Why the weekly Sabbath (Saturday) is the Lord's Day, in the Bible

[BobRyan]

Not at all. If we acknowledge the church's ability to evaluate what is scripture and what isn't, it makes sense to also lend some weight to their decision to use the first day of the week as the primary day of worship.

I already addressed that one here

No doubt "tradition instead of the Bible" goes back a long way.

Mark 7:7-13
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Then have you simply given up on finding anything from the Bible that fits your speculation that "Lord's day" in Rev 1:10 is a reference to weekly week-day-1 devoted-to-worship practice??


Well if you notice carefully on this thread - each person responds for themselves. And they are being asked questions like "in your POV".

THE thread is not positioned as "list all the traditions you are aware of" or "what traditions do you use to tell you what to believe".

The point remains as stated there. If you would like to address it -- go ahead.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

My point remains in this case - that "in the Bible" the Lord's Day is the weekly Sabbath.

That makes sense in English. In the original language, not so much.

Already addressed in the OP -- consider reading it.

In the Bible the weekly Sabbath is Saturday - the 7th day of the week. From Friday Evening to Saturday evening.

So it is no wonder that when the gospels say that Jesus was raised on the first day of the week - everyone knows that this means our Sunday. This is easy and obvious.

The Catholic Church document "the Faith Explained" asks the question about "changing the LORD's day from Saturday to Sunday" like this -

1965 -- first published 1959 (from "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese page 243)

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...​

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"​

I fully agree with - "in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it."

I fully agree with - "nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday"

Some will say "I don't care what the Catholic position is" but this idea of a "Change" for the Bible Sabbath from Saturday (the 7th day) to the first day is also mentioned in the Baptist Confession of Faith and in other denominational documents across the board.

Why then are they so clear on the fact that the Sabbath is the Lord's Day - and that a change was made via some sort of tradition - but not mentioned in the Bible.?

Is 58:13
“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

Mark 2:27 "The Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath"

Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross and in the New Earth - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

So no wonder in Acts 18:4 EVERY Sabbath they gather for gospel preaching in the synagogue - as Paul preached to both gentiles and Jews
No wonder in Acts 13 the GENTILES ask for MORE Gospel preaching to be scheduled for "The NEXT Sabbath" and then the next Sabbath almost the entire town shows up to hear it.

All Bible scholars know the following -
1. There is no text saying 'the first day of the week is the Lord's day"
2. There is no text saying 'the first day of the week is the holy day of the Lord"
3. There is no text saying 'the first day of the week is My holy day"
4. There is no text saying "every week day one they gathered for gospel preaching"
5. There is no text saying "the Son of Man is LORD of week day 1"
6. There is no text saying "week day one is now the Sabbath of the LORD thy God" or "is now the Lord's day"
7. There is no text says "the gentiles asked that more Gospel preaching be given to them - on the next week day 1"

Some will say "well that just adds more weight to the Catholic Document quoted above stating that there is nothing in the Bible on that point". And of course that is true it does add weight to that part of their statement.

==========================================

"They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appears, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, say they, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments."

—Augsburg Confession of Faith, Art. 28, par. 9.


"They [Roman Catholics] allege the change of the Sabbath into the Lord's day, as it seemeth, to the Decalogue [the ten commandments]; and they have no example more in their mouths than they change of the Sabbath. They will needs have the Church's power to be very great, because it hath dispensed with the precept of the Decalogue."

—The Augsburg Confession, 1530 A.D. (Lutheran), part 2, art 7, in Philip Schaff, the Creeds of Christiandom, 4th Edition, vol 3, p64 [this important statement was made by the Lutherans and written by Melanchthon, only thirteen years after Luther nailed his theses to the door and began the Reformation].

 

[BobRyan]

Since the phrase occurs only once in the traditional Bible, it's speculation as to what it means.

Consider reading the OP - there we have actual scripture on the subject.

You keep circling back to the answers already given in the first three posts of page 1 -- as if you have not read them.

 

[BobRyan]

No doubt "tradition instead of the Bible" goes back a long way.

I'm not saying use tradition instead of the Bible.

And yet you circled back to it here --

Not at all. If we acknowledge the church's ability to evaluate what is scripture and what isn't, it makes sense to also lend some weight to their decision to use the first day of the week as the primary day of worship.

 

[BobRyan]

1John3:4 Sin is lawlessness.

NKJ Matt. 7:23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
NKJ Matt. 13:41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

Same thing as "Sin is transgression of the Law"

KJ21 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.
AMP Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness [ignoring God’s law by action or neglect or by tolerating wrongdoing—being unrestrained by His commands and His will].
AMPC Everyone who commits (practices) sin is guilty of lawlessness; for [that is what] sin is, lawlessness (the breaking, violating of God’s law by transgression or neglect—being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will).
BRG Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
CJB Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah — indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
CEV Everyone who sins breaks God’s law, because sin is the same as breaking God’s law.
ERV Anyone who sins breaks God’s law. Yes, sinning is the same as living against God’s law.
EXB The person [L Everyone] who ·sins [commits sin] ·breaks God’s law [commits lawlessness/iniquity; C referring to the false teachers; 2:19–20]. Yes, sin is ·living against God’s law [lawlessness; iniquity].
GNV Whosoever commiteth sin, transgresseth also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law.
GW Those who live sinful lives are disobeying God. Sin is disobedience. (to what? -- Law)
GNT Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law.
HCSB Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law.
ICB When a person sins, he breaks God’s law. Yes, sinning is the same as living against God’s law.
ISV Everyone who keeps living in sin also practices disobedience. In fact, sin is disobedience.
PHILLIPS Everyone who commits sin breaks God’s law, for that is what sin is, by definition—a breaking of God’s law. You know, moreover, that Christ became man for the purpose of removing sin, and he himself was quite free from sin. The man who lives “in Christ” does not habitually sin. The regular sinner has never seen or known him.
KJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
AKJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
NIRV Everyone who sins breaks the law. In fact, breaking the law is sin.
NLVThe person who keeps on sinning is guilty of not obeying the Law of God. For sin is breaking the Law of God.
NLT Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.
OJB Everyone practicing chet also does averah, and chet is averah al HaTorah.
TPT Anyone who indulges in sin lives in moral anarchy, for the definition of sin is breaking God’s law.
RGT Whoever commits sin, also transgresses the Law. For sin is the transgression of the Law.
WE Everyone who does wrong things is breaking God's law. Doing wrong things is breaking the law.

=======================

My point is not that "transgression of the Law" is not "Breaking the Law" and is not also "Lawlessness"

And in context - 1 John 5:3 reminds us that his context for the term is "God's Commandments" -- "This IS the Love of God that we keep His Commandments"

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
Is that what you see Christ doing in Mark 7:6-13??

I think Jesus observed what the scribes and Pharisees taught regarding what was scripture. That is to say, the tradition in place at the time.

So No, he didn't do the equivalent of denying the authority of the church.

read the post please. If you have a way to spin the statement in Mark 7 as Christ in full agreement with their tradition -- show us how that bit of gymnastics is done.

BobRyan said:
No doubt "tradition instead of the Bible" goes back a long way.

Mark 7:7-13
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Then have you simply given up on finding anything from the Bible that fits your speculation that "Lord's day" in Rev 1:10 is a reference to weekly week-day-1 devoted-to-worship practice??


Well if you notice carefully on this thread - each person responds for themselves. And they are being asked questions like "in your POV".

THE thread is not positioned as "list all the traditions you are aware of" or "what traditions do you use to tell you what to believe".



No doubt I used my brain to decide things like buying and reading a Bible.

My point remains in this case - that "in the Bible" the Lord's Day is the weekly Sabbath

 

[BobRyan]

duplicate

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Same thing as "Sin is transgression of the Law"

KJ21 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.
AMP Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness [ignoring God’s law by action or neglect or by tolerating wrongdoing—being unrestrained by His commands and His will].
AMPC Everyone who commits (practices) sin is guilty of lawlessness; for [that is what] sin is, lawlessness (the breaking, violating of God’s law by transgression or neglect—being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will).
BRG Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
CJB Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah — indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
CEV Everyone who sins breaks God’s law, because sin is the same as breaking God’s law.
ERV Anyone who sins breaks God’s law. Yes, sinning is the same as living against God’s law.
EXB The person [L Everyone] who ·sins [commits sin] ·breaks God’s law [commits lawlessness/iniquity; C referring to the false teachers; 2:19–20]. Yes, sin is ·living against God’s law [lawlessness; iniquity].
GNV Whosoever commiteth sin, transgresseth also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law.
GW Those who live sinful lives are disobeying God. Sin is disobedience. (to what? -- Law)
GNT Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law.
HCSB Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law.
ICB When a person sins, he breaks God’s law. Yes, sinning is the same as living against God’s law.
ISV Everyone who keeps living in sin also practices disobedience. In fact, sin is disobedience.
PHILLIPS Everyone who commits sin breaks God’s law, for that is what sin is, by definition—a breaking of God’s law. You know, moreover, that Christ became man for the purpose of removing sin, and he himself was quite free from sin. The man who lives “in Christ” does not habitually sin. The regular sinner has never seen or known him.
KJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
AKJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
NIRV Everyone who sins breaks the law. In fact, breaking the law is sin.
NLVThe person who keeps on sinning is guilty of not obeying the Law of God. For sin is breaking the Law of God.
NLT Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.
OJB Everyone practicing chet also does averah, and chet is averah al HaTorah.
TPT Anyone who indulges in sin lives in moral anarchy, for the definition of sin is breaking God’s law.
RGT Whoever commits sin, also transgresses the Law. For sin is the transgression of the Law.
WE Everyone who does wrong things is breaking God's law. Doing wrong things is breaking the law.

=======================

My point is not that "transgression of the Law" is not "Breaking the Law" and is not also "Lawlessness"

And in context - 1 John 5:3 reminds us that his context for the term is "God's Commandments" -- "This IS the Love of God that we keep His Commandments"

I think GDL was agreeing with you….. but correct me @GDL if I am wrong.

 

[expos4ever]

By contrast - I choose the Word of God for that moral compass where "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 as Paul says.

You may choose whatever you like, but readers will know that the category "commandments of God" obviously does not necessarily include anything the Law of Moses.

If they do not know this, they are not Biblically literate as God issued commandments before the Law was given and Jesus, as God, issued commandments after the Law was given.

In both cases, such commandments are clearly not part of the Law of Moses. And, therefore, when we read something about keeping the "commandments of God", this does necessarily mean that any of the elements of the Law of Moses are included.

 

[expos4ever]

All the world guilty because of God's Law that defines what sin is - for "ALL have sinned" Rom 3:23
The NT definition for that is "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

First question: According to Biblegateway, what percentage of english translations make an explicit connection between sin and the law. And what percentage connect sin to more general categories, such as lawlessness and iniquity - categories that, of course, entail no necessary connection to the Law of Moses?

I will be eagerly looking forward to your answer.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There may not be a scripture that says we are to obey the church.

True, which is why I follow God’s Word over churches, we all have access to bibles so there is no excuse not to verify what a pastor is saying with the Word of God. We are accountable for Truth 2 Thes 2:10, if we have access to God’s Word. Some truth Psalms 119:151 is more easy to understand than others and God made for certain man could easily understand the Ten Commandment. He personally wrote it and personally spoke it and even a child could understand. The church can’t save us only Jesus saves, so for me that is who I choose to follow and obey.

That's why I was saying we become our own authority on the scriptures

We are free to self-law and self-righteousness I prefer God’s righteousness Psalms 119:172 His works Exodus 32:16 as our works can’t save or sanctify only God can Ezekiel 20:12 through the truth of His Word. John 17:17. Scripture promises that the Holy Spirit will teach everything God said, not what man says.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

The Holy Spirit will bring to our remembrance all the things God said. God said do not edit my commandments Deut 4:2 and after God wrote and God spoke the Ten Commandments He added no more. Deut 5:22

But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”. Matthew 4:4

If you need the catholic church to tell you what scripture means and believe they are above the Bible and have free will to edit God’s commandments you’re free to follow that path. Jesus told us to not follow mans traditions over the commandments of God Matthew 15:3-9 but He loves us so much He gives us free will so we are free to choose tradition over God’s Word, people do this daily and our choices determines the direction we are heading. Every time we choose something over God, piece by piece we are held captive in Babylon, God wants us to come out of Babylon and embrace His Truth. Revelation 18:4 which is how He requires us to worship Him John 4:23-24 and all His commandments are Truth. Psalms 119:151

Is the Book of Enoch scripture? Most Christians say no, but some say yes. Those who say yes say that it is referenced in the Gospels more often than any other scripture.

Yes thats a popular choice if choosing the RCC route….

But we can each decide, just as we can each decide how to translate "the Lord's Day".

True we can call a raven purple, we have free will, but you will find no such scripture that says Sunday is the holy day of the Lord thy God, or Jesus is Lord of the first day, or God sanctified and blessed the first day or that the first day is a commandment of the Lord thy God or the day to honor Him, thus saith the Lord. Those scriptures God revealed as only the seventh day Sabbath so we have two roads and one path. Romans 6:16

The wide path Jesus warns the majority take and it leads to destruction, Jesus tells us to take the narrow path and the Word of God is the light to our path, Psalms 119:105

Anyway, this is my last email on my this subject and if you wish to respond thats fine, I might sign out now, so take care and wish you well in seeking His Truth.

 

[expos4ever]

Let's examine this claim that "Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued "unit of TEN" for Christians today"

While such a claim is something to consider, the following should be considered:

First, is this claim factually true? I have no reason to believe it is not, but it is fair to raise this question

Second, do these statements from these denominations actually reflect the consensus view of the "man in the pew". This seems doubtful to me as no Christian at all, of my personal acquaintance, believes in Sabbath observance. So even if some doctrine is affirmed in some document written, in some cases, hundreds of year ago, if that doctrine is widely rejected by members of that denomination, then of what relevance is said affirmation?

Third, this kind of statement really does stray into "appeal to authority" fallacy territory.

 

[GDL]

Same thing as "Sin is transgression of the Law"

The word is lawlessness no matter how different translations translate it. nomos is translated law - anomos negates law. The word is anomia = lawlessness. Transgression is a translation typically applied to different words and fairly inconsistently even though the different words are giving us a bit different information/perspective about sin.

My point is not that "transgression of the Law" is not "Breaking the Law" and is not also "Lawlessness"

And in context - 1 John 5:3 reminds us that his context for the term is "God's Commandments" -- "This IS the Love of God that we keep His Commandments"

Double negatives. It's almost sundown on the 6th day & I'm brain weary.

So, comparing 1John3:4 and surrounding, 1John5:3 keeping God's commandments is not being lawless. not doing lawlessness/sin.

 

[GDL]

I think GDL was agreeing with you….. but correct me @GDL if I am wrong.

You're correct. Thank you. Just seeking accuracy. With verses like Matt7:23 "lawlessness" is some precision I personally like to keep clear.

 

[GDL]

Third, this kind of statement really does stray into "appeal to authority" fallacy territory.

Like personal "irrefutable" analogies.

 

[HIM]

"the law fulfilled its role and can be retired" yet it's now being put in minds & written on hearts (the new ministry @HIM mentions), there remains a lawful use of law (1Tim1:8), and so many other Scriptures that speak in part against your suggestion.

Indeed, as explained in the passages.

1Tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Tim 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Hebrew as Greek is an interesting language as you all know. The Point in saying that is the Decalogue can be understood two ways. One being as most read it is, a list of thou shall nots. As in forbidden. Another way it can be understood is being a list of things we won't do.

But you both know that Paul's use of the word law here in Timothy is not just in reference to the Ten. It is of the Book of the Law.

We who believe the 10 commandments are set aside can legitimately claim that God gives us another "moral compass" to guide our actions. Clearly, this is at least plausible - who are we to tell God that He cannot "replace" his 10 commandment with another means of providing us with moral guidance?

The Law on parchment and tables of stone tell us what sin is and keep us in sound doctrine as Paul through Christ show us explicitly in Timothy. The law, His Word in our hearts through His Spirit changes us so that we don't do the things that we would having crucified the flesh and the affections thereof, being of and in Christ.

The antinomianism of some is tragic at minimum.

The Ten were not even a question prior to the 20 century.

 

[Leaf473]

I already addressed that one here

The point remains as stated there. If you would like to address it -- go ahead.

I didn't say tradition instead of the Bible, I said lend some weight

We incline our ears

Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 4:20 - King James Version

My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[trophy33]

The Ten were not even a question prior to the 20 century.

"As regards this external observance, this commandment [about Sabbath] was given to the Jews alone"
Luther's Large Catechism, 1529

"SUPERSTITION. In this connection we do not yield to the Jewish observance and to superstitions. For we do not believe that one day is any holier than another, or think that rest in itself is acceptable to God. Moreover, we celebrate the Lord's Day and not the Sabbath as a free observance."
The Second Helvetic Confession, 1562

 

[Leaf473]

Already addressed in the OP -- consider reading it.

Yes, you make a good case in English. Which paragraph are you looking at that talks about the Greek?

 

[Leaf473]

Consider reading the OP - there we have actual scripture on the subject.

You keep circling back to the answers already given in the first three posts of page 1 -- as if you have not read them.

You believe the phrase occurs more than once?

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ

www.biblegateway.com