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Question for Amillennialists

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
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Luke 19:41-46
  • "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
  • Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
  • For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
  • And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
  • And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
  • Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves."
Many Christians refuse to hear the part where Christ unambiguously says the city shall be laid even with the ground and her children within her. It's very willfully convenient to leave that part out.
What are you talking about? That seems to be exactly what happened in 70 AD. Is it just a coincidence that the city was surrounded around 70 AD and then destroyed? How could that have nothing to do with what Jesus was talking about when He was clearly mourning over the city itself and its people because He knew what was going to happen to them?

Now, who did Christ said TRULY were the enemies of Jerusalem and how were they compassed round about her? Who truly brought the city to desolation? Was it the Romans, or was it those who would smite the Shepherd?
It was both. It's ludicrous to act as if the Romans were not their enemies. Yes, they most certainly were. But, so were the Pharisees and scribes and other leaders who rejected Christ and had Him put to death.

Only by comparing scripture with scripture will we ever know the "TRUE" answer to that. No, it's not the Romans!
Wrong! To say that the Romans were not enemies of Jerusalem is ludicrous! Yes, they were! Goodness sakes. But, they also had enemies in their own ranks (the aforementioned Pharisees and scribes, for example).

Christ said that the city Jerusalem ITSELF and ALL ITS CHILDREN WITHIN would be laid even with the ground so that Not one stone would be left standing one upon another. Again, Christ's specific qualification for fulfillment, not mine. Of course, the physical city remained with many stones left standing one upon another, which means that the physical city in AD 70 was NOT what Christ was speaking about in the prophecy.
Where are you getting your information? The city was rebuilt later, so you can't base your understanding of what happened back then on what the city is like now.

Only their spiritual city, the Old Testament congregation qualifies for having been completely laid even with the ground and brought to desolation. The kingdom representative was taken from her and gave to another which is the New Testament Congregation in three days! Spiritually!
Both are true! Everything is always one or the other with you.

We have to understand, Christ didn't weep for literal stones or for a physical city Jerusalem, he wept for the congregation Jerusalem, the people who were the stones and the city proper!
Of course! He knew that they were going to be killed by the Roman armies and that saddened Him. But, it has to be done because it was already determined that God's wrath against them (the unbelieving Jews) was going to be carried out. And it was.

It is "THEY" who would be brought to desolation or total ruin by their abominations, and it is they who were laid even with the ground.
Yes, but so were the temple buildings and the city itself. The destruction had to be complete because God's wrath was meant to be carried out against all there who rejected Christ.

Reading ahead, it looks like you basically just continue repeating yourself and saying things that I already know (as if you are spiritual and I'm not - get over yourself!), so I'm not going to respond to everything you said from here on. Looks like I will have to divide this post into two posts because of the character limit.

Hope this helps.
It helps me to see that you haven't changed much from before and still think you are holier than thou and more spiritual than everyone else. There is no balance in your approach to scripture. Not everything has to have a spiritual only fulfillment.
 
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Truth7t7

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Okay, I'm done with you. Comparing me to the Pharisees is over the line and unacceptable. I have many better things to do than deal with ridiculous insults and nonsense like this.
No insult whatsoever, you and the pharisees look at a physical temple that took 46 years to build "A Fact" Jesus spoke of his body as the temple to be destroyed

Jesus Is The Lord
 
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TribulationSigns

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What are you talking about? That seems to be exactly what happened in 70 AD. Is it just a coincidence that the city was surrounded around 70 AD and then destroyed? How could that have nothing to do with what Jesus was talking about when He was clearly mourning over the city itself and its people because He knew what was going to happen to them?

No, he was mourned over HIS people, the Old Testament congregation, they are the temple of his body. Their kingdom representative was taken from them and given to other (NT where Christ is now the corner chief stone of that rebuilding in 3 days. This has nothing to do with the literal building in 70AD. Sorry!

It was both. It's ludicrous to act as if the Romans were not their enemies. Yes, they most certainly were. But, so were the Pharisees and scribes and other leaders who rejected Christ and had Him put to death.

The world was always God's congregation's enemy. Christ was talking about HIS OWN PEOPLE who came against him. Not Romans. Pharisees and scribes were Christ's people but they are corporately. They are the ones who put him to Death. They were the one who said "curify him!" You need to understand that it was the fall of the old testament congregation right there, the moment His people put him to death. The moment the veil was torn. It was finished for OT congregation. No need to wait for 37 years until the physical stones falling.

Wrong! To say that the Romans were not enemies of Jerusalem is ludicrous! Yes, they were! Goodness sakes. But, they also had enemies in their own ranks (the aforementioned Pharisees and scribes, for example).

It is HIS PEOPLE who came against Him Christ is their prince. Not Roman Prince! You need to stay with the context of Daniel 9:24-27 to find out who the prince and his people are!

Where are you getting your information? The city was rebuilt later, so you can't base your understanding of what happened back then on what the city is like now.

I am sorry but you are wrong. If Christ said that there is no stone stand upon other. The very stones that existed in 32AD or 70AD should not still sitting upon other stones like we see today. No, the stones Christ talked about is PEOPLE of the congregation! The stones of the old testament fell, and in three days Christ, rebuild it, this time with Gentiles Stones! It is a spiritual city all along. But if you are still stuck with the physical city, well... <zip!>
Both are true! Everything is always one or the other with you.

Everything is God's interpretation that we need to find in Scripture, not history book.

Of course! He knew that they were going to be killed by the Roman armies and that saddened Him.

That is not what He meant. It is the children of the congregation who have lost the kingdom representation. The blindness is happening in part to Israel. Not about being physically killed by Romans.

But, it has to be done because it was already determined that God's wrath against them (the unbelieving Jews) was going to be carried out. And it was.

The unbelieving Jews are the messengers (angels) of Satan who fought with Christ and his messenger and they are cast out of the kingdom (old testament congregation that is falling). Salvation has come and it comes through the New Testament congregation that was rebuilt in 3 days with Christ's resurrection.

Rev 12:7-11
(7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
(8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Sounds like anything to do with 70AD, humm??



Yes, but so were the temple buildings and the city itself. The destruction had to be complete because God's wrath was meant to be carried out against all there who rejected Christ.

Sorry nope, not physical temple and city. It is PEOPLE, those who against Christ. They are the stones of the old testament congregation which have fallen! And remember Christ rebuilt it and this time will include the Gentiles stones. Nothing to do with physical buildings in 70AD.


Reading ahead, it looks like you basically just continue repeating yourself and saying things that I already know (as if you are spiritual and I'm not - get over yourself!)

I thought you were spiritual, especially with book of Revelation but seems that you seeing Matthew 24:1-2 through carnal lens where Christ has clearly talked about His people, not physical stones.

It helps me to see that you haven't changed much from before and still think you are holier than thou and more spiritual than everyone else. There is no balance in your approach to scripture. Not everything has to have a spiritual only fulfillment.

I see, sounds like you won't let go of physical temporal buildings in your interpretation when Christ has not see that way. Okay, The Lord judges.
 
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TribulationSigns

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No insult whatsoever, you and the pharisees look at a physical temple that took 46 years to build "A Fact" Jesus spoke of his body as the temple to be destroyed.

Joh 2:19-21
(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
(21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

Christ clearly prophesied that the Jews would destroy "this" temple, and in three days He will rise it up. Naturally, the Jews thought Christ was talking about a physical temple. But Christ clearly was not talking about it. He said that he talked about the temple of his body! Therefore, the temple of his body is actually His people, the Jews who represented the Old Testament congregation.
Dan 9:26
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The context of Daniel 9:24-27 is about God and His People. Period. So the people of the (Messiah the) Prince is the Jews who did come and destroy the city and the sanctuary (temple). This was fulfillment of John 2:19 but of course Spriitual Jew refuse to accept it thinking it must be physical stones of the building and temple being destroyed by Titus the prince and his Roman soldiers. But there is a problem with his interpretation, because the prince of verse 26 only refers to what said in the context, the Messiah the PRINCE. Not some evil prince from Rome. Oh well.

Anyway, the Jews did, in fact, reject Christ and destroy Christ, but in three days, Christ rebuild it in three days with his resurrection.

Luk 20:17-18
(17) And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
(18) Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The builders are the JEWS! For they are the stones of Old Testament congregation themselves, the temple of Christ's body! Not Romans! They are the ones who have rejected Christ and killed him. As a judgment, the Jews lost their kingdom representation which God took it and gave to another. Obviously, it is the New Testament congregation that is now being rebuilt since the resurrection, including Pentecost, where Christ is NOW a corner chief stone! All of this took place at the Cross! Just as the Bible says! Not 70AD with the fall of 'physical stones of the buildings and temple" despite the fact that some of their stones are still standing upon others today.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I Strongly Disagree With Your Symbolic Allegory

Really?

Luk 20:17-18
(17) And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
(18) Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Do you agree that the stone is Christ? And the builders are the Jews?

Or you still don't agree with it because you don't like my spiritual understanding of what the verses talk about?
 
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Truth7t7

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Really?

Luk 20:17-18
(17) And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
(18) Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Do you agree that the stone is Christ? And the builders are the Jews?

Or you still don't agree with it because you don't like my spiritual understanding of what the verses talk about?
Jesus is the stone that builders rejected and the Jews did reject this corner stone

However this has absolutely no relationship to your claim seen below "None"

I Strongly Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

Quote TribulationSigns:

"Therefore, the temple of his body is actually His people, the Jews who represented the Old Testament congregation."
 
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TribulationSigns

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Jesus is the stone that builders rejected and the Jews did reject this corner stone

However this has absolutely no relationship to your claim seen below "None"

I Strongly Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

Quote TribulationSigns:

"Therefore, the temple of his body is actually His people, the Jews who represented the Old Testament congregation."

Well… they are.

This is why the Jewish people (as well as Christians) to this day do not understand that God NEVER promised them a Physical Kingdom in the Physical nation of Israel, even though superficial reading of the Old Testament may lead some (even today) to believe this? He never promised them a worldly Kingdom and Messiah to rule in the physical city in the middle east anymore than He promised every physical stone in the city would be thrown down. They, like you, look to the worldly/Physical interpretation, while God speaks of the Spiritual. As it is written:

Luke 19:41-44
  • "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
  • Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
  • For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
  • And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."
He beheld the city, wept over it and declared unambiguously (to anyone with Spirit who can read) that the days would come when its enemies would cast a trench about it, and compass it round and keep it in on every side and lay it even with the ground, and the children within that city as well leaving not one stone upon another that would not be thrown down. That's God's Word "in that context." Then God explains WHY: because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. It has nothing to do with AD 70, it refers to the Judgment of Israel where the stone becomes the head of the corner of another building. Now you can attempt to counter Christ's words claiming it really was only the Temple he spoke of if you like, that would not be accurate. His words are UNAMBIGUOUS that He wept over and refers to the whole City and all the children within her, wherein not one stone would be left standing. Destroying the Temple of His body "CLEARLY" is a representation of the destruction of the whole of national Israel. Try as you may, these unambiguous words are not "subject" to private or personal interpretation. And that city and people within it being destroyed didn't happen in AD 70, it happened at the cross.

But the revelation is hid from their eyes, as it is from some professing Christians today as well! As was stated in the original prophesy:

Isaiah 29:11-12
  • "And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
  • And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."
Is it in my power to unseal the book to whom God has not unsealed it, or to teach it to him whom God has not taught it? No. If you ever learn the truth of this, it will be through the Spirit, by the Word alone. Not me, Josephus or any other teacher you may come across.
 
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TribulationSigns

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To some honest Christians here who admitted must be missing something.

We all miss something because things are easy to miss. The Bible is like a gigantic picture puzzle with thousands of pieces that all fit perfectly together, but very difficult to see that picture simply from the pile of pieces in the box. An imperfect analogy I'm sure, but you get the picture (no pun intended).

Proverbs 25:2
  • "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
We show our qualification for the high office of Kings who reign with Christ by spiritual discernment in searching out a matter.
 
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claninja

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It's not hard to reconcile that at all when you consider that the gospel DID go out into the world in the first century despite the attempts to stop it. Sure, there was some resistance, but that isn't what Satan's binding is about. It's not about him being totally incapacitated as premils believe, it's about him being restrained from having the kind of power he had in Old Testament times, like what passages such as Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8 and Acts 26:15-18 talk about. In Old Testament times he held the power of death, but in New Testament times he does not (Hebrews 2:14-15). I am honestly baffled as to how anyone would not relate that fact to his binding.

You are making the same mistake as Premils by only referring to 1 Peter 5:8 while seemingly ignoring 1 Peter 5:9 which says that we should resist the devil. It's not as if people are just powerless against his attacks. James 4:7 says that if we submit to God and resist the devil he must flee from us. Was that true in OT times? No. The reason he must flee from us if we resist Him is because he knows he cannot fight against the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. I believe Satan's binding relates to all of that, but it seems that you don't take any of that into consideration, just like premils.
I would disagree with your assessment on me, and premils, in regards to ignoring on 1 Peter 5:9. The “camp of saints” in vs 9 of revelation 20 who resisted being deceived by Satan would be those very same saints that can resist according to 1 Peter 5:9.

The gospels and epistles make it clear that 1.) the works of Satan were destroyed in the first century 2.) satan was actively working against the church

I simply believe 1.) refers to satans binding 2.) refers to satans deceiving and making war on the church.

Satan deceiving, hindering and leading astray, but soon to be crushed, as stated by Paul is difficult to reconcile with the traditional amil position that satan is now bound and will be released.
 
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Truth7t7

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To some honest Christians here who admitted must be missing something.

We all miss something because things are easy to miss. The Bible is like a gigantic picture puzzle with thousands of pieces that all fit perfectly together, but very difficult to see that picture simply from the pile of pieces in the box. An imperfect analogy I'm sure, but you get the picture (no pun intended).

Proverbs 25:2
  • "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
We show our qualification for the high office of Kings who reign with Christ by spiritual discernment in searching out a matter.
Please include version used in citation, thanks
 
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Truth7t7

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The reason he must flee from us if we resist Him is because he knows he cannot fight against the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. I believe Satan's binding relates to all of that, but it seems that you don't take any of that into consideration, just like premils.
And your explanation above has absolutely no relationship to Satan's binding seen in Revelation 20:1-3 "None"
 
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TribulationSigns

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Please include version used in citation, thanks

I did in many incidents with examples of spiritual discernment on many subjects. You just don't like it and call it "spiritual allegory" so you refuse to receive it. That is between you and God.
 
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TribulationSigns

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And your explanation above has absolutely no relationship to Satan's binding seen in Revelation 20:1-3 "None"

Yes, it does! God's restraining hand on Satan is what binds him! His hand is what the chains and key point to. It's his authority and being stronger than a strong man, Satan. So he could build His Church with His people filled with Holy Spirit. Only He will decide when to loosen Satan -- that is after all Gentiles be coming in.

2Th 2:6-8
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
 
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Truth7t7

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I did in many incidents with examples of spiritual discernment on many subjects. You just don't like it and call it "spiritual allegory" so you refuse to receive it. That is between you and God.
I have been observing your postings in eschatology, the vast majority of your interpretation in Revelation is symbolic allegory, nothing appears to be literal

1. Do you believe in a future literal human man (The Beast) seen in Revelation chapter 13

2. Do you believe the (Two Witbesses) seen in Revelation chapter 11 will be literal prophets returned, that have physical bodies that die?

3. Do you believe in a future literal visible second coming of Jesus Christ as seen in Revelation 1:7?
 
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Truth7t7

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Yes, it does! God's restraining hand on Satan is what binds him! His hand is what the chains and key point to. It's his authority and being stronger than a strong man, Satan. So he could build His Church with His people filled with Holy Spirit. Only He will decide when to loosen Satan -- that is after all Gentiles be coming in.

2Th 2:6-8
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations
which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

Stop it right there. Do you understand what deceing the nations refers to? Do you think God is talking about Satan deceive France, China, or the United States of America? No. The nations often refer to "Gentiles." Not gentiles of nations outside Israel, but the unbelieving people of the world and those within the church. Let look at 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 carefully, which speaks of the time when iniquity will be un-restrained or loosed after having been restrained. Particularly take note of verses 6,7,8, and 9:

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-9
  • "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

  • For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now restraineth will restrain, until he be taken out of the way.

  • And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

  • Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.."
This Chapter of 2nd Thessalonians is dealing with the falling away (apostasia) or literally divorcing or separation of the Church from God, which precedes the Lord's second advent. And verse 6 tells us that there is something withholding or holding down this "Evil" power of Satan, but that there is also a "specific time " appointed when this evil will be set loose and revealed. This sin (lawlessness or iniquity) of Satan was in the world even at the time of the writing of 2nd Thessalonians, and yet God reveals here 'unambiguously' that it was being restrained to be revealed at a later (His) time. This iniquity or transgression that is being held down is obviously the power of Satan to do great lawlessness in the Holy Temple and thus deceive the nations thereby. While it is being restrained the man of lawlessness cannot sit in God's Temple, the Church will continue to grow. This was iniquity of Satan bound at the cross so the Temple (Church) could be built as I have told you many times. That's why these verses illustrate that it is being held down or restrained and declares a time it will be loosed. Naturally when it is let go, (unbound, unrestrained, released, whatever you want to call it), then this iniquity will abound or increase (see Matt. 24:12) and there will be deceivings of false prophets, lying signs and wonders and miracles and great tribulation for true believers.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9

  • "even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders."
When that iniquity that was held down is loosed, then false prophets, lying teachers and the lawless man, will come after the working of Satan to DECEIVE THE NATIONS (unsaved) with all Power and lying Signs and Wonders. It is no mere coincidence that this mirrors Revelation chapter 20 where when Satan is loosed from being bound, he goes forth to "deceive" the nations of the 4 quarters of the world. In other words, it will be a universal deception of the peoples of the world by the loosing of this spirit of Satan. The iniquity of Satan (which was restrained) spoken of in Revelation 20, will be loosed to go forth deceiving the world with false gospels, and 2nd Thessalonians mirrors that message of Satan's deception in great power. This isn't God playing word games, it's talking about the same time, and the same loosing of Satan. The context of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is of Christ's second coming and our gathering together to meet Him, but FIRST it declares, these things had to happen. Apostasy, lawless man in the temple of God as if he was God, and the iniquity that was restrained be loosed. It all points to the same conclusion. Namely, after Christ builds His Holy Temple, then Satan will be loosed to deceive within the congregation all over the world. The question would now arise, Why? And 2nd Thessalonians 2:10 answers this. It is because they received not the love of truth, that they might have Salvation, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The same reason God has always brought judgment upon His congregation! Selah!! It shouldn't come as any surprise to faithful students of the Bible!

Sadly, there are those who are commonly called 'Carnal Christians' (which is really no Christian at all) in most every Church, and they tend to want the wide road, the smooth road, the worldly way. They are usually kept in check by the faithfulness of the majority for the past 2,000 years, but as many in the Church depart from the faith, it is spoken of as their being seduced and deceived by false prophets and teachers. And verse 7 of 2nd Thessalonians 2 explains that something was holding this iniquity restrained that it couldn't take place then. It says "he that now letteth, will let, until he be taken out of the way." In the KJV this word "letteth" is an old English word which means restrain. The word translated there is the Greek word [katecho] or literally Hold Down, and is derived from it's root Greek ['kata] meaning down and ['echo] meaning to hold. So once again we see the principle that something is holding Satan's iniquity down until a certain set time (spoken of here as, till one be taken out of the midst). This iniquity of Satan which will be revealed later, was restrained until Christ be taken out of the midst of the Churches. Because the Lord is the only one who could restrain it. The Lord is the only one in the midst of the Church or temple who restrains iniquity. When iniquity is loosed (Matthew 24:12, the great tribulation period) iniquity will again abound, and the Love of God shall grow cold. This is the apostasy, or divorcing (separation) from God which 2nd thessalonians speaks of.

Selah!
 
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TribulationSigns

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I have been observing your postings in eschatology, the vast majority of your interpretation in Revelation is symbolic allegory, nothing appears to be literal

1. Do you believe in a future literal human man (The Beast) seen in Revelation chapter 13

No. I have cited Scripture and explained it.

2. Do you believe the (Two Witbesses) seen in Revelation chapter 11 will be literal prophets returned, that have physical bodies that die?

No. I have cited Scripture and explained it.

3. Do you believe in a future literal visible second coming of Jesus Christ as seen in Revelation 1:7?

Yes, Christ Jesus will appear visible at the Last Trump in the same manner as he went up into Heaven.
 
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Truth7t7

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Stop it right there. Do you understand what deceing the nations refers to? Do you think God is talking about Satan deceive France, China, or the United States of America? No. The nations often refer to "Gentiles." Not gentiles of nations outside Israel, but the unbelieving people of the world and those within the church. Let look at 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 carefully, which speaks of the time when iniquity will be un-restrained or loosed after having been restrained. Particularly take note of verses 6,7,8, and 9:

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-9
  • "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

  • For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now restraineth will restrain, until he be taken out of the way.

  • And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

  • Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.."
This Chapter of 2nd Thessalonians is dealing with the falling away (apostasia) or literally divorcing or separation of the Church from God, which precedes the Lord's second advent. And verse 6 tells us that there is something withholding or holding down this "Evil" power of Satan, but that there is also a "specific time " appointed when this evil will be set loose and revealed. This sin (lawlessness or iniquity) of Satan was in the world even at the time of the writing of 2nd Thessalonians, and yet God reveals here 'unambiguously' that it was being restrained to be revealed at a later (His) time. This iniquity or transgression that is being held down is obviously the power of Satan to do great lawlessness in the Holy Temple and thus deceive the nations thereby. While it is being restrained the man of lawlessness cannot sit in God's Temple, the Church will continue to grow. This was iniquity of Satan bound at the cross so the Temple (Church) could be built as I have told you many times. That's why these verses illustrate that it is being held down or restrained and declares a time it will be loosed. Naturally when it is let go, (unbound, unrestrained, released, whatever you want to call it), then this iniquity will abound or increase (see Matt. 24:12) and there will be deceivings of false prophets, lying signs and wonders and miracles and great tribulation for true believers.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9

  • "even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders."
When that iniquity that was held down is loosed, then false prophets, lying teachers and the lawless man, will come after the working of Satan to DECEIVE THE NATIONS (unsaved) with all Power and lying Signs and Wonders. It is no mere coincidence that this mirrors Revelation chapter 20 where when Satan is loosed from being bound, he goes forth to "deceive" the nations of the 4 quarters of the world. In other words, it will be a universal deception of the peoples of the world by the loosing of this spirit of Satan. The iniquity of Satan (which was restrained) spoken of in Revelation 20, will be loosed to go forth deceiving the world with false gospels, and 2nd Thessalonians mirrors that message of Satan's deception in great power. This isn't God playing word games, it's talking about the same time, and the same loosing of Satan. The context of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is of Christ's second coming and our gathering together to meet Him, but FIRST it declares, these things had to happen. Apostasy, lawless man in the temple of God as if he was God, and the iniquity that was restrained be loosed. It all points to the same conclusion. Namely, after Christ builds His Holy Temple, then Satan will be loosed to deceive within the congregation all over the world. The question would now arise, Why? And 2nd Thessalonians 2:10 answers this. It is because they received not the love of truth, that they might have Salvation, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The same reason God has always brought judgment upon His congregation! Selah!! It shouldn't come as any surprise to faithful students of the Bible!

Sadly, there are those who are commonly called 'Carnal Christians' (which is really no Christian at all) in most every Church, and they tend to want the wide road, the smooth road, the worldly way. They are usually kept in check by the faithfulness of the majority for the past 2,000 years, but as many in the Church depart from the faith, it is spoken of as their being seduced and deceived by false prophets and teachers. And verse 7 of 2nd Thessalonians 2 explains that something was holding this iniquity restrained that it couldn't take place then. It says "he that now letteth, will let, until he be taken out of the way." In the KJV this word "letteth" is an old English word which means restrain. The word translated there is the Greek word [katecho] or literally Hold Down, and is derived from it's root Greek ['kata] meaning down and ['echo] meaning to hold. So once again we see the principle that something is holding Satan's iniquity down until a certain set time (spoken of here as, till one be taken out of the midst). This iniquity of Satan which will be revealed later, was restrained until Christ be taken out of the midst of the Churches. Because the Lord is the only one who could restrain it. The Lord is the only one in the midst of the Church or temple who restrains iniquity. When iniquity is loosed (Matthew 24:12, the great tribulation period) iniquity will again abound, and the Love of God shall grow cold. This is the apostasy, or divorcing (separation) from God which 2nd thessalonians speaks of.

Selah!
Stop It Right There? BIG SMILES!

I Disagree With Your Claims

"Deceive The Nations" is to battle in Revelation 20:1-8 as was clearly explained in post #76 above
 
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Spiritual Jew

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No, he was mourned over HIS people, the Old Testament congregation, they are the temple of his body. Their kingdom representative was taken from them and given to other (NT where Christ is now the corner chief stone of that rebuilding in 3 days. This has nothing to do with the literal building in 70AD. Sorry!
Sorry, but you are wrong. The context is very clearly about the destruction of the temple buildings standing at that time. Your attempts to prove how spiritual you are prevent you from seeing when things are fulfilled literally. You try to turn everything into a spiritual fulfillment. You are the opposite of the hyper-literalist. I guess that would be a hyper-spiritualist. You lack objectivity and balance in your thinking just like them.

The world was always God's congregation's enemy. Christ was talking about HIS OWN PEOPLE who came against him. Not Romans. Pharisees and scribes were Christ's people but they are corporately. They are the ones who put him to Death. They were the one who said "curify him!" You need to understand that it was the fall of the old testament congregation right there, the moment His people put him to death. The moment the veil was torn. It was finished for OT congregation. No need to wait for 37 years until the physical stones falling.
You are showing a suprising lack of discernment if you don't think that the Romans were also the enemies of the Jews. I'd love for you to try to tell them that. But, the Roman armies did as God wanted because they carried out His wrath against the unbelieving Jews without even realizing it. Which shows God's sovereignty in that situation.

It is HIS PEOPLE who came against Him Christ is their prince. Not Roman Prince! You need to stay with the context of Daniel 9:24-27 to find out who the prince and his people are!
It's both. The Jews had Him sentenced to death, so they bore the responsibility of destroying the city and the sanctuary and it was the Roman armies who physically destroyed the city and the sanctuary. You lack objectivity, so you only focus on the spiritual aspect of what happened.

I am sorry but you are wrong.
I don't believe that you are sorry. I'm not sorry to say that you're wrong.

If Christ said that there is no stone stand upon other. The very stones that existed in 32AD or 70AD should not still sitting upon other stones like we see today.
What we see today does not reflect what was there almost 2,000 years ago. The boundaries are different now than they were back then. New things have been built there since then. You're not even thinking about this rationally.

Everything is God's interpretation that we need to find in Scripture, not history book.
Does everything prophesied in scripture have to be recorded in scripture? What about the earthquakes, wars, pestilences, etc. that Jesus prophesied about in the Olivet Discourse? Those can't happen unless there is details in scripture about them (when they happened, what happened exactly, etc.)? You're making statements that can't be supported by scripture itself. There is no reason why something prophesied in scripture couldn't be fulfilled in history that we get information about in a history book. Don't be so silly.

That is not what He meant. It is the children of the congregation who have lost the kingdom representation. The blindness is happening in part to Israel. Not about being physically killed by Romans.
Jesus talked about both. Your lack of objectivity continues to shine through.

The unbelieving Jews are the messengers (angels) of Satan who fought with Christ and his messenger and they are cast out of the kingdom (old testament congregation that is falling). Salvation has come and it comes through the New Testament congregation that was rebuilt in 3 days with Christ's resurrection.

Rev 12:7-11
(7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
(8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Sounds like anything to do with 70AD, humm??
When did I say it did, hummmmm???

I thought you were spiritual, especially with book of Revelation
I am. You are not the one to judge that. By acting as if every prophecy has a spiritual fulfillment does not make you spiritual, it makes you biased and not objective.

but seems that you seeing Matthew 24:1-2 through carnal lens where Christ has clearly talked about His people, not physical stones.
Seeing a physical fulfillment of a prophecy doesn't make me carnal. That is ridiculous. Zechariah 9:9 prophesies about Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, does it not? Does seeing that as having been literally, physically fulfilled as written mean I'm looking at it through a carnal lens? Of course not. Such nonsense.

I see, sounds like you won't let go of physical temporal buildings in your interpretation when Christ has not see that way.
Yes, He did. When He said "See these things" He was referring to the same things (the temple buildings) that the disciples were pointing at.

Okay, The Lord judges.
Yes, the Lord judges, not you. Remember that.
 
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