Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming...

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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If you view that Jesus has changed that instruction between Luke 12:33 and Luke 22, then how would you reason to yourself in these 3 passages from Acts?

Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Did they not understand what you are saying now, that Luke 22:35-36 canceled the instructions in Luke 12:33?
Look. If “sell all“ means “sell all that you have“ in the most literal sense, then the disciples should have sold their clothes that they were currently wearing and run around naked. So obviously all does not mean all here in the most strictest wooden literalistic sense that you are taking it to mean. In fact, the disciples had a boat when Jesus returned. They should not have a boat if they were to sell all of their possessions. Did Jesus rebuke them for not selling the boat? Also, to sell one’s possessions means one had money from the sale. It does not mean they just gave away their possessions or did not keep some of the money from the sale and give to others as they had need. How could the apostle Paul have a tent business if he was to have sold all his previous possessions and remain poor with no possessions? Was Paul disobeying God? Surely not. What about the believer named Jason? He was said to have owned his own house. Yet, the Scriptures did not condemn him for it. Also, in Luke 10:25-37, how can the Good Samaritan help the poor guy who was left for dead on the road if he had no money? He had oil, wine, a riding animal, and enough money to put this poor guy up in an Inn (To take care of him). Jesus said, go and do likewise. Jesus did not say, sell your riding animals, sell oil, and wine, and get rid of your money and help the poor guy hurt on the side of the road with absolutely no resources.

At Pentecost, many Jews traveled from far away places to Jerusalem and they needed either supplies and or lodging. The believers came together to share that need. But as we learn with Ananias, Peter said that his property was his own to keep. It was voluntary. 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 says, “But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” So it’s not like the Old Covenant where you had to tithe 10% of your harvest or livestock, etcetera. 2 Corinthians 9 is not a mandate. We are to give as God has purposed or called in our heart to give.

Also, consider that the disciples forsaken all that they had (Luke 14:33) (Matthew 19:27-29).
To “forsake” means to “leave” but it does not necessarily mean to “sell.” I can forsake my house to go on vacation for a month or two, but it does not mean I sold my house. So Luke 12:33 as referring to sell all that they currently had while they were with Jesus Christ. Meaning, they were to sell what they currently had on them at that moment while traveling with Jesus and this ties in later with Luke 22:35-36. Note: The other possessions of the disciples back at their homes would have been a good distance away for at least some of them. Selling of property also takes time, too. So you would have to assume that there was a large gap of time of months that took place of the disciples selling off everything they owned before Jesus talked with his disciples next. Nothing in Scripture suggests that they left for a long time and came back to Jesus. In fact, Luke 12:33 is explained in Luke 22:35-36 (of which you fail to grasp). But again…. ZACCHAEUS!!!!!!! What do you do with that? Ignore it? This whole argument by you is refuted just by his situation alone, but you can still keep arguing for a false belief that does not exist.

You criticize Continuationists for suggesting that the word “which” cannot refer to a person in 1 Corinthians 13:10, and I imagine you are frustrated by their non answers or inadequate apologetics on this matter to explain it. I am also frustrated by that. But you are doing the same with ignoring points in Scripture involving Luke 12:33. Zacchaeus is all I need to refute your argument here and yet you are still arguing against all logic and reason. You have to cut out the story of Zacchaeus to make your wrong interpretation on Luke 12:33 work (along with many other verses).

There are many concepts mentioned in Scripture here that causes your wrong belief in Luke 12:33 to self implode that you are not really dealing with involving Scripture.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Every gifts are still available for us today, it's purpose is to grow us "spiritually" to be like our Father in heaven. Some people may not believe in this but that's what I believe. Is Agape Love still existing today I don't know, I know i have not yet possess it.

We need to rethink this issue.

From the Greek - "even sinners love those who love them" is using the root word for God's Love Agape.

I suggest that without God's love even the unsaved would be miserable or cease to exist altogether.

Maybe an issue for another thread...
 
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Carl Emerson

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While I say this with love: I also have a problem with the Charismatic constantly talking about their experiences all the time. Could they be operating by the power of God? Sure, but there really is no way for me to know. But what I can trust is the Bible. If they have experiences only that uplift God’s Word alone and there is no extra biblical stuff going in those experiences, then I may be more inclined to listen.

God's Word is not confined to Scripture, but is revealed through Scripture by God's Grace to those who are given an ear to hear.

Yes the Scripture is our final reference to Truth, but He is active in us direct as John clearly stated.

1 John 2

25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you remain in Him.

And a caution - Jesus said in John 10:35 that the Scripture cannot be broken. So dismissing this scripture is a serious issue.
 
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Carl Emerson

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To those who believe the 'perfect' is the New Testament Scripture, when did this happen. and which translation, in what language?

Did this happen in 1611 ??

Earlier ?

Are any of our translations 'perfect' ???

Which one should I be reading ?

Do folks who speak other languages miss out ?

How does this all work ?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Peter referred to Pauls writing as Scripture...

So the 'Perfect' must have come real early.

Even during the ministry of Peter and Paul they must have lost the gifts.

Strange that the Scripture itself doesn't indicate this happening, Paul seems to continue as a very gifted servant.
 
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Guojing

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In fact, Luke 12:33 is explained in Luke 22:35-36 (of which you fail to grasp). But again…. ZACCHAEUS!!!!!!! What do you do with that? Ignore it? This whole argument by you is refuted just by his situation alone, but you can still keep arguing for a false belief that does not exist.

Alright then, as I have already stated to you from the very beginning here, Zacchaeus's story is the prime example that many people would used to reason to themselves, and I see that you are also using it here.
 
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Guojing

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Every gifts are still available for us today, it's purpose is to grow us "spiritually" to be like our Father in heaven. Some people may not believe in this but that's what I believe. Is Agape Love still existing today I don't know, I know i have not yet possess it.

But 1 Corinthians 13:10 is saying, when the perfect comes, those 3 gifts will fade.

So if you believe in that, you must therefore believe that Agape love does not exist today, in order for you to hold the doctrine that "Every gifts are still available for us today"

Would you agree?
 
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Guojing

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You criticize Continuationists for suggesting that the word “which” cannot refer to a person in 1 Corinthians 13:10, and I imagine you are frustrated by their non answers or inadequate apologetics on this matter to explain it. I am also frustrated by that.

Like I said, I don't engage in Christian discussions trying to get people to change their minds or to show that they are wrong.

No one can do that. People have an amazing ability to reason to themselves all kinds of bible interpretations.

I just want to be clear, how are they doing that. If that is your aim, then you will not be frustrated by any answers they give.
 
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Carl Emerson

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But 1 Corinthians 13:10 is saying, when the perfect comes, those 3 gifts will fade.

So if you believe in that, you must therefore believe that Agape love does not exist today, in order for you to hold the doctrine that "Every gifts are still available for us today"

Would you agree?

The perfect refers to the resurrected life when we are at last free from the sin nature and the curse of the fall. Then we wont need these gifts of the Spirit.

Faith Hope and Love will never cease.
 
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pasifika

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But 1 Corinthians 13:10 is saying, when the perfect comes, those 3 gifts will fade.

So if you believe in that, you must therefore believe that Agape love does not exist today, in order for you to hold the doctrine that "Every gifts are still available for us today"

Would you agree?
Look at this way, the spiritual gifts that fade away is because it reach their appointed purpose whereas the one never fails is because it reach its fullness.

Use Paul example in verse 11..."when I was a child, I talk like a child, thought like a child, reason like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me"...

The spiritual gifts that fades are those that grow you first "spiritually" (child spiritual growth) but when you reach "maturity" (grown man) the gift the never fade comes which is Love. (Like Father like Son)

Gift of Love is the completeness of your spiritual growth, it's for the mature Christians.
 
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Guojing

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The spiritual gifts that fades are those that grow you first "spiritually" (child spiritual growth) but when you reach "maturity" (grown man) the gift the never fade comes which is Love. (Like Father like Son)

So when Agape love reach for any one Christian, he will no longer be able to speak in tongues, prophesy or receive words of wisdom, but others can?

You think that is what 1 Corinthians 13:10 is saying?
 
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Guojing

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The perfect refers to the resurrected life when we are at last free from the sin nature and the curse of the fall. Then we wont need these gifts of the Spirit.

Faith Hope and Love will never cease.

What do you still need to hope for, after you are living the resurrected life and free from the sin nature?

Can you provide some examples?
 
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pasifika

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Are you suggesting that mature believers don't need the gifts of the Spirit ??
Love is the embodiment of all spirtual gifts. Spiritual gifts reach its fullness which is Love.
( or Child reach maturity)
 
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pasifika

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So when Agape love reach for any one Christian, he will no longer be able to speak in tongues, prophesy or receive words of wisdom, but others can?

You think that is what 1 Corinthians 13:10 is saying?
You can do all things, because you're a Son of the Most High. Things that belongs to God belongs to you (Heir of the Kingdom).
 
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Carl Emerson

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What do you still need to hope for, after you are living the resurrected life and free from the sin nature?

Can you provide some examples?

Yes... I think we underestimate the Glorious nature of the next life - learning more and more about Him and His awesome acts. This is an eternal process in which our hopeful expectation is continually met. We know little of what He has created already let alone the New Heavens and New Earth. Mind blowing, exciting, for ever and ever.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Love is the embodiment of all spirtual gifts. Spiritual gifts reach its fullness which is Love.
( or Child reach maturity)

Am I hearing you say then that all the gift's continue ? until when ?
 
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Guojing

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Yes... I think we underestimate the Glorious nature of the next life - learning more and more about Him and His awesome acts. This is an eternal process in which our hopeful expectation is continually met. We know little of what He has created already let alone the New Heavens and New Earth. Mind blowing, exciting, for ever and ever.

You prefer to give vague answers?

Alright then.
 
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pasifika

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So what does 1 Corinthians 13:10 means to you exactly?
When you first started "spiritual growth" you don't possess all spiritual gifts but "part" ie you might have gift of wisdom, another might have faith etc (see chapter 12). This is "part" not "complete". (Spirit distribute each gifts just as He determines.)

But when you receive the gift of Love there is no more "part" but "complete" spiritual gifts. I.e All gifts in your possession (wisdom, faith, knowledge, power, prophecy etc)
 
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