Is Sola Scriptura Self-refuting?

[bbbbbbb]

There is nothing improper about a married couple engaging in sex for its own sake, with or without the desire to have more children. Statements like "contraception has no function but to facilitate lust" must necessarily lead to it's logical conclusion: that sex is sin unless motivated by the desire to procreate.

Perish the thought that humans should be able to engage in any pleasurable activity. There is nothing more selfish than pleasure, therefore God, being entirely desirous of creating godliness in man by replacing man's self-focused nature with a God-centered nature, must perforce excoriate all forms of human pleasure.

 

[concretecamper]

There is nothing improper about a married couple engaging in sex for its own sake, with or without the desire to have more children. Statements like "contraception has no function but to facilitate lust" must necessarily lead to it's logical conclusion: that sex is sin unless motivated by the desire to procreate.

Contraception mentality does facilitate lust. It also facilitates homosexuality and abortion.

And yes, rightly ordered, a Married couple can and should engage in sex because of love. But if they engage in sex get to get their rocks off, well that's what society says is ok.

 

[concretecamper]

Perish the thought that humans should be able to engage in any pleasurable activity. There is nothing more selfish than pleasure, therefore God, being entirely desirous of creating godliness in man by replacing man's self-focused nature with a God-centered nature, must perforce excoriate all forms of human pleasure.

As usual, your comments miss the mark entirely.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Perish the thought that humans should be able to engage in any pleasurable activity. There is nothing more selfish than pleasure, therefore God, being entirely desirous of creating godliness in man by replacing man's self-focused nature with a God-centered nature, must perforce excoriate all forms of human pleasure.

What you don’t understand is that we dare not be ruled by pleasure. Our feelings can be manipulated. We can be made to feel good in evil and have an aversion to good, if we rely on feelings only. Marriage is not a man and a woman deciding to become sex partners and accidentally having a family. That is not the proper order. A marriage is a man and a woman deciding to start a family and enjoying the pleasure of their union. If you don’t want a family then you have no business having sex, their is no purpose to it.
Someone once said love is like the number Pi, irrational and never ending. No that describes lust, the appetite that is never full. True love is completely rational as one maintains reason.
You may say that I have never been in love or know what lust is. You could not be more wrong. I have experienced both. Lust is outside the grace of God, and leads to no good. Love is rational and sacrificial and sometimes causes pain rather than pleasure, but if endured produces true happiness

 

[dms1972]

Quote from Louis Bouyer's book the Spirit and Forms of Protestantism

"...in Luther's experience which set the pattern for the whole of Protestantism, the Biblical principle came to be adopted reflexively; his primary discovery was the sola gratia, sola fide, to which he was impelled by his reading of the epistle to the Romans. In other words, what first struck him was his insight into a great truth of religion; then subsequently, the means whereby this truth struck him became clear to him, and so compelled him to assign it a place of fundamental significance."

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Quote from Louis Bouyer's book the Spirit and Forms of Protestantism

"...in Luther's experience which set the pattern for the whole of Protestantism, the Biblical principle came to be adopted reflexively; his primary discovery was the sola gratia, sola fide, to which he was impelled by his reading of the epistle to the Romans. In other words, what first struck him was his insight into a great truth of religion; then subsequently, the means whereby this truth struck him became clear to him, and so compelled him to assign it a place of fundamental significance."

Yet this alleged truth did not strike all of Christianity for 1500 years. Could it be a new doctrine from a deceiving spirit? Luther had to insert the word alone into Romans where it does not appear in the text, and he had to nullify the Epistle of James and the first letter to the Corinthians to make his case. Strange way to come to sola scriptura by ignoring and manipulating scripture

 

[dms1972]

Yet this alleged truth did not strike all of Christianity for 1500 years. Could it be a new doctrine from a deceiving spirit? Luther had to insert the word alone into Romans where it does not appear in the text, and he had to nullify the Epistle of James and the first letter to the Corinthians to make his case. Strange way to come to sola scriptura by ignoring and manipulating scripture

What is your understanding of faith and works?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

What is your understanding of faith and works?

when we are born again through repentance and baptism as commanded by Our Lord (We must be born of water and the spirit), we are given the gift of the three theological virtues, Faith, Hope and Charity. Faith to know that God IS, and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him, Hope to believe in His faithfulness that He will complete His work in us as He promised to cleanse us of all unrighteousness, and Charity to love God and diligently seek ways to please Him which is to obey His commandments. These virtues come from God alone and by God alone, as He knows those that are His. Once we have these virtues, we are babes in Christ, and as children need to be trained, so too we need training in righteousness. The first three heavenly virtues come from God alone, but the remaining four need to be perfected by practice. The four cardinal virtues are Justice, Prudence, Temperance, and Fortitude. The basic way to achieve these are with prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. With prayer comes study that teaches us prudence or knowing what is right, fasting teaches us temperance in controlling our desire to please our flesh and bringing it under control of the will through reason, almsgiving teaches us justice in that we are not the only soul in the world and God wants us to give to His other children as we would give to God Himself. Fortitude is learned in the company of other believers that encourage one another, as the word of God says, do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together as the manner of some is.
A pagan can learn the four cardinal virtues through human effort. We witness this from practitioners of the martial arts or other disciplined groups, but without the virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity, they do a soul no good, nor do they merit a reward before God. A Christian can have faith, hope and charity, yet not pursue the other virtues and remain a babe in Christ. As we know from the natural order, babies are cute and fun, but a forty year old baby is annoying and of use to no one.
In summary, justification comes from God alone, through repentance and obedience, but if we do not put our faith into practice, what good are we? Jesus says we are the salt of the Earth, but what good is salt if it has lost its savor? Also, not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that DO the will of my Father in heaven

 

[dms1972]

Justification comes from God alone, but Catholics understand Justification as a progressive thing? One can increase in one's justification, its but God doesn't declare one just until one is really just?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Justification comes from God alone, but Catholics understand Justification as a progressive thing? One can increase in one's justification, its not a declaration until one is actually just?

That is my understanding. There is absolutely no possibility that a member of the Catholic Church can be in the least bit certain that they will be saved and enter into the joy of heaven.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Justification comes from God alone, but Catholics understand Justification as a progressive thing? One can increase in one's justification, its but God doesn't declare one just until one is really just?

Justification comes from God alone and He will make you just if you let Him, just as He promised.
That is the hope that we have. If one lacks virtue then ask God and He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
What He will not do is declare a man just who refuses to repent. We do not simply say Jesus Jesus. Faith without works is dead. God is not the God of the dead but the living.
The word of God tells us to submit to all authority instituted among men, because all authority is from God. He did not establish a band of rebels, but obedient servants. Even Peter and the Apostles did not advocate the overthrow of the Sanhedrin. They patiently pleaded with them for repentance.
In my arrogance, I thought I knew more and understand the Bible better and thought of myself as saved, yet I still sinned mortally, but I thought I was still saved because of the alleged faith that I had. It was not until I humbled myself and submitted to Apostolic authority that the sin that so easily beset me was gone. I received the grace of God as He promised and I will never look back. What stops anyone from submitting to the Apostles, except for pride and rebellion? Jesus want us to follow His commands and submit to His Church

 

[zippy2006]

That is my understanding. There is absolutely no possibility that a member of the Catholic Church can be in the least bit certain that they will be saved and enter into the joy of heaven.

Perhaps this will help to rectify your understanding:

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10), “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20), “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).​

​

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, “It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (1:7).​

​

Assurance of Salvation?

How should a Catholic answer the question, "Have you been saved?" We explain what the Church teaches on this crucial topic.

www.catholic.com

 

[bbbbbbb]

Perhaps this will help to rectify your understanding:

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10), “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20), “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).​

​

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, “It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (1:7).​

​

Assurance of Salvation?

How should a Catholic answer the question, "Have you been saved?" We explain what the Church teaches on this crucial topic.

www.catholic.com

Thank you. Catholics can, indeed, have an assurance of the forgiveness of their sins, but (at least here at CF) they reject OSAS, believing that a Catholic can commit a mortal sin and end up in hell.

 

[zippy2006]

Thank you. Catholics can, indeed, have an assurance of the forgiveness of their sins, but (at least here at CF) they reject OSAS, believing that a Catholic can commit a mortal sin and end up in hell.

You're welcome. The reason Catholics can have an imperfect certitude is because they can know when they have committed a mortal sin, when they have received the grace of forgiveness in confession, etc. As with the question of the liceity of pleasure, the question of certitude has historically plagued Protestants more than Catholics. Incidentally, there was a set of blog posts where Alvin Kimel looked at this from different perspectives. The discussion begins at post XIX, which was written in January of 2006 (link).

So Catholicism does reject OSAS, but the rejection of OSAS does not entail that one "[cannot] be in the least bit certain."

 

[bbbbbbb]

You're welcome. The reason Catholics can have an imperfect certitude is because they can know when they have committed a mortal sin, when they have received the grace of forgiveness in confession, etc. As with the question of the liceity of pleasure, the question of certitude has historically plagued Protestants more than Catholics. Incidentally, there was a set of blog posts where Alvin Kimel looked at this from different perspectives. The discussion begins at post XIX, which was written in January of 2006 (link).

So Catholicism does reject OSAS, but the rejection of OSAS does not entail that one "[cannot] be in the least bit certain."

There are multitudes of baptized Catholics who routinely commit the mortal sin of skipping mass. They don't seem to have much, if any, concern about it. However, on the positive side, they are not fretting much about their assurance of salvation either.

 

[zippy2006]

There are multitudes of baptized Catholics who routinely commit the mortal sin of skipping mass. They don't seem to have much, if any, concern about it. However, on the positive side, they are not fretting much about their assurance of salvation either.

...okay...? I'm not sure how this is related.

 

[bbbbbbb]

...okay...? I'm not sure how this is related.

It is merely related to the concept of certainty regarding salvation. For many Protestants, as you rightly pointed out, this is a serious issue. I think, however, that for the majority of Protestant as well as Catholic church members, it is hardly anything they give much, if any, thought to. Most are of the firm opinion that, having been baptized, and having joined their respective churches, they have done all that needs to be done.

 

[zippy2006]

It is merely related to the concept of certainty regarding salvation. For many Protestants, as you rightly pointed out, this is a serious issue. I think, however, that for the majority of Protestant as well as Catholic church members, it is hardly anything they give much, if any, thought to. Most are of the firm opinion that, having been baptized, and having joined their respective churches, they have done all that needs to be done.

Well, if our conversation is an indication of larger realities, then there are some substantial ways that Catholics and Protestants are talking past one another. For me, the doctrine of mortal sin augments our level of certitude because it gives us an additional and concrete way to know where we are headed. But for Protestants who believe in OSAS, the doctrine of mortal sin apparently diminishes certitude because it introduces the possibility of damnation after justification. The relation of the doctrine of mortal sin to certitude differs depending on where you are coming from.

On the other hand, the conundrum for the Protestant has always been salvation, not perseverance. That is, they tend to agree together that once one is saved, they will always persevere, but there is very often a subjective uncertainty about whether I am saved. The Catholic's position is the exact opposite: they know with perfect certainty that they have been baptized and have received saving grace, but they do not know whether they will persevere.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, if our conversation is an indication of larger realities, then there are some substantial ways that Catholics and Protestants are talking past one another. For me, the doctrine of mortal sin augments our level of certitude because it gives us an additional and concrete way to know where we are headed. But for Protestants who believe in OSAS, the doctrine of mortal sin apparently diminishes certitude because it introduces the possibility of damnation after justification. The relation of the doctrine of mortal sin to certitude differs depending on where you are coming from.

On the other hand, the conundrum for the Protestant has always been salvation, not perseverance. That is, they tend to agree together that once one is saved, they will always persevere, but there is very often a subjective uncertainty about whether I am saved. The Catholic's position is the exact opposite: they know with perfect certainty that they have been baptized and have received saving grace, but they do not know whether they will persevere.

I agree that Protestants and Catholics tend to talk past each other on this issue. As a Protestant I would not stereotype all Protestants as believing in OSAS. There are many Protestant denominations which firmly reject it and adhere as firmly to synergism as does any Catholic. There are also the Lutherans, who reject Calvin's understanding of monergism, while embracing Luther's understanding of Augustinian monergism. Many Lutherans are, at best, uncomfortable with OSAS, and outright reject it as taught and believed within other Protestant denominations. Lutheran soteriology, IMO, is surprisingly rich and nuanced.

 

[zippy2006]

I agree that Protestants and Catholics tend to talk past each other on this issue. As a Protestant I would not stereotype all Protestants as believing in OSAS. There are many Protestant denominations which firmly reject it and adhere as firmly to synergism as does any Catholic. There are also the Lutherans, who reject Calvin's understanding of monergism, while embracing Luther's understanding of Augustinian monergism. Many Lutherans are, at best, uncomfortable with OSAS, and outright reject it as taught and believed within other Protestant denominations. Lutheran soteriology, IMO, is surprisingly rich and nuanced.

Oh sure, I understand that. Actually that set of blog posts from Kimel covers a few of the different Protestant positions. My phrasing was ambiguous. I meant to refer to "[that subset] of Protestants who believe in OSAS..." rather than, "Protestants who [all] believe in OSAS..."

...Or perhaps I was just misrepresenting some of the more nuanced views, such as the Lutheran view. Do Lutherans deny perseverance? I was under the impression that they affirm it in a rather complex way. I was under the impression that they accept some form of perseverance but deny the theology behind what is now popularly referred to as OSAS.