually play on this instrument in the temple and sing hymns of praise to the god, glorifying his deeds.

(4) We are informed that the Hyperboreans also have a language which is peculiar to them. They are most friendly disposed towards the Greeks, and especially towards the Athenians and the Delians, who have inherited this good-will from most ancient times. The myth also relates that certain Greeks visited the Hyperboreans and left behind them there costly votive offerings bearing inscriptions in Greek letters. (5) In the same way Abaris, a Hyperborean, came to Greece in ancient times and renewed the good-will and kinship of his people to the Delians.

They also say that the moon, as viewed from this island, appears to be only a short distance from the earth and to have upon it prominent features, like those of the earth, which are visible to the eye. (6) The account is also given that the god visits the island every nineteen years, the period in which the return of the stars to the same place in the heavens is accomplished. For this reason, the nineteen-year period is called by the Greeks the “year of Meton.” At the time of this appearance of the god, he both plays on the cithara and dances continuously the night through from the vernal equinox until the rising of the Pleiades, expressing in this manner his delight in his successes. The kings of this city and the supervisors of the sacred precinct are called “Boreadians” (Boreadai), since they are descendants of Boreas, and the succession to these positions is always kept in their family."

I personally like Diodorus. And dislike Herodotus.

Cicero said in Cicero de Nat. Deor. L. iii., that there were 3 Apollos and the 3rd lived in Hyperborea.

"The third (Apollo) is the son of the third Jupiter and of Latona, and is reputed to have come to Delphi from the Hyperboreans."
"The second (Artemis) is more celebrated; tradition makes her the daughter of the third Jupiter and of Latona."

__________________________________
* Latona and Leto: same person, different nation. Artemis and Diana, ditto. (Apollo only has one name.)

** Whatever else may be said about the Hyperboreans, they can't be beyond the land of the Celts AND be Celts, too.

There are always two sides to a story. Haven't really heard the story 'till you've heard both sides.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

The Romans burned the Druids... they didn't copy them, nor could they. As for Celtic gods, which ethnic group had which gods and why? Lugh was of the Tuatha de Dannan, and the last taking of Ireland kept him... but whose God was he, in the beginning? Back in the day, all Nations had their own Gods and didn't need to borrow from the nations they conquered. Conquest by religion is a relatively new phase.

It's also best to remember that nations translated the names of the Gods they appropriated... so what's Lugh in one nation may be Apollo in another, since they were both Sun Gods... And Odin shares some characteristics with these two. The changing of names is a language thing.* Who knows how often it happens. (shrug)

I sincerely hope you don't dismiss ALL of the ancient historians when you're deciding what to believe.

Diodorus of Sicily

On the Scythians, Amazons, and Hyperboreans

[Hyperboreans]

"47 (1) Now for our part, since we have thought it was appropriate to make mention of the regions of Asia which lie to the north, we feel that it will not be foreign to our purpose to discuss the legendary accounts of the Hyperboreans. Among those who have written about the ancient myths, Hekataios and certain others say that, in the regions beyond the land of the Celts,** there lies in the ocean an island no smaller than Sicily. This island, the account continues, is situated in the north and is inhabited by the Hyperboreans. They are labelled with this designation because their home is beyond the point from where the north wind (Boreas) blows. The island is both fertile and productive of all kinds of crops, and since it has an unusually temperate climate it produces two harvests each year.

(2) Moreover, the following legend is told concerning it: Leto was born on this island, and for that reason Apollo is honoured among them above all other gods. In a way, the inhabitants are looked upon as priests of Apollo since they praise this god daily and continuously in song and honour him exceedingly. There is also on the island both a magnificent sacred precinct of Apollo and a notable temple which is adorned with many votive offerings and is spherical in shape. (3) Furthermore, a city is there which is sacred to this god, and the majority of its inhabitants are performers on the cithara. These performers continually play on this instrument in the temple and sing hymns of praise to the god, glorifying his deeds.

(4) We are informed that the Hyperboreans also have a language which is peculiar to them. They are most friendly disposed towards the Greeks, and especially towards the Athenians and the Delians, who have inherited this good-will from most ancient times. The myth also relates that certain Greeks visited the Hyperboreans and left behind them there costly votive offerings bearing inscriptions in Greek letters. (5) In the same way Abaris, a Hyperborean, came to Greece in ancient times and renewed the good-will and kinship of his people to the Delians.

They also say that the moon, as viewed from this island, appears to be only a short distance from the earth and to have upon it prominent features, like those of the earth, which are visible to the eye. (6) The account is also given that the god visits the island every nineteen years, the period in which the return of the stars to the same place in the heavens is accomplished. For this reason, the nineteen-year period is called by the Greeks the “year of Meton.” At the time of this appearance of the god, he both plays on the cithara and dances continuously the night through from the vernal equinox until the rising of the Pleiades, expressing in this manner his delight in his successes. The kings of this city and the supervisors of the sacred precinct are called “Boreadians” (Boreadai), since they are descendants of Boreas, and the succession to these positions is always kept in their family."

I personally like Diodorus. And dislike Herodotus.

Cicero said in Cicero de Nat. Deor. L. iii., that there were 3 Apollos and the 3rd lived in Hyperborea.

"The third (Apollo) is the son of the third Jupiter and of Latona, and is reputed to have come to Delphi from the Hyperboreans."
"The second (Artemis) is more celebrated; tradition makes her the daughter of the third Jupiter and of Latona."

__________________________________
* Latona and Leto: same person, different nation. Artemis and Diana, ditto. (Apollo only has one name.)

** Whatever else may be said about the Hyperboreans, they can't be beyond the land of the Celts AND be Celts, too.

There are always two sides to a story. Haven't really heard the story 'till you've heard both sides.

Even after two years and you're still struggling to avoid making up quotes from me: I never said that the Romans copied the Celtic Britons, I said that they replaced the Briton's gods with their own gods. And even if interpetatio romana is a thing, just because things are similar does not mean that they are the same. The various Celtic deities were VERY different to the Greco-Roman deities.

Secondly.... good Lord where do I begin... just because someone writes about something doesn't mean it's factual. I don't care if you like Diodorus and dislike Herodotus and don't really care either or about Cicero, there is no place called Hyperborea. No-one has ever found it, no ancient writer could agree on what and where it could be outside of being cold and bathed in perpetual sun, and no modern day scholar has ever found concrete evidence of it existing. It's a myth, hence why it's called in Greek writings the home of the Gods.

Unless you can actually provide concrete evidence of it existing, I have no reason to take anything you say as correct or factual..