Is Calvinism a heresy?

[maxamir]

I don't see a point being made. Just because God "gave them up" to continue debasing themselves has nothing to do with repentance.

those who were hardened and died in their sin never received repentance from God and confirmed what type of vessels they were.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

 

[maxamir]

Grace is God receiving a sinner who repents. That is not something the sinner deserves or something God is obliged to do. To Him alone is the glory!

Grace is God granting a sinner the ability to repent and believe unto His glory!

Psa 3:8 Salvation belongs to the LORD. Your blessing is upon Your people. Selah

 

[Mark Quayle]

Obedience is the fruit of regeneration that springs forth from loving gratitude and not merit.

Joh_14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
Joh_14:24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
Joh_15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.

If your statement is accurate, (and I do think it is, btw), look at the scope of things that "love" encompasses! There is more to it than any human can include in a comprehensive definition.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If it's given by God, is it truly repentance? In other words, if Esau wasn't really repentant, but God "gave him repentance", then He didn't really change his mind about things, God changed his mind for him.

Look at it from God's point of view, who sees the silly things we think we mean. If it is NOT given by God, it isn't real repentance.

What is it about us that demands we exist as our own beings, and not God's tools for GOD's purposes? What makes us think we have our part to do, and God has his, as if our part was not also God's work??? "Apart from me you can do nothing" is not hyperbole.

 

[Derf]

those who were hardened and died in their sin never received repentance from God and confirmed what type of vessels they were.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Repentance means you've changed from one type of vessel to the other.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 KJV — Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Those vessels fitted for destruction become godly vessels. That's why God is longsuffering, so that as many as are willing to repent will do so before it's too late.
Jeremiah 18:4 KJV — And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
...
Jeremiah 18:8 KJV — If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

That's God granting repentance!

 

[Derf]

Look at it from God's point of view, who sees the silly things we think we mean.

But, as you point out below, you believe that God wants us to do or mean those silly things

If it is NOT given by God, it isn't real repentance.

I don't see that at all. Why would you think that is so self evident?

What is it about us that demands we exist as our own beings, and not God's tools for GOD's purposes?

Are you saying God's image involves being a tool for someone else's purpose, and not existing as our own being? That's a strange way to talk about God.

What makes us think we have our part to do, and God has his, as if our part was not also God's work??? "Apart from me you can do nothing" is not hyperbole.

And you think we need God's approval to sin? Apart from God you can't even do something God doesn't want you to do? You can see that it makes God the author of sin. So maybe what you believe is one of those silly things we think we mean--from God's point of view, of course.

 

[zoidar]

Grace is God granting a sinner the ability to repent and believe unto His glory!

Psa 3:8 Salvation belongs to the LORD. Your blessing is upon Your people. Selah

God's blessing being upon His people the Israelites has not much to do with us or repentance. But sure salvation is God's work. You believe it's God's work in a person to repent, I believe it's God's work in a person as he repents.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But, as you point out below, you believe that God wants us to do or mean those silly things

Can you quote where I said something that led you to believe that God "wants us to do or mean those silly things"? I don't see it.

I don't see that at all. Why would you think that is so self evident?

Well, has it not been obvious to you that your decisions are not entirely reliable? Only God is entirely dependable.
Are you saying God's image involves being a tool for someone else's person, and not existing as our own being? That's a strange way to talk about God.

Are you saying God's image involves being a tool for someone else's person, and not existing as our own being? That's a strange way to talk about God.

"Someone else's person"? Are you talking about another human? Or are you calling God "someone else"? Or what do you mean?

I am saying that we are not only what we see ourselves as being. In fact, we have hardly a clue as to what God is doing. I am saying that we are not ontologically what we see. We are 'becoming' —not 'being'. And no, I don't deny the principle of "already, but not yet." I'm saying that we are pretty doggone ignorant.

And you think we need God's approval to sin? Apart from God you can't even do something God doesn't want you to do? You can see that it makes God the author of sin. So maybe what you believe is one of those silly things we think we mean--from God's point of view, of course.

"...God's approval to sin"? Approval?? Do you think our obedience to what he desires to happen is the usual way his decree comes to pass? Who do you think we ARE??? He doesn't need our obedience to accomplish what he purposed from the beginning to happen in each case. In fact, he uses both obedience and disobedience to accomplish what he has decreed concerning us.

God owes us nothing. He needs nothing.

And apart from his causation even sin would be impossible, just as existence would be impossible. God has decreed absolutely everything that comes to pass. No, I did not say "commanded". There is a huge difference.

 

[BobRyan]

God indeed commands all men everywhere to repent

so much for partiality or "arbitrary selection"
Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial'

but how is a man able to repent when the Scriptures confirm that men love their sin

The supernatural drawing of God (a we see in John 6) enables all the "choice" that depravity disables.

And John 12:32 tells us that God supernaturally "draws ALL mankind" to Himself

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

That is a problem for Calvinism

1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World"

Who is the us?

The answer is those to whom this epistle was written to.

No because if that were true then only the people alive in Peter's day would be saved.

 

[Mark Quayle]

maxamir said:
God indeed commands all men everywhere to repent

so much for partiality or "arbitrary selection"
Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial'

Romans 2:11 is referring to the fact that God does not prefer Jew over Gentile, (nor, for that matter, for any characteristic endemic to the person, nor for any earned merit.) It does not mean that God has generic intentions only.

But if God commands everyone to repent, there is no implication that they are all equally able to repent. In fact, there is every indication in Scripture that all are equally UNABLE to repent, but for the work of the Spirit of God within them.

It is fallacious to use Romans 2:11 to claim that in the Gospel, God has posed a mathematical equation into which we are to insert the variables.

 

[John Mullally]

maxamir said:
God indeed commands all men everywhere to repent

Romans 2:11 is referring to the fact that God does not prefer Jew over Gentile, (nor, for that matter, for any characteristic endemic to the person, nor for any earned merit.) It does not mean that God has generic intentions only.

But if God commands everyone to repent, there is no implication that they are all equally able to repent. In fact, there is every indication in Scripture that all are equally UNABLE to repent, but for the work of the Spirit of God within them.

It is fallacious to use Romans 2:11 to claim that in the Gospel, God has posed a mathematical equation into which we are to insert the variables.

It is not just Paul (in Romans 2:11), but Peter in Acts 10:34-35 who also shows that God does not show favoritism. Acts 10:34-35, treats divine impartiality as a virtue, implying that it is something good and noble about God, perhaps which we should all emulate in our own interactions with our neighbors. if those who “fear Him” and “does what is right” are those who are hand-picked from eternity to be irresistibly caused to want to do that, then how would that be a demonstration of impartiality?

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.​

For Peter in Acts 10, that race was being born a Jew, whereas for Calvinists of our modern era, that race is Calvinism’s caste of “the elect.” God does not show Favoritism but is willing to accept anyone, regardless of what race they were born into or what alleged caste they were created into, so long as they fear Him and do what is right. God does not show favoritism in the Calvinist two-step process not described in scripture: first irresistibly changing the nature of a hand-picked set of people termed the elect to "fear him and do what is right" and then choosing those who "fear him and do what is right". In Ephesians 1:13-14, we see the process as being hear, believe and than sealed by the spirit. There is nothing in that passage that says that God changes our nature so we will hear and believe.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.​

Assuming Calvinism for a moment, why would God choose one Totally depraved individual over another Totally Depraved individual - as Calvinists deem that everyone starts out a total hater of God? The very moment that ignorance is confessed to that question, then nothing can be ruled out. In fact, arbitrary favoritism is more favorable to the Calvinistic paradigm, in which God’s choice has literally nothing to do with the individual, but instead has everything to do with God’s sovereign right to act in arbitrary fashion. Ultimately, if God were to act in truly arbitrary fashion (as per Calvinism we are all Totally Depraved haters of God)., then He would not be showing Favoritism, since the individuals involved would make no difference to Him. In fact, a truly random draw would highlight divine privilege. In Calvinist Determinism, God controls all of the variables, and hence whatever choice God makes for any individual, God (according to Calvinism) causes the uniqueness of that individual when making His choice. Hence, for a consistent determinist, God (according to Calvinism) must be acting in arbitrary fashion. In Calvinism, it is about arbitrary favoritism—one is chosen over another to be favored, not because of anything derived from the individual but applied to the individual.

Calvinists will commonly argue that God chooses based upon what gives Him the most glory (which Calvinist understanding of max glory is unknowable to us). This shows that the Calvinist God will predestine sorry individuals to hell in order to maximize His glory. No, God is love (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16) who became the Savior for all men (1 Timothy 4:10) and does not desire any to perish (1 Timothy 2:4 and Ezekiel 18:23). Further from 1 Corinthians 13 Paul says that love (and God is love) is kind and not self seeking (i.e. willing to predestine any to hell in order to attain more glory for himself). God is not like what Calvinist preacher Vincent Cheung says “One who thinks that God’s glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people has too high an opinion of himself and humanity.”

 

[maxamir]

Repentance means you've changed from one type of vessel to the other.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 KJV — Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Those vessels fitted for destruction become godly vessels. That's why God is longsuffering, so that as many as are willing to repent will do so before it's too late.
Jeremiah 18:4 KJV — And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
...
Jeremiah 18:8 KJV — If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

That's God granting repentance!

the vessels of wrath are indeed godly vessels that will glorify God's perfectly good, holy and just wrath for all eternity and it is a miracle that God let them breathe His air as long He does. Sadly, most interpret His longsuffering as somehow God not seeing their evil deeds and not caring about them which emboldens them towards further evil and in turn greater judgement.

Ecc 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

The only people that willingly repent are those that God made willing in the day of His power (Psalm 110:3) because unless God chooses some, none would ever choose Him.

Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Joh 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

 

[maxamir]

If your statement is accurate, (and I do think it is, btw), look at the scope of things that "love" encompasses! There is more to it than any human can include in a comprehensive definition.

2Co_9:15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

 

[maxamir]

God's blessing being upon His people the Israelites has not much to do with us or repentance. But sure salvation is God's work. You believe it's God's work in a person to repent, I believe it's God's work in a person as he repents.

With all due respect, it doesn't really matter what you think you believe, what really matters is whether what you believe is the truth.

God commands perfection (Matt 5:48). Is it possible for a person to perfectly repent by himself?

If salvation is God's work as you agreed, then doesn't man thinking he contributed something to his salvation deny grace and give him something in which to boast contrary to Scripture (1 Cor 1:27-29)?

 

[maxamir]

so much for partiality or "arbitrary selection"
Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial'

The supernatural drawing of God (a we see in John 6) enables all the "choice" that depravity disables.

And John 12:32 tells us that God supernaturally "draws ALL mankind" to Himself



That is a problem for Calvinism

1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World"



No because if that were true then only the people alive in Peter's day would be saved.

I would recommend that you go back to page 32 and start reading all of my contributions on this matter and replying to them rather than making me have to repeat myself continually.

It seems that you are stuck thinking that the word "world" means every person without exception rather than distinction in the context that it is used. Did Christ succeed in saving His people from their sins or did He come to just make salvation possible for those that would choose Him when the Scriptures declare that there are none who do so?

Please look at the two verses below which speak of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice

Mat_20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
1Ti_2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

The God given laws of logic demand "all" can not mean everyone as His ransom was also said to be for many which does not mean everyone, therefore this proves that His ransom was for all of the many, which included many people from all types from amongst all nations, tribes and tongues in this world. To not believe this is to fall into the heresy of Universalism.

Rev_7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

 

[Derf]

Can you quote where I said something that led you to believe that God "wants us to do or mean those silly things"? I don't see it.

See below.

Well, has it not been obvious to you that your decisions are not entirely reliable? Only God is entirely dependable.

How does this apply to the conversation we're having?

Are you saying God's image involves being a tool for someone else's person, and not existing as our own being? That's a strange way to talk about God.

"Someone else's person"? Are you talking about another human? Or are you calling God "someone else"? Or what do you mean?

Sorry...spell check got the best of that. I meant "someone else's purpose". If we are merely tools for God's purposes, and we are made in His image, does that mean He is merely a tool for someone else's purpose, someone more powerful than He? If not Him, then why us? Maybe God created us to actually have relationship with Him, you know, like to take walks with Him in a beautiful garden and share coversation where one party doesn't know exactly what the other party is going to say all the time.
Genesis 2:19 KJV - And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.

I am saying that we are not only what we see ourselves as being. In fact, we have hardly a clue as to what God is doing.

You don't think God tells us what He's doing, maybe like friends would do with each other?
John 15:15 KJV — Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

I am saying that we are not ontologically what we see. We are 'becoming' —not 'being'. And no, I don't deny the principle of "already, but not yet." I'm saying that we are pretty doggone ignorant.

Of some things, yes, but not some others. Why is it helpful for you to believe this? What does this support/affirm for you?

"...God's approval to sin"? Approval?? Do you think our obedience to what he desires to happen is the usual way his decree comes to pass?

How else does obedience work? The one in authority decrees something, and His subjects must obey or face consequences.

Who do you think we ARE??? He doesn't need our obedience to accomplish what he purposed from the beginning to happen in each case. In fact, he uses both obedience and disobedience to accomplish what he has decreed concerning us.

He uses our disobedience to save us? That's odd. Isn't that like saying "do evil that good may come"?

God owes us nothing. He needs nothing.

And apart from his causation even sin would be impossible, just as existence would be impossible. God has decreed absolutely everything that comes to pass.

Even those silly things that we mean?

No, I did not say "commanded". There is a huge difference.

No, there's not. God decrees then brings it to pass.
Isaiah 46:10 KJV - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[Derf]

the vessels of wrath are indeed godly vessels that will glorify God's perfectly good, holy and just wrath for all eternity and it is a miracle that God let them breathe His air as long He does. Sadly, most interpret His longsuffering as somehow God not seeing their evil deeds and not caring about them which emboldens them towards further evil and in turn greater judgement.

You mean that they do evil that even God didn't decree?

Ecc 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

The only people that willingly repent are those that God made willing in the day of His power (Psalm 110:3) because unless God chooses some, none would ever choose Him.

Then they don't "willingly repent", do they? If God made them willing, then they are forced to repent, which means they don't really repent, they just do as God programmed them to do. And before they "repented" they were doing what God programmed them to do. So I don't really understand how there's anything in what you describe that could be called "repentance" by those people.

Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Joh 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Thanks for those very nice scripture citations. Why did you include them? Are you trying to point out that your theology is at odds with Jesus' words? Because for God to force someone to become willing is not for them to come willingly. Your theology contradicts itself, and the bible.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Then they don't "willingly repent", do they? If God made them willing, then they are forced to repent, which means they don't really repent, they just do as God programmed them to do. And before they "repented" they were doing what God programmed them to do. So I don't really understand how there's anything in what you describe that could be called "repentance" by those people.

That's some really lousy logic. Did God make you willing to live? Why don't you complain about that?

 

[Derf]

That's some really lousy logic. Did God make you willing to live? Why don't you complain about that?

Some people aren't willing to live. They commit suicide.

 

[John Mullally]

That's some really lousy logic. Did God make you willing to live? Why don't you complain about that?

You should know as Calvinists are kings of lousy logic as they often repeat the mantra that if God hadn’t chosen them (which they are assuming), then they never would have chosen Christ, which sounds like self-righteousness through self-deprecating.

R.C. Sproul: “In the Reformed view of predestination, God’s choice precedes man’s choice. We choose Him only because He has first chosen us. Without divine predestination and without the divine inward call, the Reformed view holds that nobody would ever choose Christ.”​

In other words, according to Calvinism, without Irresistible Grace (having assumed they are chosen by God), they would have never chosen Christ.

​

1. First of all, how do Calvinists know that? Being absent of a "irresistible Grace" being stated in scripture they resort to their invented acronym TULIP which requires "Irresistible Grace". Therefore, Calvinists are simply speaking out of theological necessity per the "I" in TULIP. In other words, Calvinists have to say that, or else they have to admit that scripture does not support their doctrine.​

​

2. Second of all, how would Calvinists explain those who receive the Word with joy and believe for a while but later deconvert due to the competing love of the things of this world? (Luke 8:13) At some point they chose God, but did not persevere - this disproves their "P" in TULIP as per Jesus some who receive the Gospel message with joy do not persevere.​

It’s not that Christ is somehow undesirable. In fact, the Gospels are loaded with examples where people gladly received Christ, though each time, Calvinists are forced by Calvinism to chalk it up to Irresistible Grace (which again represents the "I" in TULIP.

Luke 18:23-37: “‘For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.’ They who heard it said, ‘Then who can be saved?’ But He said, ‘The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.’”​

​

In other words, those who are rich in the things of this world are more likely to be ensnared by the things of this world, whereas those who possess less, are less possessed by the world. But if Calvinism was true, then it shouldn’t make a difference either way, since per their doctrine the rich and the poor are equally “dead rebel sinners” and “total haters of God.” Yet, that’s not what Jesus is saying.