What was Jesus’ purpose if sins were forgiven before His Incarnation?

[Brightfame52]

gup20

Jesus was both God & man. He died physically & spiritually paying the full penalty for sin & death. If Jesus didn’t die spiritually, I wonder what being you believe pays our spiritual penalty so that we might be saved?

So are the ones He died for exonerated, saved from the penalty of sin and death by His death for them alone ?

 

[Gup20]

What was not presented was any Biblical evidence nor statement of the Christian being "adopted" by Abraham, only your assertion of such,
not to mention that ole Abe was dead centuries before there was a Christian, and was in no position to "adopt" anyone, as God is able to do now.

I gave many verses to support my claim & you haven’t dealt with any of them.

Abraham is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised,"
in that he was the predecessor ("father") of all who are made righteous by faith in the promise (Ge 15:6, seed--Christ, Gal 3:16), not by law-keeping.
Abraham was the father of (the "nation" of) those made righteous by faith in the promise (Christ),
as George Washington is the father of this nation, in that both are the first, the predecessor--
Abraham of righteousness by faith in the promise (Christ), and George Washington of elected leadership to the presidency.

Abraham is the “father” not the ancestor.

The Jews certainly had words & concepts for ancestors, for example:

Leviticus 26:45 (NASB95) ‘But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the LORD.’”

Deuteronomy 19:14 (NASB95) “You shall not move your neighbor’s boundary mark, which the ancestors have set, in your inheritance which you will inherit in the land that the LORD your God gives you to possess.

But Abraham isn’t their ancestor, but their father.

There is only one way of justification (righteousness); i.e., faith (Ro 4:12).
Abraham has nothing to do with the righteousness of the born-again (Ro 1:17, Ro 3:21-22, Php 3:9),
just as George Washington has nothing to do with the election of today's presidents.

The person in Romans 4:12 is Abraham.

Romans 1:16-17 (NASB95) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB95) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Being Abraham’s sons is what qualifies you for Abraham’s blessing.

Galatians 3:14 (NASB95) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Luke 19:9 (NASB95)
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

Hebrews 2:16 (NASB95)
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

Are you paying attention yet? Since it was Gods righteousness promised & given to Abraham, we who are the sons of Abraham inherit God’s righteousness from him, not his own.

But Abraham was dead and gone for almost 2000 years before Christ granted his own righteousness to Abraham.
So those who believed in the promise (Christ) for the next almost 2,000 years after Abraham were not made righteous by faith as was Abraham?
So Christ inherited his righteousness from Abraham, but all Abraham's descendants for almost 2,000 years prior to Christ did not?

Those for 2000 years, like Abraham, waited for Christ’s day. Christ first had to give up His righteousness (his life) before the Abrahamic covenant had any righteousness to distribute. Christ was the primary intended recipient of the covenant.

Galatians 3:19 (NASB95) Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

What promise? What promise was made to the seed? Jesus is the seed to whom the promise was made, but what promise did God make to Jesus through his covenant with Abraham?

Romans 4:13 (NASB95)
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Galatians 3:14 (NASB95) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Did Jesus receive what was promised to Him by God through Abraham?

Acts 2:33 (NASB95) “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (NASB95) 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

Colossians 1:18 (NASB95)
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

I’m not claiming that Abraham was greater than Christ or that Abraham had righteousness in and of himself - clearly, he spent 2,000 years in Hell… Jesus only spent 3 days in Hell separated from God. Abraham was the vehicle God used to bless the world. In him all the nations of the earth would be blessed - which is to say through Abraham’s covenant Christ would bless the world. It want Abraham’s doing, but Gods doing through him.

Absolutely no Biblical testimony to such a preposterous scenario. . .where the divine Son of God inherits his righteousness from fallen man.

He got back His own righteousness. When Christ became a curse, God put the iniquity of the entire world upon Him, but His righteousness which he inherited back to himself through God’s promise to Him (in Abraham’s covenant) was more than potent enough to overcome the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:6 (NASB95) All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

Romans 5:17 (NASB95) For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

If Christ claimed his righteousness as his own, we keep our sin. But if Christ gives His righteousness into the covenant, then He not only gets it back (because God promised Him He would), but He gets to share it with us as well - everyone else with the same faith in Him which Abraham had stands to qualify to inherit.

Where does it say we receive righteousness as an "inheritance" from Abraham?
Everywhere does it say those who are of the faith of Abraham (one doesn't inherit his faith) receive righteousness by faith as did Abraham (Ro 4:1-11).

Galatians 3:9 (NASB95) So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Romans 4:11 (NASB95) and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Abraham being the father of all who believe is so that righteousness might be credited to all who believe.

No, I am saying what I said, that Abraham was not the conduit, means, cause, etc. of being in Christ.
Only faith in Christ (the promise) is the conduit, means, cause, etc. of being in Christ.

That is the point Calvin & Arminius got wrong. They both believed this erroneous statement. The promise was made to Abraham, so the fulfillment of the promise is the fulfillment of Abraham’s covenant. Faith doesn’t qualify (directly) for righteousness. Kinship qualifies for righteousness because the promise was made to Abraham & to his descendants. So to receive what was promised to Abraham, you must be either Abraham or his descendant. But it is not the physical descendants, but the spiritual descendants - those who walk in the steps of faith of Abraham to whom the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached, and whom believed the gospel 2,000 years before the Holy Spirit would be given to indwell the hearts of man. Abraham believed while uncircumcised in heart or flesh.

Hebrews 2:16 (NASB95)
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

Luke 19:9 (NASB95)
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

It's not about the power of the promise. It's about God's condition for the promise. . .righteousness is conditioned on faith in Christ.
If it were simply about the infinite power of the promise, why attach a condition of faith to the promise of righteousness?

You stated the promise had no power. I argued there was much power in the promise. You seem to be conceding the point.

I agree with you. The promised righteousness is conditional on faith, but not because faith qualifies us for righteousness, but because God promised the descendants righteousness and faith qualifies one as a descendant.

One of Calvin’s troubles is he couldn’t accept that the will of man could bend the will of God. He reasoned that it would damage the sovereignty of God if He subjected His will to man’s will. He posited the notions of total depravity & irresistible grace to get around this problem.

But these cease to be a problem if faith & righteousness have an indirect relationship. If faith qualifies us for kinship and THEN righteousness is a direct result of kinship, the problem resolved itself. Then it is the promise God made to Abraham that his descendants would be righteous which motivates God, not the will of the believer. For even a totally depraved man can choose human adoption.

Deuteronomy 30:11 (NASB95) “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

 

[Gup20]

gup20


So are the ones He died for exonerated, saved from the penalty of sin and death by His death for them alone ?

Yes. However not only are they redeemed, but they are also given righteousness & eternal life.

 

[Clare73]

I gave many verses to support my claim & you haven’t dealt with any of them.

Previously addressed. . .

The record disagrees with you. . .none of them stating "adopted" sons of Abraham.

Abraham is the “father” not the ancestor.

Previously addressed. . .

The Jews certainly had words & concepts for ancestors, for example:
26:45 (NASB95) ‘But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the LORD.’”
Deuteronomy 19:14 (NASB95) “You shall not move your neighbor’s boundary mark, which the ancestors have set, in your inheritance which you will inherit in the land that the LORD your God gives you to possess.
But Abraham isn’t their ancestor, but their father.
The person in Romans 4:12 is Abraham.
Romans 1:16-17 (NASB95) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB95) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Being Abraham’s sons is what qualifies you for Abraham’s blessing.

Previously addressed. . .

We are Abraham's son by and only in Christ (Gal 3:29).

Galatians 3:14 (NASB95) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Luke 19:9 (NASB95)
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:16 (NASB95)
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Are you paying attention yet? Since

it was Gods righteousness promised & given to Abraham,

Previously addressed. . .

You have Bibically shown no promise of righteousness to Abraham, . .the promises to Abraham were seed and an everlasting possession.

we who are the sons of Abraham inherit God’s righteousness from him, not his own.

Previously addressed. . .

Abraham's righteousness is inherited by no one, righteousness is only from God and only by one's own faith in Jesus Christ (Ro 1:17, Ro 3:22, Ro 4:3, Ro 4:5-6, Ro 4:9, Ro 4:13, Ro 4:22).

You stated the promise had no power. I argued there was much power in the promise. You seem to be conceding the point.

Previously addressed. . .

The promise of seed is not about nor based on power. . .while righteousness, by God's requirement, is about and based on faith alone, whereby it is imputed (credited, applied). (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3)

You are just repeating the same arguments which have been addressed, and wherein you have not Biblically demonstrated any error in my responses.

Conclusion:
You have not Biblically demonstrated in
your post #163 any error in
my post #161, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #160, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #158, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #154.

 

[Clare73]

You may agree with Clare, but her arguments are very weak - some were just pure nonsense.

Are you sure about that?

The following record shows the weakness is in your understanding of the NT.

You have not Biblically demonstrated in
your post #163 any error in
my post #160, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #159, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #158, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #154, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #150, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #149, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #146, Biblically demonstrating the grievous errors of
your post #144, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #141, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #140, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #139, Biblically demonstrating the error of
your post #138, above.

So the weakness is not in my Biblical demonstrations, rather the weakness is in your understanding of the NT which fails to Biblically demonstrate any errors in my posts.

And also the question (from nearly a month ago, post #127) still remains:
"May I ask, what is causing your extra-Biblical doctrine which is holding you back from seeing the plain NT fact that "in Christ" we are descendants of Abraham (Gal 3:28-29), just as Christ was, and not adopted sons of Abraham, just as Christ was not, and which "adoption" is nowhere stated in the NT?"

 

[Gup20]

Are you sure about that?

You have not Biblically demonstrated in
your post #163 any error in
my post #161, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #160, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #158, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #154, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #150, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #149, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #146, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #144, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #141, Biblically demonstrating the errors of
your post #140, which did not Biblically demonstrate any errors in
my post #139, Biblically demonstrating the error of
your post #138, above.

Here is an example of why the list above is meaningless:

When the scripture says "those with faith are the sons of Abraham" and then you say that is "irrelevant to adoption by Abraham" you are demonstrating either 1) you have a serious lack of reading comprehension (which based on your posts, I doubt), or 2) an apriori committment to an opposing point of view which will not allow you to take the plain meaning of the text. When it says you are the sons of Abraham because of faith and that is the reason for being blessed along with Abraham, and when it is (or should be) self-evident that you were not physically concieved by Abraham and Sarah, one would hope you to be able to comprehend that means you are an adopted descendant by father Abraham who is the father (not ancestor) of all who believe.

When Jesus said to Zacheus:

Luk 19:9 NASB95 - 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.​

Zacheus was born a Jew, so why would Jesus say "today you are saved because you are a son of Abraham." It is because Zacheus wasn't qualified as a spiritual descendant until he had the same faith in Jesus which Abraham had. We see that in John 8 as well:

Jhn 8:31-44, 56-58 NASB95 - 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, [then] you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 "I speak the things which I have seen with [My] Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from [your] father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? [It is] because you cannot hear My word. 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies. ... 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad." 57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."​

Doing what Abraham did (believing the gospel) makes you Abraham's child. Jesus says they cannot hear His word. Faith comes by hearing ... so he's saying they do not have faith in him and are therefore disqualified as descendants of God and of Abraham and instead qualified as the seed or descendant of Satan.

Gen 3:15 NASB95 - 15 (said to the serpent) And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."​

​

Gal 4:4 NASB95 - 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,​

​

​

 

[Clare73]

Here is an example of why the list above is meaningless:

View attachment 330825
When the scripture says "those with faith are the sons of Abraham" and then you say that is "irrelevant to adoption by Abraham"

Previously litigated. . .will not be litigating it again.
(See post #139, to which your response in post #140 did not Biblically demonstrate any error.)

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes. However not only are they redeemed, but they are also given righteousness & eternal life.

So you believe everyone Christ died for is saved ?

 

[Gup20]

So you believe everyone Christ died for is saved ?

I know that Calvin said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all humans will be resurrected from Adam’s universal judgement, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.

Acts 24:15​

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

​

John 5:28​

“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,​

29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

​

Revelation 21:8​

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

​

Daniel 12:1​

Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.​

2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

So Christ’s work resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire. Those with faith inherit eternal life in the resurrection.

Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:

Numbers 14:18​

The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.​

​

Ezekiel 18:20​

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original universal judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Then, as John 5:28 says, there will be a resurrection of all – the good to a resurrection of life, and the evil to a resurrection of a second judgment and a second death.

2 Timothy 1:10​

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

Notice how death (Adam’s death judgment) is abolished by Christ’s appearing, not by his sacrificial death and resurrection. The very presence of a single person without sin into the world necessitates a repeal (abolishing) of Adam’s death judgment… a vacating of the universal judgment in lieu of individual judgments at the Great White Throne.

Revelation 20:11-15 (NASB95) 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

This is why Calvin’s Limited atonement falls short. Christ has a universal effect on repealing Adam’s death judgement, but an individual effect on each of our individual judgements at the great white throne judgement.

Romans 5:12 (NASB95) Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--​

​

Romans 5:16 (NASB95) The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.​

17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​

Consider: Adam’s death judgement was universal. For a single transgression, Adam, Eve, all of their descendants, the ground, plants, animals, … everything all of creation … fell under a curse. For a universal resurrection, then, only 1 sin would have to be forgiven. But Rom 5:16 says that the free gift of righteous applies to MANY transgressions, not the 1. Therefore Christ’s righteousness covers us in the individual judgement not Adam’s universal judgement. Adam’s universal judgement is ABOLISHED or repealed so that in its place the individual judgements can stand. So Christ has BOTH a universal affect and an individual affect.

This makes sense. A universal judgement remains just & justified so long as none are righteous, but as soon as a righteous one appears, it is no longer just, and must be repealed in lieu of individual judgements.

Revelation 5:1-10 (NASB95) 1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.” 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”​

Edit:
As an aside, I find a potentially fascinating notion in Rev 5 (above). John (who wrote the gospel of John & the book of revelation) always refers to himself in the 3rd person. For example:

John 19:26-27 (NASB95) 26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.​

I suspect the 24 elders are the 12 sons of Jacob & the 12 disciples of Jesus. Wouldn’t it be wild if John was the one who spoke to himself in Rev 5:5?

It also stands to reason if Adam’s judgement is repealed that every animal would also be resurrected so maybe we get back all the species we’ve lost to time & death. I have only tenuous links to that notion so I hold to it loosely and not dogmatically.

 

[Gup20]

Previously litigated. . .will not be litigating it again.
(See post #139, to which your response in post #140 did not Biblically demonstrate any error.)

The entirely of your argument (one passage without context):

Darn!. . .one can't even buy a compliment these days!

Please present the text where we are adopted by Abraham, when the text of Gal 3:29 states that in Christ we are the seed (descendants) of Abraham. One's seed is not adopted.

My response (including the passage you referenced with its context specifically indicating adoption):

Gal 3:6-9 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Are you physically descended from Abraham or counted as a descendant of Abraham by faith?
Gal 3:29 NASB95 - 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.4:1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Gal 4:21-31 NASB95 - 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Gen 17:4-7 NASB95 - 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.

Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Your counter (lacking any Biblical support whatsoever):

I am counted as a descendant of Abraham by faith in Christ, which places me in Christ, who is the descendant of Abraham and, thereby, makes me a descendant of Abraham.
My being a descendant of Abraham has nothing to do with Abraham, and everything to do with being in Christ, who is the descendant of Abraham.

I can't find the part where we are adopted, I see only that those of faith in Christ are his seed (descendants) because they are in Christ, who is Abraham's seed.
Seed is not adopted.

Conclusion:
You have presented no Biblical demonstration of NT believers being adopted by Abraham.

As you can see your arguments were entirely insufficient. I presented 5 passages in context with nearly 40 verses in support of my argument which you failed to deal with as your rebuttal asserted only a restatement of your position without any further Biblical support.

I appreciate your desire in theory to stay true to the scripture as the source of truth, but your arguments lack the requisite substantive Biblical support. Convince me with scripture, not Calvinist dogma. As you can see, I’m certainly willing to analyze the scriptures you offer in support of your argument. I don’t consider myself the ultimate knowledge on scripture nor infallible, and am willing to consider any solid, Biblical argument, but you’ve given me too little to go on.

 

[Clare73]

The entirely of your argument (one passage without context):
My response (including the passage you referenced with its context specifically indicating adoption):

And which passage (Gal 4:4-6) you misrepresent above by omitting that the adoption is by God, not by Abraham,
thereby revealing the nature and method of your "hermeneutic."

Your counter (lacking any Biblical support whatsoever):

Contraire. . .as demonstrated in post #141, Gal 4:4-6 is everywhere about adoption by God, with Abraham nowhere being mentioned.
The lack of Biblical support is yours.

As you can see your arguments were entirely insufficient. I presented 5 passages in context with nearly 40 verses in support of my argument which you failed to deal with as your rebuttal asserted only a restatement of your position without any further Biblical support.
I appreciate your desire in theory to stay true to the scripture as the source of truth, but your arguments lack the requisite substantive Biblical support. Convince me with scripture, not Calvinist dogma. As you can see, I’m certainly willing to analyze the scriptures you offer in support of your argument. I don’t consider myself the ultimate knowledge on scripture nor infallible, and am willing to consider any solid, Biblical argument, but you’ve given me too little to go on.

Previously litigated. . .will not be litigating it again.
(See posts #160, #150, #146 and post #141, to which your response in post #144 did not Biblically demonstrate any error.)

 

[RDKirk]

Sins were not forgiven until after the cross in our linear view of time, but that forgiveness reflects backward through time from God's omniscient view of time.

It's a timey-wimey thing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ah… as I suspected. You deny the death and resurrection of Jesus. This is the antichrist spirit which rules Calvin & his followers.

Who's Calvin?

 

[RDKirk]

Who's Calvin?

The kid who had Hobbes as his imaginary friend.

 

[Gup20]

Who's Calvin?

The kid who had Hobbes as his imaginary friend.

Juan, the spicy Latin brother to John who actually wrote all his theology for him.

 

[Brightfame52]

gup20

I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection.

You are in contradiction.

 

[RDKirk]

gup20


You are in contradiction.

The statement was:

I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection.

What should have been said was: "Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection is available to all."

What was meant at the time the concept was created is that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection is not limited to persons of any particular nationality or social status, which had been considered roadblocks in the Jewish concept of salvation. Those were two major hurdles the early Jewish believers in Jesus had to leap.

 

[Brightfame52]

rdkirk

The statement was:

I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection.

Perhaps you need to first read what the poster said previously that prompted that statement from me friend.

 

[Gup20]

gup20


You are in contradiction.

What should have been said was: "Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection is available to all."

Actually, I meant exactly what I said. If you read it carefully, you will note that it is not "ultimate reconciliation." As a result of Christ's appearing, ALL will be resurrected, the righteous and wicked alike. This is because a SINGLE RIGHTEOUS PERSON makes God's universal, corporate judgement of Adam unjust. Until Christ appeared, God's corporate judgement was just because all had sinned, and none were righteous. But because a single righteous man appeared, God has to Abolish Adam's corporate judgement (repeal it) and do individual judgements in its place. As soon as Adam's judgement is repealed, it necessitates the resurrection of everyone who died under that judgement, and viola - universal resurrection. But not so fast - that doesn't mean all are reconciled to God - for then they are judged as individuals and for some there will be a second death and eternal torment and contempt in the lake of fire.

In the second judgement - The Great White Throne judgement - Christ's righteousness will be applied individually to those who believed in Christ. Christ's righteousness is not applied to Adam's death judgement (the death we all experience now) because it will at some point be abolished.

 

[RDKirk]

Actually, I meant exactly what I said. If you read it carefully, you will note that it is not "ultimate reconciliation." As a result of Christ's appearing, ALL will be resurrected, the righteous and wicked alike. This is because a SINGLE RIGHTEOUS PERSON makes God's universal, corporate judgement of Adam unjust. Until Christ appeared, God's corporate judgement was just because all had sinned, and none were righteous. But because a single righteous man appeared, God has to Abolish Adam's corporate judgement (repeal it) and do individual judgements in its place. As soon as Adam's judgement is repealed, it necessitates the resurrection of everyone who died under that judgement, and viola - universal resurrection. But not so fast - that doesn't mean all are reconciled to God - for then they are judged as individuals and for some there will be a second death and eternal torment and contempt in the lake of fire.

In the second judgement - The Great White Throne judgement - Christ's righteousness will be applied individually to those who believed in Christ. Christ's righteousness is not applied to Adam's death judgement (the death we all experience now) because it will at some point be abolished.

Scripture doesn't say all that, though.