why do so many guys complain about women having high standards?

[trophy33]

But that male has a preference too. He's not going to commit to her if he doesn't want to. If a man is a 9, then it's not just the female 1-5s that want him, but also the 6-9s that want him. Why would he settle for a 5 if he can bag a 9? If he's the kind of guy who will use a woman for sex he might have a 5 for a one night stand or have her on the side, but he has no reason to wife her because the other 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, and 9s want a piece of him too and he can get them. If she wants to be a wife, it would behoove her to be content with the men who would actually be willing to wife her up, and to honor and cherish the man who does instead of "settling" for him. He's probably going to be another 5 himself.

Rational creatures can weight the effort needed to be put into having an average female and compare it to what is the real value of the female, sure.

But both in nature and in most of the current dating scene, the sexual act is the only thing that matters to "top" males. And they are willing to go much lower than their level for that.

When we are talking about marriage or some other more long term effort, we can see that men are not willing to legally bind to a woman they are willing to sleep with. All those "friends with benefits, situationships" and tons of other names for that are clear - the female is good enough for some fun, but not good enough to seriously live with.

 

[bèlla]

I think what we're seeing nowadays (with 20% of men getting 80% of women, or whatever the statistic is) is what we would have always seen, if it had been an option before relatively recently. But now that the online world allows women to hold out for a hot guy in another state or country if she's surrounded by uggos in her lousy little podunk town, guys in the same little podunk town don't like it.

You're absolutely right.

Every ideology needs a hook. Something within the recipient that makes it appealing. Otherwise, its dimissed. Feminism didn't create the problem. It exploited what already existed. That's why the message resonated. They wanted autonomy. What we see today is the natural outworking of the result.

In a roundabout way it's a truth serum. If given the choice what would she do? Self-preservation was the motivation long ago. She needed provision and it exceeded the unpleasant parts. She wasn't oblivious to his shortcomings. She overlooked them in deference to greater needs. Namely hers and the children.

Once upon a time if you had a healthy dowry you'd marry well. They were significantly more appealing than others who lacked the same. Superficiality is ever present. It comes in different guises. There's nothing new under the sun.

The stumbling block for most isn't an absence of options. There's people who love the Lord with good character around the world. But they may not arrive in the guise you prefer and that's the rub. They may lack the beauty, physique, wealth, personality or lifestyle you want. That's the price. Accept it or remain alone.

This reminds me of the serenity prayer...

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

This is where things stand. Complaining won't change it. If we focus less on what we've lost and can't attain and more on what exists and remains to be seen we'd be less distraught. There's a lot of single believers desiring marriage. They're not at the top of the heap. They're ordinary folks who love the Lord and want to share their life with someone. We bypass them every day and never notice the possibility in our midst. Who's to blame?

~bella

 

[MehGuy]

But these preferences are unnatural. They are driven by self-destructive desires brought by this corrupt and self-destructive society.

No other species has been this destructive, self-destructive as mankind. That's what makes it unnatural. We're a plague upon this planet, the worst of its kind.

What preferences are you talking about?

I'm not really sure what you're talking about? I've read more young single women are dating compared to young single men. I suspect that pretty much means women are going for older men who are more established. I see nothing wrong with that. Encourages young men to make the best of their talents... and to settle down with a younger woman who still have a strong feminine vibe behind her.

I doubt too many women are gearing up to be part of some harem.

I do think we live in two different worlds. You live in a spiritual one... and me more of an atheistic evolutionary one. Maybe some of our impulses are destructive... but that doesn't mean they're not natural.

My issue is feminists being lopsided... as a short man.. I'm never going to have the same care about my body image issues are women are with theirs. So, I see no reason to promote something that isn't going to help me.. and in fact probably make things worse for me. I said in another thread, it's only ugly women who've mocked me in the past for my short height... I don't need these women to have any more undeserved confidence than they already have. Lol.

 

[MehGuy]

While I believe men on average evolved to find younger women more feminine and thus attractive... I still think social messaging can screw with the mind. Men are doing bad compared to women when it comes to education. I believe part of this is because men have been brainwashed to think that a 35-year-old woman is just as feminine and attractive as a 25-year-old woman. For many men.. the idea of working hard and making a good living... only to be paired with an early 30s single woman (probably overweight too) doesn't inspire much initiative.

Hopefully younger women are indeed going for older men who are more accomplished. Our generation might be doomed due to wacky feminist ideas... but I do hope it inspires the next generation of men to have a more natural and proper understanding of what we actually find feminine and attractive. And to put their motivations to attain such women to better use.

That's the thing... evolved preferences can be lied about it and for a time discouraged... but it always will creep back.

 

[dzheremi]

My issue is feminists being lopsided... as a short man.. I'm never going to have the same care about my body image issues are women are with theirs. So, I see no reason to promote something that isn't going to help me.. and in fact probably make things worse for me. I said in another thread, it's only ugly women who've mocked me in the past for my short height... I don't need these women to have any more undeserved confidence than they already have. Lol.

As a fellow short man (dad was 5'8", mom was 5'2", so I was never going to be anything but short), I have to wonder aloud why it is that you would let something you already know you aren't going to get support for determine your approach to a political movement that is about much more than this one issue. You and I both know that short men are the butt of a lot of jokes and don't really get the same consideration as taller men do, but what does that have to do with things like addressing domestic violence, the paltry and patchy reality of maternity leave, lingering misogynistic practices in certain areas of society, etc.?

I don't mean to come across like a jerk here, so I hope this doesn't read that way, but it's hard to see this kind of rejection as being rooted in concerns about balance when it is expressed by focusing on one rather superficial (still important, but superficial) aspect of life that you feel that feminism could be more helpful towards men about. That approach doesn't strike me as very balanced either.

 

[timewerx]

What preferences are you talking about?

I'm not really sure what you're talking about? I've read more young single women are dating compared to young single men. I suspect that pretty much means women are going for older men who are more established. I see nothing wrong with that. Encourages young men to make the best of their talents... and to settle down with a younger woman who still have a strong feminine vibe behind her.

Preferences like excessive greed which is a form of mental illness as it destroys the natural balance of order in our environment. It makes humanity function like a disease or cancer or a plague upon this world.

What makes cancer disease so deadly is that cells that have become cancerous have undergone runaway greed for resources and reproduction. Both signs displayed by humanity today like overpopulation and senseless greed.

Ofc society don't see it as mental illness or a problem if it makes a lot of money. It only cares about money with little regards for everything else.

I do think we live in two different worlds. You live in a spiritual one... and me more of an atheistic evolutionary one.

Fair enough, let's talk about evolution then!

Women going for older men devolves our genetic quality. While most people would assume genetic expression is permanent across all ages. Unfortunately, it's not. The quality goes down with age and it gets even worse with unhealthy lifestyle. Changes, deterioration of genetic expression / quality can be passed down to your offspring and thus, heritable!

So women are going for mentally ill men (who are sick in the head with excessive greed) with deteriorating genetic quality as well as having reduced chances of survival during extinction level cataclysms due to their choice of taller/bigger/heavier guys.

 

[pc_76]

its common sense that woman want a good looking, tall , strong guy who has money. why would woman settle for average/unattractive short men who dont have money when they can get much better? stop trying to change women and tell them who they should date and be together with. you cant change biology. women work the way they do because thats how God made them. some guys act like they are owned something.

You could also say that men shouldn't settle. That's the way God made guys.

And this kind of sounds like "You are only 5'7 and average looking, you don't deserve the kind of women you desire".

 

[pc_76]

While I believe it's a good thing for both genders to make peace and accept that we all have our preferences... with mainstream feminism and the mocking of men who dare to speak about their issues... I don't really see how it will ever be possible for the current generation.

Unless you controlled the media and academy, or create your own substitute and try to recede the influence of the other ones.

 

[pc_76]

While I believe it's a good thing for both genders to make peace and accept that we all have our preferences... with mainstream feminism and the mocking of men who dare to speak about their issues... I don't really see how it will ever be possible for the current generation.

I dream of a woman with natural platinum blond hair.

 

[pc_76]

But these preferences are unnatural. They are driven by self-destructive desires brought by this corrupt and self-destructive society.

No other species has been this destructive, self-destructive as mankind. That's what makes it unnatural. We're a plague upon this planet, the worst of its kind.

Not it isn't bad in and of itself. God literally created the male and female bodies to look a certain way.

What kind of God assuming he is a loving God would allow something and even initially call it "good" and then tell his creation that it's unhealthy to think that way? It is like being taunted with something. And why retroactively declare it bad or sin for everybody else because some people have chosen to abuse it? That sounds a bit tyrannical.

 

[pc_76]

Actually, its quite common in nature that females create harems around few top males.

So, I would argue that this behavior is in fact natural. Monogamy is a social and religious rule that came later, because that natural behavior makes higher, more civilized societies, unstable.

Modern dating allowed this natural behavior to make a comeback. Modern monogamous men have basically two choices: either be the top man for the girl you want or stay single and live your life without this constant biological and psychological struggle/drama.

I think it's cruel. Even more so when you consider that there isn't anymore opposite-sex companionship model of relationship in Heaven. Isn't Heaven supposed to be the last hope for humanity?

 

[dzheremi]

And this kind of sounds like "You are only 5'7 and average looking, you don't deserve the kind of women you desire".

I'm not the OP, so apologies for butting in, but I do have to ask: You may not like it, but what's wrong with recognizing that this is reality? I don't believe in numerically rating people, but because that's the world that we live in, I think it is appropriate to point out that if you are a 5 and you are holding out for a 10, you're either going to be continually disappointed and alone, or you're going to have to try to adjust the way that you judge the quality of potential partners so as to put other things ahead of their numerical rating. It's just like if you were to go apartment or house-hunting: you'd have a lot better luck actually being honest with yourself about your budget, and ranking what features you are willing to pay for accordingly, than telling yourself or others around you that money is no object, as though wanting reality to be other than how it is will actually change the amount in your bank account or credit line.

As distasteful as it is to just come out and say it, all of us -- from the most beautiful model to the homeliest bridge troll -- only have so many attributes we can put forward when trying to show potential partners our best selves. I can put any number for my height in a dating profile, for instance, but a woman who has said "No one under 6 feet tall, please" would be completely justified in rejecting me for not meeting her height standard in reality, even if I have a slew of other attractive (or, let's be honest here, I would hope at least mitigating! ) qualities that I would rather focus on, and would rather that she focus on. That's why these "6 feet or above" women are all dead to me, as I am to them. What I wouldn't do in response to this situation is react by saying something like "So you think that because I don't meet some standard I don't deserve to date you anyway? Well that's ridiculous." That's an entitled attitude, and entitlement can make even the most physically beautiful person downright ugly.

 

[trophy33]

I think it's cruel. Even more so when you consider that there isn't anymore opposite-sex companionship model of relationship in Heaven. Isn't Heaven supposed to be the last hope for humanity?

Its very possible to be happy as a single man and it has probably much higher chance of happiness than being in an average modern relationship.

We do not need to be slaves to our primitive fleshy/animal desires, we can tame them with our human rationality. Also the opposite is true - if we keep stimulating it, we will need more and more and it will enslave us.

Without those desires there is not much left on the table as a reason for all the effort, resources and time investment into today's mating.

But its also dependent on your age, if you are from teen boy to lets say 30, I understand the nature is probably strong in you. But it should be much easier later, if you keep the taming effort and if you will see through the game and its "ugly" rules. The best way to win the game is to stop playing it.

 

[timewerx]

Not it isn't bad in and of itself. God literally created the male and female bodies to look a certain way.

What kind of God assuming he is a loving God would allow something and even initially call it "good" and then tell his creation that it's unhealthy to think that way? It is like being taunted with something. And why retroactively declare it bad or sin for everybody else because some people have chosen to abuse it? That sounds a bit tyrannical.

Did you even read the title of this thread?

We've been talking about preferences in the opposite sex in terms of partnership and marriage the whole time

Not whether being attracted to the opposite sex is good or evil.

What I've been explaining so far is that it is unhealthy / destructive to make money and greed a strong factor to become attracted to someone. Personality traits can be passed on to our offspring.

If everyone is observing everyone has gone cold and crazy, look no further than the fact, it's the cold, greedy, and mentally ill people who are getting married and having children.

 

[MehGuy]

As a fellow short man (dad was 5'8", mom was 5'2", so I was never going to be anything but short), I have to wonder aloud why it is that you would let something you already know you aren't going to get support for determine your approach to a political movement that is about much more than this one issue. You and I both know that short men are the butt of a lot of jokes and don't really get the same consideration as taller men do, but what does that have to do with things like addressing domestic violence, the paltry and patchy reality of maternity leave, lingering misogynistic practices in certain areas of society, etc.?

I don't mean to come across like a jerk here, so I hope this doesn't read that way, but it's hard to see this kind of rejection as being rooted in concerns about balance when it is expressed by focusing on one rather superficial (still important, but superficial) aspect of life that you feel that feminism could be more helpful towards men about. That approach doesn't strike me as very balanced either.

I was against feminism way before I considered height. My issues with feminism go much deeper than that.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I think it goes both ways, but I agree you definitely primarily see it with men complaining about women around here.

I just never understood it. If somebody has taste that excludes you, do you really think you’re going to fix anything by whining about it? Just move on, that wasn’t your person. People are allowed to have preferences whether another person agrees with them or not.

I will say though, people may benefit from really reflecting on their laundry list of preferences. I find it a lot now on dating sites. These men with no jobs, aren’t particularly good looking, really have nothing that suggests them will write out this long list on their profile of all the things the woman they are looking for must be to be worthy of them. If you have a huge list of standards, you may want to ask yourself if you’re the kind of person somebody who lives up to those standards would be looking for.

When I read up on Marry HIm: The case for settling for Mr Good Enough....it expressed stats when single women were interviewed about their criteria, they had a long list, wheras men, a very short list of criteria.

The book points the finger at mostly women being too unrealistic in their expectations and perhaps should trim down their list

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I will say though, people may benefit from really reflecting on their laundry list of preferences. I find it a lot now on dating sites. These men with no jobs, aren’t particularly good looking, really have nothing that suggests them will write out this long list on their profile of all the things the woman they are looking for must be to be worthy of them.

How do you know they have no jobs?

Anyways, I'm the kind of guy that's pretty flexible to what I look for in the looks of women, and when I would reach to them, I'd be kind of shocked that I "wasn't their type". I had one woman thought I was too skinny, when I know I weigh quite average (I do have meat on my bones, lol). SO I didn't know what she was talkinga bout, unless she's looking for some hulking dude.

And she wasn't much to look at herself.

 

[timewerx]

When I read up on Marry HIm: The case for settling for Mr Good Enough....it expressed stats when single women were interviewed about their criteria, they had a long list, wheras men, a very short list of criteria.

The book points the finger at mostly women being too unrealistic in their expectations and perhaps should trim down their list

A long list of expectations is a recipe for unhappy marriage even if the guy meets all of them because people change, no one stays the same.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I'll leave this here...feels ironic similar topics are popping up simultaneously .

 

[dzheremi]

I'll leave this here...feels ironic similar topics are popping up simultaneously .

What are most men under 30 doing about this? I haven't been in that age group in over a decade by now, but my 20s were a pretty active time in my romantic life, and I don't think I possess much that the average man wouldn't be able to say he also possesses. If you can't date in your 20s, that suggests that your 30s and beyond will be even more difficult, as the prospects definitely thin out in a lot of ways.