Question for Amillennialists

[TribulationSigns]

Of course. But, that is not the context of the Olivet Discourse.

Just as I thought. Sounds like you are not a fan of comparing Scripture with Scripture as you seem to determine to interpret the verse itself instead of comparing this with the rest of Scripture. Figures.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That I don’t overlook 1 Peter 5:9.

Why would 1 Peter 5:9 not apply to the camp of saints upon Satan going out, deceiving the “ends of the earth” and battling against the them?

I don't know what you're talking about there. So, I can't answer that question without knowing what you mean by it. Why would it not apply to Satan being bound since he is bound from devouring anyone who resists him? Was that the case in Old Testament times? I don't believe so. I believe he must flee if we resist him because of the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us which is something that has been the case only for NT saints.

It’s a symbolic vision. It’s ironic to call one interpretation ridiculous while also symbolically interpreting the Vision.

I disagree. We're talking about the word "thousand" being interpreted symbolically. I would assume that you are aware that the word "thousand" is used figuratively in other verses as well? Such as those that refer to "a thousand generations" and the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50:10)? Is the word used to represent a small number in those cases? No, it's used to refer to an undefined, large number. Why would that not be the case for the thousand years as well?

Point to any gospel or epistolic passage that specifically states Satan will be released from the abyss after a long period of time , and then we can talk seriously about your interpretation of the symbolic passage.

LOL. If we can only back up our views on this by providing explicit scripture to back them up, then neither one of us can back up our views. But, I have provided scripture that I believe relates to Satan's binding. You disagree that those relate to his binding. So be it. Agree to disagree then.

In regards to Satans “power”, I’ve not gone beyond what the epistles give us about what he can do.

1.) Satan deceiving as angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14)

2.) Satan being the prince of the power of the air, working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2).

3.) satan hindering the spread of the gospel (1 Thessalonians 2:18)

4.) Satan having authority in Asia Minor to kill the saints and throw them in jail (revelation 2:10,13)

5.) Satan leading those astray (1 Timothy 5:15).

6.) Satan prowling and looking to devour (1 Peter 5:8).

Let me just ask you this then. What do you believe Satan has been able to do in NT times that he wasn't able to do, or at least wasn't able to do to the same extent, in OT times?

In regards to “death”, I don’t know what your position is, but mine is that satans “power over death” is related to law. Satan’s power to accuse the saints and bring charges of death came from the law. But when Christ died, his righteousness was imputed to us, thus Satan no longer had the power of death to hold against the saints.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Hebrews 2:14 so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil

Revelation 12:10-11
the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—he who accuses them day and night before our God.
11They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.

Let's look at the entire passage again.

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

From what you're saying here, it appears that you believe the ones who had previously been "held in slavery by their fear of death" were saints? Why would saints have been afraid of death? Aren't unbelievers who have no hope for the future the ones who fear death? I believe so. So, to me, what this is saying is that Christ's death (and resurrection) made the way for people who previously were in slavery to their fear of death and who had no hope for eternal life (unbelievers) to have the opportunity to be set free and have the hope of eternal life. In my view, Satan had to be bound in order for the spiritual darkness and slavery that he had caused to be removed so that the light of the gospel could shine where it had not shined before in the world.

Now, while the way had to be made for the light to shine through, it is still up to each person to decide whether or not to embrace it. And not everyone does. But, Satan's binding isn't about ensuring everyone's salvation and ensuring that people don't need to deal with deception. It's about giving people in the world the opportunity to be set free which, for the most part, they didn't have in Old Testament times.

Your misunderstanding seems to think Im conflating satans war on the church with his power over death. Such is by no means true.

No, I never said or even thought such a thing, so I'm not sure where this is coming from.

my view is that revelation 20 is simply a symbolic story containing elements of the gospel truths: Christ was victorious, Satan would persecute the church, but ultimately, the church is vindicated by God, sharing in Christs inheritance as a kingdom of priests to never face the 2nd death.

But, to me, your view doesn't make any sense out of the thousand years. It talks about Christ reigning for a thousand years while Satan is bound and it talks about the thousand years as being an actual time period with a beginning and ending (as verses 3 and 7 show). Your view does not acknowledge that.

As far as Satan:

Satan was bound at the first resurrection (Jesus’ resurrection), right?

Yep. And he was to be bound for a certain amount of time after that, which is described as "a thousand years". It seems that in your view he wasn't actually bound for any time at all or a very short time. I'm not sure which. When exactly do you believe Satan was loosed?

Satan was prowling looking to devour, working through the sons of disobedience, deceiving as angel of light, leading many astray, killing the saints, and throwing them in prison, FOLLOWING the first resurrection (Christs resurrection), right?

Yep. But, again, I don't believe that his binding has anything to do with incapacitating Satan but rather with restraining him and with keeping him from preventing the light of the gospel from shining in the world. You seem to think like a Premil in some ways, incuding your understanding of Satan's activities.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Just as I thought. Sounds like you are not a fan of comparing Scripture with Scripture

If this is the kind of thing you're going to say to me even though I believe very strongly in using scripture to interpret scripture (why else do you think I'm an Amil? I use other scripture to interpret Revelation 20, unlike Premils), then we're done. So, tell me. Is it your intention to keep saying things like this to me? If so, then stop talking to me.

 

[TribulationSigns]

If this is the kind of thing you're going to say to me even though I believe very strongly in using scripture to interpret scripture (why else do you think I'm an Amil? I use other scripture to interpret Revelation 20, unlike Premils), then we're done. So, tell me. Is it your intention to keep saying things like this to me? If so, then stop talking to me.

If you are strongly in using Scripture to interpret Scripture, then I take that you are not a fan of comparing Matthew 24:1-2 and 24:25-33 with the rest of Scripture, then?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If you are strongly in using Scripture to interpret Scripture,

Not "if". I am strongly into that. It's not up to you to decide if I am or not. You've read a lot of my other posts in other threads, right? I've seen you sometimes give a like to my posts. Do you really think that I'm not strongly into using scripture to interpret scripture? How else do you think I came to believe the things that you agree with me on?

How do you think I became an Amil? By accident? No, I compare Revelation 20 to other scripture to determine its timing. Other scripture indicates that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection so I take that into account when interpreting Revelation 20. Other scripture, like John 5:28-29, indicates that the saved and the lost dead will be resurrected on the same day, so I take that into account when interpreting Revelation 20. Other scripture indicates that all people will be judged at the same time, so I take that into account when interpreting Revelation 20. And so on. So, there's no need for you to question whether or not I'm strongly into using scripture to interpret scripture.

then I take that you are not a fan of comparing Matthew 24:1-2 and 24:25-33 with the rest of Scripture, then?

I take it that you are prone to making baseless assumptions? I compare Matthew 24:1-2 and Matthew 24:15-22 (Mark 13:14-20/Luke 21:20-24) to Daniel 9:26-27 and believe they are speaking of the destruction of the same city and sanctuary.

As for Matthew 24:25-33, what is your point there? What scripture do you think I'm not comparing that to that I should be comparing it to exactly?

 

[Truth7t7]

None.
How about you?

None

 

[Truth7t7]

Ever the optomist... I'll go ahead an honor your request that I comment on your post #27 below, as it exemplifies my question in posts 88 & 92


In the context of "general evil in the world today", do the elect have any power over Satan presently?

James 4:7KJV
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

 

[parousia70]

None

Terrific. How is his binding not complete then? Are not the elect the only ones who EVER get to share in Christ’s victory over him?

Unless your position is that at some point in our future, even the unrepentant will get to enjoy a share of Christ’s victory over Satan?

It seems to me that’s what you’re saying with this idea that in the future he will be further bound in a way that prevents him from influencing even the unrepentant.

Do I have that right?

 

[Truth7t7]

Terrific. How is his binding not complete then? Are not the elect the only ones who EVER get to share in Christ’s victory over him?

Unless your position is that at some point in our future, even the unrepentant will get to enjoy a share of Christ’s victory over Satan?

It seems to me that’s what you’re saying with this idea that in the future he will be further bound in a way that prevents him from influencing even the unrepentant.

Do I have that right?

 

[Truth7t7]

It seems to me that’s what you’re saying with this idea that in the future he will be further bound in a way that prevents him from influencing even the unrepentant.

Do I have that right?

Satan's binding in Revelation 20:1-3 is specific to him deceiving the nation's to battle, just as scripture teaches below, plain and simple before your eyes

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[claninja]

I don't know what you're talking about there. So, I can't answer that question without knowing what you mean by it. Why would it not apply to Satan being bound since he is bound from devouring anyone who resists him? Was that the case in Old Testament times? I don't believe so. I believe he must flee if we resist him because of the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us which is something that has been the case only for NT saints.

what part specifically don’t you understand about my position on the camp of saints, in revelation 20, being able to resist Satan?

It seems pretty straight forward that the saints, whom satan wars against, are able to resist him, ultimately leading to their vindication…..not sure what’s so difficult about that.

Is it your position that peters exhortation to his audience in 1 Peter 5:9 ,to resist the devil, is completely irrelevant to the saints to whom Satan wars against in revelation 20?

I disagree. We're talking about the word "thousand" being interpreted symbolically. I would assume that you are aware that the word "thousand" is used figuratively in other verses as well? Such as those that refer to "a thousand generations" and the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50:10)? Is the word used to represent a small number in those cases? No, it's used to refer to an undefined, large number. Why would that not be the case for the thousand years as well?

Sure, and I could just use the ole “a thousand years is as a day” to claim the millennium is actually short…….”in God’s time”….

there is no teaching in the NT that mentions Satan being in the abyss for 1,000 years (or a long time). Quite the opposite actually: Satan was deceiving as angel of light, Satan was hindering the gospel, Satan was prowling like a lion, Satan was killing saints and throwing them in prison, Satan was working through the sons of disobedience, and Satan was leading many astray…..BUT Satan would soon be crushed (Romans 16:20).

LOL. If we can only back up our views on this by providing explicit scripture to back them up, then neither one of us can back up our views. But, I have provided scripture that I believe relates to Satan's binding. You disagree that those relate to his binding. So be it. Agree to disagree then.

Right, it’s revelation, a highly symbolic and apocalyptic book. So why would I base my understanding, of satans position as being presently in the abyss but to be released in the future as amil does, ON REVELATION instead of the the gospels and epistles which are completely silent on this?

Let me just ask you this then. What do you believe Satan has been able to do in NT times that he wasn't able to do, or at least wasn't able to do to the same extent, in OT times?

Persecute followers of Jesus Christ.

Let's look at the entire passage again.

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

From what you're saying here, it appears that you believe the ones who had previously been "held in slavery by their fear of death" were saints? Why would saints have been afraid of death? Aren't unbelievers who have no hope for the future the ones who fear death? I believe so. So, to me, what this is saying is that Christ's death (and resurrection) made the way for people who previously were in slavery to their fear of death and who had no hope for eternal life (unbelievers) to have the opportunity to be set free and have the hope of eternal life. In my view, Satan had to be bound in order for the spiritual darkness and slavery that he had caused to be removed so that the light of the gospel could shine where it had not shined before in the world.

Now, while the way had to be made for the light to shine through, it is still up to each person to decide whether or not to embrace it. And not everyone does. But, Satan's binding isn't about ensuring everyone's salvation and ensuring that people don't need to deal with deception. It's about giving people in the world the opportunity to be set free which, for the most part, they didn't have in Old Testament times.

The book of Hebrews or “the epistle to the Hebrews” is exactly that: a book written to Jews. Therefore, it should be understood with a first century Hebrew context.

though while possible, I’m not so sure that this should be understood In a general sense, but instead to the Hebrews who were under the ministry of death, as the epistle to the Hebrews dives into old covenant laws and ceremonies from which they were made free through Christ.

What do the gospels and epistles state Satan was bound from doing?

But, to me, your view doesn't make any sense out of the thousand years. It talks about Christ reigning for a thousand years while Satan is bound and it talks about the thousand years as being an actual time period with a beginning and ending (as verses 3 and 7 show). Your view does not acknowledge that.

Right, my view doesn’t really try to make sense out of the 1,000 years because the gospels and epistles don’t. There is no mention, in the gospels nor epistles, of Satan being in the abyss for a long period of time only to be released later and wreak havoc.

Yep. And he was to be bound for a certain amount of time after that, which is described as "a thousand years". It seems that in your view he wasn't actually bound for any time at all or a very short time. I'm not sure which. When exactly do you believe Satan was loosed?

Neither the gospels nor epistles make any mention of Satan being bound for a long period of time and then loosed.

The gospels/epistles mention the strong man being bound so that his house could be plundered, and satans works being destroyed.

The gospels/epistles also mention satan was coming, Satan was deceiving as angel of light, Satan was hindering the gospel, Satan was prowling like a lion, satan was blinding the minds of unbelievers, Satan was killing saints and throwing them in prison, Satan was working through the sons of disobedience, and Satan was leading many astray.

Yep. But, again, I don't believe that his binding has anything to do with incapacitating Satan but rather with restraining him and with keeping him from preventing the light of the gospel from shining in the world. You seem to think like a Premil in some ways, incuding your understanding of Satan's activities.

Well, technically revelation states he is bound from deceiving the nations into battling the camp of the saints.

Is it your opinion that Satan was not able to deceive nations into persecuting the church in the first century?

 

[Truth7t7]

what part specifically don’t you understand about my position on the camp of saints, in revelation 20, being able to resist Satan?

(The Saints) are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11, and their camp is (Jerusalem) where the beast kills them and they lay dead in a Jerusalem street

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

what part specifically don’t you understand about my position on the camp of saints, in revelation 20, being able to resist Satan?

Obviously, I understand what it means to resist Satan. What I don't understand is why you wouldn't relate that to his binding.

It seems pretty straight forward that the saints, whom satan wars against, are able to resist him, ultimately leading to their vindication…..not sure what’s so difficult about that.

There's nothing difficult about that at all. But, I don't see his binding as him being bound from warring against the saints. It doesn't say that is what he is bound from doing.

Is it your position that peters exhortation to his audience in 1 Peter 5:9 ,to resist the devil, is completely irrelevant to the saints to whom Satan wars against in revelation 20?

It's my position that, generally speaking, in Old Testament times people were not able to resist him because they didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Being able to resist him is something that has been possible in New Testament times because Satan was bound and believers have authority over him because of the presence of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

Sure, and I could just use the ole “a thousand years is as a day” to claim the millennium is actually short…….”in God’s time”….

No, you could not. The "thousands years is as a day" thing means that one day and a thousand years are no different to God because He created time and exists outside of time. It has nothing to do with a thousand years being a short period of time to God. It's actually no time at all to Him because He is not confined within the realm of time that He created.

there is no teaching in the NT that mentions Satan being in the abyss for 1,000 years (or a long time).

Not explicitly, but if that was required there would be a lot of things that are written in Revelation 20 that we couldn't explain with explicit NT scripture. But, there is NT scripture which talks about the power of death being taken away from Satan (Heb 2:14-15), His works being destroyed (1 John 3:8), people being led from the power of Satan to the power of God (Acts 26:15-18), and about Satan's power being restrained (2 Thess 2:1-12). I believe those scriptures relate to the binding of Satan. For some reason you require other scripture which explicitly talks about Satan being in the abyss for 1,000 years or a long time. I don't think that is reasonable.

Quite the opposite actually: Satan was deceiving as angel of light, Satan was hindering the gospel, Satan was prowling like a lion, Satan was killing saints and throwing them in prison, Satan was working through the sons of disobedience, and Satan was leading many astray…..BUT Satan would soon be crushed (Romans 16:20).

His binding isn't about him being completely incapacitated. You are thinking like a Premil here. It's about him being restrained and about him not being able to stop the gospel from being spread throughout the world. You talk about him hindering the gospel. What does that mean? Did he keep the gospel from being spread throughout the world? No, he did not. Of course he tried and made it difficult at times but he couldn't stop that from happening.

Right, it’s revelation, a highly symbolic and apocalyptic book. So why would I base my understanding, of satans position as being presently in the abyss but to be released in the future as amil does, ON REVELATION instead of the the gospels and epistles which are completely silent on this?

Are you purposely misrepresenting Amil here or are you just ignorant about what we believe? Our understanding is not based on Revelation, it is based on scriptures that I have told you about repeatedly such as Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8, Acts 26:15-18 and 2 Thess 2:1-12. You think the gospels and epistles are silent on this, but Amils disagree with that. So, you can't claim that Amils base our view only on Revelation just because YOU can't see his binding referenced anywhere else. That is ridiculous.

Persecute followers of Jesus Christ.

Well, he persecuted God's people in OT times. So, this is it? Other than this you think Satan has been able to do things in NT times to exactly the same extent as he was in OT times? How can that be? What do you think passages like the following mean then?

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Acts 26:15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ “ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

The book of Hebrews or “the epistle to the Hebrews” is exactly that: a book written to Jews. Therefore, it should be understood with a first century Hebrew context.

Sure, but it talks a lot about the new covenant. I'm sure you understand that Gentiles are also under the new covenant and not just Jews.

though while possible, I’m not so sure that this should be understood In a general sense, but instead to the Hebrews who were under the ministry of death, as the epistle to the Hebrews dives into old covenant laws and ceremonies from which they were made free through Christ.

I disagree. Gentiles were delivered from the fear of death under the new covenant every bit as much as the Jews were.

What do the gospels and epistles state Satan was bound from doing?

I just quoted these passages a little earlier.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

He was bound from doing his work in the way he was used to doing in Old Testament times. He did not have to deal with the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit in Old Testament times.

Acts 26:15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ “ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

He was bound from continuing to keep the Gentiles in spiritual darkness the way he was able to do in Old Testament times. That's why Jesus commissioned Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles and sent him "to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God".

I don't know how you can act as if Satan's activities had no change from OT to NT times in light of scriptures like these. Multitudes of Gentiles have been saved during NT times and been turned "from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God". How about during OT times? Not so much, right?

Right, my view doesn’t really try to make sense out of the 1,000 years because the gospels and epistles don’t.

Except that they do. That's the difference in our views.

There is no mention, in the gospels nor epistles, of Satan being in the abyss for a long period of time only to be released later and wreak havoc.

Not specifically, but do you require this type of explicit detail to prove that Jesus has been reigning for a long time already (since His resurrection)? Yet, that is what we both believe Revelation 20 is talking about in relation to Him reigning, right?

The gospels/epistles mention the strong man being bound so that his house could be plundered, and satans works being destroyed.

Yes, and what do you think that means?

The gospels/epistles also mention satan was coming, Satan was deceiving as angel of light, Satan was hindering the gospel, Satan was prowling like a lion, satan was blinding the minds of unbelievers, Satan was killing saints and throwing them in prison, Satan was working through the sons of disobedience, and Satan was leading many astray.

You focus on what Satan is able to do and say nothing about what he is not able to do anymore the way he was in OT times. I don't get that. That is exactly how Premils think.

Well, technically revelation states he is bound from deceiving the nations into battling the camp of the saints.

Is it your opinion that Satan was not able to deceive nations into persecuting the church in the first century?

Is that a serious question? It shouldn't be. I've read the New Testament, so I'm well aware that the church was persecuted in the first century. The church was persecuted from the beginning, so if Satan was bound from persecuting the church then that means he was never actually bound at all. Think about that. Do you think he was bound at all for any period of time? If so, during what time period exactly?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

(The Saints) are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11, and their camp is (Jerusalem) where the beast kills them and they lay dead in a Jerusalem street

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So, your view is that people from around the world travel to Jerusalem to surround 2 individuals?

Also, where does Revelation 20:9 say that the saints in the camp of the saints are killed? I only see a description of the ones who oppose them being killed.

 

[Truth7t7]

It doesn't say that is what he is bound from doing.

The scripture in Revelation 20:1-8 speaks directly that Satan's binding is from "deceiving the nation's to battle" as you have been clearly shown several times to your complete disregard

 

[Truth7t7]

So, your view is that people from around the world travel to Jerusalem to surround 2 individuals?

Also, where does Revelation 20:9 say that the saints in the camp of the saints are killed? I only see a description of the ones who oppose them being killed

You don't believe (The Beast) or (Two Witnesses) will be literal future physical figures, so we have a pre-determined bias before starting

Fact is (The Saints) are the (Two Witnesses) that the beast will overcome and kill, and their camp is Jerusalem where their dead bodies will lay in a Jerusalem street for 3.5 days

These (Two Witnesses) will bring literal plagues upon this literal world in torment of the unsaved wicked, a complete replay of Moses against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the entire world will be drawn to Israel/Jerusalem to kill God's (Two Witnesses) and the Lord returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[DavidPT]

Also, where does Revelation 20:9 say that the saints in the camp of the saints are killed? I only see a description of the ones who oppose them being killed.

Shouldn't that prove to you, if concluding that, that satan's little season can't be meaning before Christ returns? What is it that precedes the 2nd coming? Is it not the 42 month reign of the beast? Wouldn't the logic be this then? Assuming satan's little season precedes the 2nd coming, this would indicate that satan's little season and the 42 month reign of the beast, these are one and the same since it would be ludicrous that if satan's little season precedes the 2nd coming, and so does the 42 month reign of the beast, that these are not one and the same. At least meaning that they both take place during the same era of time, making them one and the same in the regards if nothing else.

And what is one thing that Revelation 13 undeniably shows takes place during the beast's 42 month reign? Is it not the persecution and martyring of saints?

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Obviously, it is during the 42 months when they are killed because of these things. Per your view then, would anyone in the camp of the saints after the thousand years be including anyone that is killed in regards to what verse 15 is involving? If yes, how can you then conclude no saints are killed during satan's little season? If no, how can you then have the 42 month reign of the beast meaning after the thousand years when it would be ignoring the fact that Revelation 13:15 indicates saints are being killed during the 42 month reign of the beast?

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


We can't divorce verse 15 from verse 5 and then pretend that verse 15 is not even involving the time period verse 5 is. Of course it's involving the same time period verse 5 is involving.

In order for both the beast and fp to be cast into the LOF when Christ returns, this indicates that both are active in the earth prior to the 2nd coming, which means that the beast would be out of the pit when the 2nd coming occurs. And until the beast is out of the pit, and a 2nd one rises out of the earth, no way is Revelation 13:15 taking place in the meantime nor is verse 5.

Which is it then? Saints are being killed during satan's little season, or they are not being killed during satan's little season, if we factor in Revelation 13? That's not even taking into account how Amils can insist that the 42 month reign of the beast is after the thousand years when Revelation 20:4 is already proving it isn't.

Are Amils going to propose something preposterous? That while both satan and the beast, per their view, are in the pit during the thousand years, this same 42 month reign in question, it is meaning during the thousand years?

Factor this in though, that Revelation 20:4 does not agree that the 42 month reign is after the thousand years, it doesn't matter whether some Amils think saints are killed during satan's little season, and that some Amils don't think this is the case, Amil is never going to work with Revelation 20 no matter what, to begin with.

 

[claninja]

Obviously, I understand what it means to resist Satan. What I don't understand is why you wouldn't relate that to his binding.


There's nothing difficult about that at all. But, I don't see his binding as him being bound from warring against the saints. It doesn't say that is what he is bound from doing.


It's my position that, generally speaking, in Old Testament times people were not able to resist him because they didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Being able to resist him is something that has been possible in New Testament times because Satan was bound and believers have authority over him because of the presence of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.


No, you could not. The "thousands years is as a day" thing means that one day and a thousand years are no different to God because He created time and exists outside of time. It has nothing to do with a thousand years being a short period of time to God. It's actually no time at all to Him because He is not confined within the realm of time that He created.


Not explicitly, but if that was required there would be a lot of things that are written in Revelation 20 that we couldn't explain with explicit NT scripture. But, there is NT scripture which talks about the power of death being taken away from Satan (Heb 2:14-15), His works being destroyed (1 John 3:8), people being led from the power of Satan to the power of God (Acts 26:15-18), and about Satan's power being restrained (2 Thess 2:1-12). I believe those scriptures relate to the binding of Satan. For some reason you require other scripture which explicitly talks about Satan being in the abyss for 1,000 years or a long time. I don't think that is reasonable.


His binding isn't about him being completely incapacitated. You are thinking like a Premil here. It's about him being restrained and about him not being able to stop the gospel from being spread throughout the world. You talk about him hindering the gospel. What does that mean? Did he keep the gospel from being spread throughout the world? No, he did not. Of course he tried and made it difficult at times but he couldn't stop that from happening.


Are you purposely misrepresenting Amil here or are you just ignorant about what we believe? Our understanding is not based on Revelation, it is based on scriptures that I have told you about repeatedly such as Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8, Acts 26:15-18 and 2 Thess 2:1-12. You think the gospels and epistles are silent on this, but Amils disagree with that. So, you can't claim that Amils base our view only on Revelation just because YOU can't see his binding referenced anywhere else. That is ridiculous.


Well, he persecuted God's people in OT times. So, this is it? Other than this you think Satan has been able to do things in NT times to exactly the same extent as he was in OT times? How can that be? What do you think passages like the following mean then?

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Acts 26:15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ “ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’


Sure, but it talks a lot about the new covenant. I'm sure you understand that Gentiles are also under the new covenant and not just Jews.


I disagree. Gentiles were delivered from the fear of death under the new covenant every bit as much as the Jews were.


I just quoted these passages a little earlier.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

He was bound from doing his work in the way he was used to doing in Old Testament times. He did not have to deal with the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit in Old Testament times.

Acts 26:15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ “ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

He was bound from continuing to keep the Gentiles in spiritual darkness the way he was able to do in Old Testament times. That's why Jesus commissioned Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles and sent him "to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God".

I don't know how you can act as if Satan's activities had no change from OT to NT times in light of scriptures like these. Multitudes of Gentiles have been saved during NT times and been turned "from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God". How about during OT times? Not so much, right?


Except that they do. That's the difference in our views.


Not specifically, but do you require this type of explicit detail to prove that Jesus has been reigning for a long time already (since His resurrection)? Yet, that is what we both believe Revelation 20 is talking about in relation to Him reigning, right?


Yes, and what do you think that means?


You focus on what Satan is able to do and say nothing about what he is not able to do anymore the way he was in OT times. I don't get that. That is exactly how Premils think.


Is that a serious question? It shouldn't be. I've read the New Testament, so I'm well aware that the church was persecuted in the first century. The church was persecuted from the beginning, so if Satan was bound from persecuting the church then that means he was never actually bound at all. Think about that. Do you think he was bound at all for any period of time? If so, during what time period exactly?

I agree that the strong man was bound so his house could be plundered (Matthew 12, acts 26), and that Satan’s works were destroyed (1 John 3), and that Satan no longer has the power over death (Hebrews 2). Although, 2 Thessalonians 2 makes no mention of Satan being bound in abyss, so not sure what you are talking about there . BUT these are completely irrelevant to my argument.

Revelation literally states that when Satan is loosed, he deceives the nations TO GATHER THEM FOR BATTLE (revelation 20:7-9). so if you provide any gospel or epistolic evidence that Satan is now bound from warring against the church, that would greatly help the “traditional” amil side.

The idea that Satan is bound in the abyss for a “thousand years” from deceiving the nations from warring against the the church until some to future time when he is released is found nowhere in the gospels, epistles, nor book of acts. Therefore, I simply take revelation 20 to be a metaphorical and apocalyptic story that contains the gospel truths: Christs resurrection and victory, the realized promise to the saints, and the persecution of the church by Satan which is ultimately vindicated by God. I don’t believe there is any literal thousand 1,000 years or literal long period where Satan is bound from warring against the nations because this idea is not found in the gospels and epistles.

so back to Peter, no, I have not ignored 1 Peter 5:9. It does not say “Satan is now bound, so you can now resist him.” Instead it says “Satan is prowling and looking to devour. Resist him.” So, while I believe peters exhortation is completely applicable to the saints in revelation 20, is it your position that 1 Peter 5:9 is completely irrelevant to the saints to whom Satan is warring against in revelation 20?

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree that the strong man was bound so his house could be plundered (Matthew 12, acts 26), and that Satan’s works were destroyed (1 John 3), and that Satan no longer has the power over death (Hebrews 2). Although, 2 Thessalonians 2 makes no mention of Satan being bound in abyss, so not sure what you are talking about there . BUT these are completely irrelevant to my argument.

Revelation literally states that when Satan is loosed, he deceives the nations TO GATHER THEM FOR BATTLE (revelation 20:7-9). so if you provide any gospel or epistolic evidence that Satan is now bound from warring against the church, that would greatly help the “traditional” amil side.

The idea that Satan is bound in the abyss for a “thousand years” from deceiving the nations from warring against the the church until some to future time when he is released is found nowhere in the gospels, epistles, nor book of acts. Therefore, I simply take revelation 20 to be a metaphorical and apocalyptic story that contains the gospel truths: Christs resurrection and victory, the realized promise to the saints, and the persecution of the church by Satan which is ultimately vindicated by God. I don’t believe there is any literal thousand 1,000 years or literal long period where Satan is bound from warring against the nations because this idea is not found in the gospels and epistles.

so back to Peter, no, I have not ignored 1 Peter 5:9. It does not say “Satan is now bound, so you can now resist him.” Instead it says “Satan is prowling and looking to devour. Resist him.” So, while I believe peters exhortation is completely applicable to the saints in revelation 20, is it your position that 1 Peter 5:9 is completely irrelevant to the saints to whom Satan is warring against in revelation 20?

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You don't believe (The Beast) or (Two Witnesses) will be literal future physical figures, so we have a pre-determined bias before starting

So, I guess your predetermined belief that they are two individuals that you take into your study of Revelation 20:7-9 is biased then?

Fact is (The Saints) are the (Two Witnesses) that the beast will overcome and kill, and their camp is Jerusalem where their dead bodies will lay in a Jerusalem street for 3.5 days

Fact is that you don't know what a fact is. Let me tell you what are not facts. They are not opinions like what you are stating here.

These (Two Witnesses) will bring literal plagues upon this literal world in torment of the unsaved wicked, a complete replay of Moses against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the entire world will be drawn to Israel/Jerusalem to kill God's (Two Witnesses) and the Lord returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Can you explain the logistics of how a number "as the sand of the sea" could all travel to Jerusalem to surround these two individuals?