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Eternal Damnation, Conditional Immortality, or Universal Reconciliation: A CF poll

Which position do you hold?

  • Eternal Damnation

    Votes: 26 41.9%
  • Conditional Immortality

    Votes: 17 27.4%
  • Universal Reconciliation

    Votes: 13 21.0%
  • Agnostic

    Votes: 11 17.7%

  • Total voters
    62

Der Alte

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Jas_2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Rev_2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev_2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
 
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Andrewn

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The (Judean) Land Beast with its lying, two-horned Pharisee / Sadducee power structure had compelled their own people to give homage to the (Roman) Sea Beast by means of the Land Beast's own minted copy of the Tyrian shekel with its abominable pagan images and inscriptions.
Do you believe this is what is referred to in Rev 14:9-11? But then, what do the words "forever and ever" mean? Is it poetic language (the corresponding Isa 34:10 probably is poetic language) or a view of everlasting hell?
 
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Do you believe this is what is referred to in Rev 14:9-11? But then, what do the words "forever and ever" mean? Is it poetic language (the corresponding Isa 34:10 probably is poetic language) or a view of everlasting hell?
Yes, I do consider that the Rev. 14:9-11 mark and image of the Sea Beast (imposed by the Judean Land Beast upon their own people) is the very same mark and image discussed earlier in Revelation 13. That mark and image of the abominable, required Tyrian shekel coin was imposed by the priesthood on those in Judea from 19 BC until AD 66. That was the time when the Zealot rebellion finally cast off their Roman governance and started minting their own currency of an independent nation of Israel, dated "Year one of the redemption of Zion".

The "no rest day nor night" of those who gave homage to the Sea Beast indicates a normal world with its normal cycles of day and night continuing in this scenario. This is NOT the supposed everlasting "Hell" environment of flaming torment in an afterlife for the wicked being pictured, because the Lamb Himself is there in the eyesight and in the very presence of these who were being tormented (Rev. 14:10) . This torment was also going on even at a time when Christ was on earth among the Jews who were being compelled by the priests to use this Tyrian shekel for temple transactions.

And yes, I do think that the same poetic language of "forever and ever" in Isaiah 34:10 is on a par with the "forever and ever" smoking torment of these tormented ones in Revelation 14:9-11. They were being continuously tormented by the onerous requirement to use that Tyrian shekel which gave homage to the pagan city of Tyre, to the demi-god Herakles on the front side of that coin, and to the power of the Romans who authorized minting that coin and who held power over the priesthood in Israel.

The Jews were well aware that this requirement to use those Tyrian shekel coins with abominable images and inscriptions on them was strictly forbidden back in the OT in Deuteronomy 7:25-26. To be forced by their own priesthood to disobey God's laws (on pain of being cast out of the synagogue) by this requirement of giving homage to the gods of the Roman Sea Beast which was holding their nation under control - this must surely have been a constant irritation to any thinking man in Israel during those years from 19 BC until AD 66 when the requirement ceased.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes, I do consider that the Rev. 14:9-11 mark and image of the Sea Beast (imposed by the Judean Land Beast upon their own people) is the very same mark and image discussed earlier in Revelation 13. That mark and image of the abominable, required Tyrian shekel coin was imposed by the priesthood on those in Judea from 19 BC until AD 66. That was the time when the Zealot rebellion finally cast off their Roman governance and started minting their own currency of an independent nation of Israel, dated "Year one of the redemption of Zion".

The "no rest day nor night" of those who gave homage to the Sea Beast indicates a normal world with its normal cycles of day and night continuing in this scenario. This is NOT the supposed everlasting "Hell" environment of flaming torment in an afterlife for the wicked being pictured, because the Lamb Himself is there in the eyesight and in the very presence of these who were being tormented (Rev. 14:10) . This torment was also going on even at a time when Christ was on earth among the Jews who were being compelled by the priests to use this Tyrian shekel for temple transactions.

And yes, I do think that the same poetic language of "forever and ever" in Isaiah 34:10 is on a par with the "forever and ever" smoking torment of these tormented ones in Revelation 14:9-11. They were being continuously tormented by the onerous requirement to use that Tyrian shekel which gave homage to the pagan city of Tyre, to the demi-god Herakles on the front side of that coin, and to the power of the Romans who authorized minting that coin and who held power over the priesthood in Israel.

The Jews were well aware that this requirement to use those Tyrian shekel coins with abominable images and inscriptions on them was strictly forbidden back in the OT in Deuteronomy 7:25-26. To be forced by their own priesthood to disobey God's laws (on pain of being cast out of the synagogue) by this requirement of giving homage to the gods of the Roman Sea Beast which was holding their nation under control - this must surely have been a constant irritation to any thinking
man in Israel during those years from 19 BC until AD 66 when the requirement ceased.
Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical etc, evidence for any of these claims?
 
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Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical etc, evidence for any of these claims?
Try this link below for starters, Der Alte. There is more digging I have done into the numismatics for this first century, and for the times we see this Tyrian shekel appearing in scripture.

 
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Here's another link about the Tyrian shekel coin history...hope I have it correct. If that link somehow doesn't work, perhaps one could Google the title of the article "Phoenician coins - Coins of the Bible: Shekel of Tyre


There is a reason why this particular Tyrian shekel coin was so offensive to God. Having the inscription of "Tyre the holy and city of refuge" was disgusting for a city from which the wicked Queen Jezebel originated; the queen who had so many of God's prophets killed, and who was responsible for encouraging child sacrifice for Baal among the Israelites. Tyre was also the home turf for the "King of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 - the anointed cherub Satan who was working behind the scenes of the city of Tyre's human king of Tyre to spread deception and evil from that city. So for the Tyrian shekel to celebrate that evil city and call it "holy" and "a city of refuge" was an affront to a holy God.

In addition, the image of the demi-god Herakles / Hercules was also an insult to God who had once had to deal with the sons of God having children by the daughters of men and producing hybrid creatures that grew into giants. The flood in Noah's day was necessary to wipe out this corruption of humanity's descendants. For the Tyrian shekel to have an image commemorating one of these hybrid half-man-half-god creatures was a slap in God's face. Especially when God's own priesthood was requiring this shekel for temple transactions and for the annual Temple tax. It was not a stretch to call this Tyrian shekel "abominable".
 
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Der Alte

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Try this link below for starters, Der Alte. There is more digging I have done into the numismatics for this first century, and for the times we see this Tyrian shekel appearing in scripture.

Doesn't help much. This link does not identify the source. Just one page with a lot of info. What institution produced this page? Are they credible? I looked up Tyre in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. It does not mention any Tyrian shekel.
 
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Der Alte

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404 Not found!
Sorry, don't know why that doesn't go through. It's still online when you Google "Tyrian shekel coin" though.

The link changed slightly from my printout 3 years ago to the following:

www.bible.ca/coins/Jesus-coins-of-the-bible-Phoenician-Tyre-Tyrian-Shekel-official-sanctuary-Temple-tax-Peters-fish-money-changers-Judas-30-silver-pieces.htm

If that one still doesn't work, you'll just have to search through the www.bible.ca/coins link and click on their specific article about the Tyrian shekel under the #9 section called "New Testament coins Jesus used every day". And for a souvenir, one can go online and purchase this "Mark of the Beast" Tyrian shekel coin if you want to keep one in your pocket for show and tell :- /
 
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Der Alte

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Sorry, don't know why that doesn't go through. It's still online when you Google "Tyrian shekel coin" though.
The link changed slightly from my printout 3 years ago to the following:
www.bible.ca/coins/Jesus-coins-of-the-bible-Phoenician-Tyre-Tyrian-Shekel-official-sanctuary-Temple-tax-Peters-fish-money-changers-Judas-30-silver-pieces.htm
If that one still doesn't work, you'll just have to search through the www.bible.ca/coins link and click on their specific article about the Tyrian shekel under the #9 section called "New Testament coins Jesus used every day". And for a souvenir, one can go online and purchase this "Mark of the Beast" Tyrian shekel coin if you want to keep one in your pocket for show and tell :- /
1683310580328.png

Copied from Bible.ca website.
 
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1683310580328.png

Copied from Bible.ca website.
Yes, that's one of the pictures from the article. What this one picture above shows is the reverse side of the mark of the Beast, forced upon the temple worshippers in Jerusalem for about 85 years until AD 66.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Danger, danger, Will Robinson... Annihilationism is a gateway drug to full blown UR. - LOL
I am sure it is a joke, but I am a Conditionalist and I have zero interest in UR.
In fact, I consider UR to be exceptionally unbibical that is likened to Liberalism.
Again, I mean no offense to anyone who is UR here. It’s just how I feel on the topic.
In fact, I will not debate UR with any UR Christians because it is beyond silly.
I would rather debate flat Earthers (And that belief is really far out there).
 
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Conditional immortality?

 
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Me personally.....
I dont worry about matters that lead to opinions. Or questionable things. I endeavor to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.
As long as i trust in Christ,grow in the Spirit and in wisdom,knowing iam a child of the king and will be rewarded with eternal life, let everything else fall by the wayside.
God bless
I believe it is important topic or truth to tell others because some folks do get hung up on ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) as being a problem. It’s not as common, but it is a problem for various people. Some have experienced anxiety attacks because of ECT. Hell houses are also promoted in churches, as well. This to me is not how things should be.

I believe the Bible teaches there is a real literal hell, but that the Lake of Fire is a place where the wicked will be erased or annihilated eventually from existence. This is Dualistic Conditional Immortality.
 
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Not to get too deep in the weeds,but scripture points out that hell itself will be thrown into the lake of fire. And then too,you cant burn a spirit with a kitchen match.
Hell cant be the lake of fire,because its called outer darkness. A fire would sure light up the room.
Lol. I know this wasnt the direction you wanted this to take. I just like talking bible.
God bless
I believe the Greek word “Gehenna” is in reference to the Lake of Fire. So sometimes when we see “hell” in the Bible it can be in reference to “hades” the abode of the dead, and other times the English word “hell” can be in reference to the Lake of Fire (Gehenna). Sometimes the fire is called Gehenna fire (Which is the fire from the Lake of Fire). Context helps to determine this, as well.

As for outer darkness: Well, I see that as a separate place or compartment for unfaithful believers (Based on the appearance of that word in Scripture). Outer darkness would be a different place than the place of torments (Hades) the rich man went to. Scripture does not say whether this outer darkness is a part of hell or not. It could be.

As for Revelation 20:14: This is a great verse in defense for Conditional Immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. I see “death” as possibly being Satan according to Hebrews 2:14. Revelation 21:8 says the Lake of Fire is called the “second DEATH” (Which is related to the first death). But if death is the last enemy to be destroyed, then that means that previous enemies of God will be destroyed before death is gone (destroyed). Revelation 20:14 says death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. So this means that the Lake of Fire is the the place or end for both hell (Hades, i.e. the wicked) and death (Satan).
 
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Unfaithul believers???? Hmmmm. I believe all believers enter heaven.
But then,some believe in different rewards. So who knows.
God bless

Outer darkness is mentioned three times in Scripture.
Two out of three of those times it is clear that this is in reference to believers not being faithful.

Matthew 22:13
“Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 25:30
“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

In Matthew 22:13, we learn that this is from the “Parable of the Marriage of the King’s Son.” (Matthew 22:1-14).

In Matthew 25:30, we learn that this is from the ”Parable of the Talents.” (Matthew 25:14-30).

In the Parable of the Marriage of the King’s Son, we can see that this is in reference to Gentile believers (i.e., Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. - Matthew 22:9). When they came to the wedding of the King’s Son (i.e., the wedding of Jesus Christ to His bride, the church), both good and bad were invited to the wedding. One person at the wedding did not have on a wedding garment. They were told to be bound hand and foot and cast away into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Gnashing of teeth is what wolves do. When you see a wolf showing its teeth when it growls, this is the picture of one gnashing their teeth in anger (no doubt in anger at God). So what is this wedding garment?

Revelation 19:8
”And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright,
for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.”

Revelation 19:9
”Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!”

This is the King’s Son. Jesus. The Lamb is the King’s Son In the parable.
Those Gentile believers invited to the wedding who did not have righteous acts in being a saint will be bound and foot and cast into outer darkness (Where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth). The righteous acts is the wedding garment that they did not have on.

Matthew 25:30 is similar in that the unfaithful believer (unprofitable servant) is cast into outer darkness. First, the unprofitable servant is just as much a servant in the parable as the other faithful servants because he is still called a servant. Except the other servants are told that they can enter the Kingdom (because of their faithfulness). Second, the unprofitable servant was not told to enter the Kingdom but he is told to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. This is a separate compartment or place either in the realm of hell (that is not the place or compartment the rich man went to in Luke 16), or it is an outer darkness totally separate from hell (Hades). But in either case, outer darkness is clearly tied to unprofitable servants of God or a wedding guest that was not faithful by having on a wedding garment. Some Christians have said “outer darkness” is some kind of purgatory in Heaven or God’s Kingdom. But there is no biblical grounds for this kind of thinking. Their fate is weeping and gnashing of teeth in this place, and they are never said to get out of it. Granted, I believe those unfaithful believers in outer darkness will eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire (after the Judgment). For Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS Kingdom all who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire). Remember, in Matthew 25:31-46 (Parable of the Sheep & Goats): Jesus is going to separate the sheep from the goats. This is Jesus separating faithful believers from unfaithful believers because one group of believers (With both groups calling Him, “Lord”) was told to go away into everlasting punishment (i.e., punishment with everlasting consequences) because they did not help the poor etc. in this life.
 
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returntosender

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happy Sabbath!
 
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happy Sabbath!
Thank you. I see our Sabbath rest as only being applicable as “Christ being our rest now,” and it is not about celebrating a specific day or days anymore (like in the Old Testament). Colossians 2:16 says we are not to let others judge us in regards to the Sabbaths. Acts 15 makes it clear that Gentile Christians are not under the Laws of Moses or circumcision, etcetera. Acts 13:39 says we cannot be justified by the Laws of Moses. So I see the OT Sabbath as a shadow or type pointing to Jesus Christ now. Granted, we do have to live holy as a part of the Sanctification Process of the Spirit (After we are saved by God’s grace), but this is obedience to the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers and not by Moses. For the Law came by Moses, and grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
 
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I am sure it is a joke, but I am a Conditionalist and I have zero interest in UR.
In fact, I consider UR to be exceptionally unbibical that is likened to Liberalism.
Again, I mean no offense to anyone who is UR here. It’s just how I feel on the topic.
In fact, I will not debate UR with any UR Christians because it is beyond silly.
I would rather debate flat Earthers (And that belief is really far out there).
i feel the same way when it comes to UR... i honestly think that those who say they're UR and also claim to be evangelical in their approach are contradicting themselves. how can Jesus be the only way when one doesnt have to do anything in order to be saved if they're going to be saved eventually, regardless of what they do?
and when you look at the differences between CI, ECT, and UR, ECT and UR both teach the same thing when it comes to immortality:
both doctrines teach that both the righteous and the wicked receive the same gift: immortality.
CI is completely different from that perspective. it is the only perspective that actually echoes exactly what Jesus, John, and Paul say about immortality in John 3:16, John 3:36. John 11:24, and Romans 6:23... and that's what convinced me about CI... it had nothing to do with the "unquenchable fire" or "eternal destruction" or "everlasting punishment", it had to do with if the Bible uses the phrase "immortal soul" or "immortality of the soul"... couldn't find it.
I actually was once a dualist like you, but that changed when i listened to Tim Warner's 24(6?) part seminar on the use of the word soul and spirit in the Old and New Testaments. he has something almost as long on his youtube channel in the Berean Bible Institute
 
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